Author Topic: Homemade Dough Conditioner  (Read 37174 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #150 on: May 11, 2011, 03:48:31 PM »
Norma,

Was the Lehmann crust against which you compared the 12" pizza with the ginger and ascorbic acid also 12"?

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #151 on: May 11, 2011, 06:22:51 PM »
Norma,

Was the Lehmann crust against which you compared the 12" pizza with the ginger and ascorbic acid also 12"?

Peter

Peter,

No, the Lehmann crust I compared the ascorbic acid and ginger pizza to wasnít a 12" Lehmann pizza.  I donít think I ever made a 12" Lehmann dough pizza before this thread.  All the blends I have been using so far in these experiments have been 12" Lehmann pizzas, except for the one I did with a preferment Lehmann dough and that was a 16" pizza.  The only reason I am experimenting with 12" Lehmann pizzas in this thread is because I am using Better for Bread flour I didnít want to use too much flour in these experiments.  

Would it make a much bigger difference if I had used the ascorbic acid and ginger in a bigger pizza?

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #152 on: May 11, 2011, 07:38:51 PM »
Norma,

What I was wondering is if the bake times for a 12" pizza and a 16" pizza in your oven are different and, if so, how do you know when they reach the same final condition? For example, if the 12" pizza were baked proportionately longer than the 16" pizza, might not the rim be dryer and crispier? Also, if the sauce and cheese quantities are not proportionate, that might also have an effect on the bake times. I would think that the best comparison is to make two dough balls for two 12" pizzas, with one of the dough balls having the ascorbic acid and ginger, using the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas, and, if possible, baking them simultaneously in your deck oven and then pulling them at the same time. This would remove pizza size and related aspects as variables.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #153 on: May 11, 2011, 09:25:43 PM »
Norma,

What I was wondering is if the bake times for a 12" pizza and a 16" pizza in your oven are different and, if so, how do you know when they reach the same final condition? For example, if the 12" pizza were baked proportionately longer than the 16" pizza, might not the rim be dryer and crispier? Also, if the sauce and cheese quantities are not proportionate, that might also have an effect on the bake times. I would think that the best comparison is to make two dough balls for two 12" pizzas, with one of the dough balls having the ascorbic acid and ginger, using the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas, and, if possible, baking them simultaneously in your deck oven and then pulling them at the same time. This would remove pizza size and related aspects as variables.

Peter

Peter,

I donít usually time bake times with any of my pizzas at market.  I just keep opening the door on the deck oven and rotating the pies or using a screen if I think the bottom is getting to dark.  My deck temperatures vary all over the place according to where the pies are placed.  I donít understand why that is, but usually a smaller pie will be finished in about the same amount of time.  My deck oven doesnít lose deck temperatures as fast as my home oven using a pizza stone.  I can let the door open for a much longer time, and the deck temperatures donít fall much.  As can be seen in many pictures I have posted for reference to how the pies are baking, my deck oven does bake differently than my home oven.  I guess it is the mass of deck oven stones that helps, and also I can hear my gas turning on much quicker than my home oven would reheat the coil in my electric home oven.  If I would let my regular home oven door open as long as I do at market, my pizza stone would lose more heat.  I also guess, because there is less head room in my deck oven, than my home oven, that also helps to maintain the temperatures. 

I do have a timer at market and can make two Lehmann doughs next week, (one with ginger and
ascorbic acid and one without) to see what happens, but if I put them (with the same amount of cheese and sauce), almost simultaneously in the oven, I still am not sure if they will bake the same because of the different temperatures of my deck stone.  On the right side of my deck oven the temperature seem to be higher than the left side.  My top deck also is a lower in temperature.  I donít know why that is either, because I think heat would rise and make the top deck hotter, but it doesnít.  Maybe the bottom deck stays hotter because that is where the gas burner is.  The gas burner goes underneath the middle of the whole bottom of my bottom deck. 

I didnít use a screen for this pizza and just wondered why the crust did get lighter in the bottom of the crust and was also crisper.  I hadnít seen that before in my deck oven.  Usually I take a pie out of the oven when the cheese looks finished. 

