using "normal" dough for sicilian?

[mmac06]

Hi everyone,

I am still planning on experimenting with my Sicilian style. Of course, I need to get some steel pans!
I was wondering what people think of using the following dough recipe for Sicilians. It's a one of my standard "go-to" recipes, which I'm still tinkering with. I use it for NY-Papa John's clone type pies. I do cold ferment for 2-3 days. The following recipe makes two 11" pizzas.

KABF (100%): 440.62 g  |  15.54 oz | 0.97 lbs
Water (59%): 259.97 g  |  9.17 oz | 0.57 lbs
IDY (0.28%): 1.23 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Salt (1.75%): 7.71 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Olive Oil (4.8%): 21.15 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.7 tsp | 1.57 tbsp
Honey (3.5%): 15.42 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.21 tsp | 0.74 tbsp
Total (169.33%): 746.11 g | 26.32 oz | 1.64 lbs | TF = 0.1384663
Single Ball: 373.05 g | 13.16 oz | 0.82 lbs

My question is, can I use this recipe for Sicilian style? I would keep the two-day ferment but change some the dough procedure -- I would do the standard room temp. rise in the oiled, steel baking pan and would bake it a little before adding toppings (cheese first, then sauce and toppings) and would lower the baking temp. I want to achieve the light, airy dough with crisp edges. Can I use this recipe as is, or should I make any special modifications for the Sicilian version?? I'm considering substituting some semolina flour for the KABF for a little extra crunch.

[c0mpl3x]

i would double the oil, and well oil/shortening/butter a standard dark pan

[MOCIGARS]

Most Pizza shops in my area(central pa.)  I have talked to use the same dough for regular pizza and Sicilian.

[gschwim]

Most Pizza shops in my area(central pa.)  I have talked to use the same dough for regular pizza and Sicilian.

Same here, in NYC, from what I've seen; however, the baking process is different.  For regular, round pizzas, they stretch the dough, top it and put it in the oven.  For Sicilian, they stretch the dough out in a large, flat rectangular pan and let it sit - and, presumably, rise further - in the pan before topping it.  Generally, you'll see the pan sitting on top of the oven (to get some warmth from the oven and rise faster?) and every so often, a guy would take the pan down and poke the dough with his finger to test whether the dough has risen sufficiently.

[c0mpl3x]

don't forget the slather of oil in the pan that the dough proofs on.  in my experience, the heat from the oven over-proofs the oil/dough part, causing that area of yeast to die and leave a 'fried skin' of dough in the pan, letting the rest of the dough take the fermentation gasses.

[patnugent]

I do what I learned from working at a pizza place on Long Island when I was younger.
Use regular dough. 3-4 hours before baking take it out and put it in the well oiled pan you are going to cook it in(I use a round 9" cast iron) stretch it a little in there to flatten it out but don't worry about reaching the edges right now. Keep it covered with something, i use a wash cloth(dry). Every 45-60 minutes stretch it a little bit more. When you are ready to cook, give it a thin layer of sauce and throw it in with just the sauce for a few minutes. Then take it out and top it as you please and put it in til done.

Some additional things I like to do. Sprinkle some oregano, basil and garlic into the oil before putting the dough in.
Cheese it all the way to the edge. Makes for some awesome caramelized crusts.

Will be some trial and error involved but this should leave you in a decent starting place. 

[Giggliato]

Same here, in NYC, from what I've seen; however, the baking process is different.  For regular, round pizzas, they stretch the dough, top it and put it in the oven.  For Sicilian, they stretch the dough out in a large, flat rectangular pan and let it sit - and, presumably, rise further - in the pan before topping it.  Generally, you'll see the pan sitting on top of the oven (to get some warmth from the oven and rise faster?) and every so often, a guy would take the pan down and poke the dough with his finger to test whether the dough has risen sufficiently.

Why make three different doughs when one dough will do 

[Skee]

Why make three different doughs when one dough will do 

I would love to find a dough formulation that makes a stellar NY and at least a great Sicilian (or vice versa).

[Giggliato]

I would love to find a dough formulation that makes a stellar NY and at least a great Sicilian (or vice versa).