If you still think what you posted would be a good test, I will do it next week.  I know you are always looking at variables.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #154 on: May 11, 2011, 10:15:23 PM »
Norma,

The reason why I focused on the oven and pizza size is because I have never read anything that associated the use of ascorbic acid and ginger with the finished crust characteristics you described. What I have read--and I am sure you also have read--is that the ascorbic acid is supposed to create a more acidic environment for the yeast and the ginger is supposed to "kick start" the yeast. It also concerned me that just about all the articles I read about the ginger used the same or similar language, as though everyone was citing and quoting everyone else. When I see that, I get nervous. With a little bit more research, I found a cached post on a forum where a poster analyzed ginger from a chemical standpoint and was hard pressed to see how it helped a dough at all (other than giving a bit of pungent taste).

Getting back to your oven and doing another experiment, I think it should be possible to bake the two pizzas in succession, using the same oven real estate for the two pizzas, assuming that you let that space get back to the same temperature after baking the first pizza. With the pizzas being in close succession, I think that if you sample the crusts of both pizzas after they come out of the oven and cool down to be able to eat you should be able to detect any textural and flavor differences between the two pizza crusts. As previously discussed, you would want to use the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas.

I will leave to you to decide if you should run another experiment using the ascorbic acid and ginger. You might not give this experiment as high a priority as other experiments that you would like to conduct at market.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #155 on: May 11, 2011, 11:12:51 PM »
Norma,

The reason why I focused on the oven and pizza size is because I have never read anything that associated the use of ascorbic acid and ginger with the finished crust characteristics you described. What I have read--and I am sure you also have read--is that the ascorbic acid is supposed to create a more acidic environment for the yeast and the ginger is supposed to "kick start" the yeast. It also concerned me that just about all the articles I read about the ginger used the same or similar language, as though everyone was citing and quoting everyone else. When I see that, I get nervous. With a little bit more research, I found a cached post on a forum where a poster analyzed ginger from a chemical standpoint and was hard pressed to see how it helped a dough at all (other than giving a bit of pungent taste).

Getting back to your oven and doing another experiment, I think it should be possible to bake the two pizzas in succession, using the same oven real estate for the two pizzas, assuming that you let that space get back to the same temperature after baking the first pizza. With the pizzas being in close succession, I think that if you sample the crusts of both pizzas after they come out of the oven and cool down to be able to eat you should be able to detect any textural and flavor differences between the two pizza crusts. As previously discussed, you would want to use the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas.

I will leave to you to decide if you should run another experiment using the ascorbic acid and ginger. You might not give this experiment as high a priority as other experiments that you would like to conduct at market.

Peter

Peter or anyone that is interested,

So far on this thread these are where I made regular 12" Lehmann dough pizzas at Reply 74 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg135071.html#msg135071 and next posts and at Reply 90 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg135906.html#msg135906 and following posts.  I think after those posts is were where I stopped making a test regular 12" Lehmann doughs.  I havenít changed my temperatures of my deck oven since starting this thread.
Those pizzas didnít have the crispness that the pizza I made on Tuesday had.

The only thing I did different in this recent blend is upped the ginger to 3 pinch measuring spoons and only used 1 pinch of ascorbic acid in the blend.  I just wanted to see what adding more ginger to the blend would do.  I said to Steve that the crust almost tasted like a sourdough curst, but Steve didnít agree with me on that, but he did agree with me on the crispness.

I did post on where I had purchased smaller measuring spoons at Reply 59 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg134626.html#msg134626

I like you. didnít read anything before that suggested that ginger would change the crust crispness, like it did in my experiment.  I donít know if it might have been my deck oven or what happened.

I think this last experiment warrants another experiment with the blend I used and also a regular Lehmann dough pizza.  It just made Steve and I wonder why the rim and bottom of the crust was so crisp and didnít seem to become really brown.