A hydration around 65% is probably a good starting point. Use of a poolish or culture would help with the flavor profile. Other than that it basically comes down to dough management after the mix. The NY style could be balled for a long ferment while the Sicilian would be oiled/panned and cooked in a few hours. Now I'm getting hungry 

[Skee]

A hydration around 65% is probably a good starting point. Use of a poolish or culture would help with the flavor profile. Other than that it basically comes down to dough management after the mix. The NY style could be balled for a long ferment while the Sicilian would be oiled/panned and cooked in a few hours.

Have already run the gamut from 60-75% and it either makes a proper NY or a proper Sicilian, but not both.  For the next attempt I'm going to remove half the dough for a 70% DS and then keep the remainder on the dough hook for another 5-6 minutes to develop the gluten.     

[JD]

Have already run the gamut from 60-75% and it either makes a proper NY or a proper Sicilian, but not both.  For the next attempt I'm going to remove half the dough for a 70% DS and then keep the remainder on the dough hook for another 5-6 minutes to develop the gluten.     

I spoke with a family member who made pizza's 15-20 years ago about this subject, and he said they used the same dough for NY pizza & Sicilian. They just combined two NY pizza doughballs into one for a tray of Sicilian. Spread oil on the tray, stretched the dough to the corners, let proof for a few hours. Once ready, topped a little bit of sauce and into the oven for a bit, then once it was nice and puffy & firm, put the rest of the toppings. Total bake time ~30 minutes.

[Skee]

They just combined two NY pizza doughballs into one for a tray of Sicilian.

Yes, lots of places do it this way, but I have yet to find one where they can make a great Sicilian with their regular NY dough.

[JD]

Well I suppose that is subjective, because I thought it was great. All depends on what you're after though.

Yes, lots of places do it this way, but I have yet to find one where they can make a great Sicilian with their regular NY dough.

[Skee]

Well I suppose that is subjective, because I thought it was great. All depends on what you're after though.

Well, yeah, it's subjective, but if I'm eating a NY and a DS pie at the same time, I want the crusts to have different attributes, not just have one thicker than the other.  I have a batch of the regular 70% DS crust in the fridge now to cook tomorrow night, thinking about putting half the dough in the pan in the morning and doing a second kneading on the other half, then balling and making a NY, too.

[Skee]

So last night I tried the "delayed knead" method mentioned above - took 350g of standard DS dough for the pan and gave the other half two minutes of hook time on #1 and another minute on #2 (Kitchen Aide).  Dough came out a little "snotty" with broken gluten but it balled up OK and both doughs went back in the fridge for another eight hours.  At 3:30, DS pan went into a 110F oven to warm up for stretching but unfortunately my wife misunderstood the instructions and didn't put the NY ball in with it.  I gave it a couple of turns at 5:00 when I got home and a re-ball and it looked nice, then into the oven for about an hour along with the now stretched DS.

Pre-heated the oven to 550F with convection and the stone was at 625F for the NY (just fresh basil for topping).  Spun the 350g out to about 18" then let it relax to 15" on the peel, then gave it 2:30 on the stone (no convection) and 1:30 under the broiler.  Tasted very good but it was a little tough, like a pita almost, and you can see in the pics how much spring it had, even under the cheese (third shot).

Next time I'm going to do a short second knead before bulk proofing and open it cold so it's easier to handle with the higher hydration.

[Skee]

Thought I would update with last night's try at using one dough for both NY and DS. 

Made the standard 700g of 70% hydration DS with a two-day cold ferment and at the 36-hr mark divided the dough, half went into the DS pan, the other half got a 20-second hand knead with the bare minimum of flour on the board, followed by a tight balling, then into an oiled Rubbermaid container.  At the 44-hr mark the DS pan was removed from the fridge and sat at room temp for three hours.  The NY dough came out of the fridge and the DS dough was stretched and then placed in a 120F oven for an hour to proof.  With the oven on convection, got the bottom stone to 650F (!), opened the still cool NY ball and easily spun it out to 16", then formed a 14" pie on the peel, dressed with sauce, oregano, fresh basil, and a mix of whole milk mozz and sharp provolone, and cooked it in 4:15, convection on and no broiler time.  Lowered the oven temp to 475 for the DS, cooked it without sauce, took about 13 minutes. 

Both were spectacular - my son proclaimed the NY to be the second best he'd ever had and that he only wished I could make a bigger diameter pie.  If you want a light, airy, and delicately crispy DS crust, I think this is the way to go for a dual-purpose dough.