I think I still have a leftover slice in my refrigerator I brought home from market, to reheat.  I also think I brought home a slice of the Bisquick cheese-garlic pizza and a Lehmann dough manteca slice.  I will look and see if I brought a slice of all of them home.  I shouldnít be eating all this pizza, but at least my blood levels were better than last year, so I guess it will be okay.  ::)

Norma
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 11:17:03 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #156 on: May 11, 2011, 11:46:16 PM »
At least to me, this thread on the Fresh Loaf is interesting, even though there are no conclusions and seems like trying dough enhancers aren't popular, at least in bread.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18034/bread-dough-enhancer

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #157 on: May 12, 2011, 08:09:59 AM »
For anyone that is interested, I donít know how ascorbic acid, type or brand of flours, baking times, mixing times and protein content of flours are related, but in these tests it seems like the protein content, ash content, etc. and proofing times do matter when using ascorbic acid.  http://www.cazv.cz/2003/CJFS4_03/3-Hruskova-Novotna.pdf

To add to that mess, now also ginger was added, so I donít know what the two combined ingredients of ascorbic acid and ginger will do or wonít do, especially since I donít have all the equipment needed to do specialized tests with ascorbic acid and ginger.

Norma

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #158 on: May 12, 2011, 12:26:33 PM »
To add to that mess, now also ginger was added, so I donít know what the two combined ingredients of ascorbic acid and ginger will do or wonít do, especially since I donít have all the equipment needed to do specialized tests with ascorbic acid and ginger.

Norma,

Thank you for posting the links to the two articles. I always enjoy reading stuff like that. I'm sure that you noted that the Czech article was with respect to the effects of ascorbic acid as added to flour as opposed to ascorbic acid that is added to yeast.

I agree with you that the types of experiments that you have been conducting with the ascorbic acid and ginger are perhaps best left to a controlled laboratory setting. I personally would never trust, or draw conclusions from, the results of only a single experiment. I would have to conduct the identical experiment several times, along with controls, before I would attempt to draw conclusions and, even then, I would be relying on taste/texture memory, which is also suspect, at least in my case with my tastebuds. I believe that what you and I have read on the subject is based mostly on anecdotal evidence, mostly by home bakers. It is perhaps that anecdotal evidence that becomes gospel on the internet when that evidence become viral.

Peter


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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #159 on: May 12, 2011, 02:36:09 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for posting the links to the two articles. I always enjoy reading stuff like that. I'm sure that you noted that the Czech article was with respect to the effects of ascorbic acid as added to flour as opposed to ascorbic acid that is added to yeast.

I agree with you that the types of experiments that you have been conducting with the ascorbic acid and ginger are perhaps best left to a controlled laboratory setting. I personally would never trust, or draw conclusions from, the results of only a single experiment. I would have to conduct the identical experiment several times, along with controls, before I would attempt to draw conclusions and, even then, I would be relying on taste/texture memory, which is also suspect, at least in my case with my tastebuds. I believe that what you and I have read on the subject is based mostly on anecdotal evidence, mostly by home bakers. It is perhaps that anecdotal evidence that becomes gospel on the internet when that evidence become viral.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I did note that the ascorbic acid in the Czeh article was with respect of effects of ascorbic acid as added to flour.  I had also searched on what ascorbic acid really does in making dough and what I mostly read was like what scott r had posted at the beginning of this thread. The ascorbic acid was mostly to replace or act like using bromated flour. 

I wouldnít ever think my test results are conclusive, even if I did a number of experiments, but find how the taste of the crust changes with each experiment interesting. I never really have controlled experiments, as can be seen in what I did so far.  Steve and I both can notice in each of these experiments so far on this thread, there is a different taste in the crust with each blend.  Whether they are because of different bake times, different proofing times, different room temperature proofing,  different amounts of cheese, sauce or other variables I donít think we will ever know.  To do a really controlled experiment would take a lot of work with any of these blends.

I still will make two test doughs, one with ascorbic acid and ginger and one without to test next Tuesday.  At least it might satisfy my curiosity about why the crust was so crisp.

Norma

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #160 on: May 12, 2011, 02:47:58 PM »
Norma,

Of all the experiments you have conducted thus far in this thread, has any one stood out from all the others from the standpoint of producing exceptional or unexpectedly good results? Also, is there any enhancer that you would consider using with your preferment Lehmann dough at market?

Peter

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #161 on: May 12, 2011, 04:21:03 PM »
Norma,

Of all the experiments you have conducted thus far in this thread, has any one stood out from all the others from the standpoint of producing exceptional or unexpectedly good results? Also, is there any enhancer that you would consider using with your preferment Lehmann dough at market?

Peter

Peter,

Although these experiments did give different flavors in the crust, and some were moister in the rim than others, and also with the last experiment crisper in the rim and crust, I canít think of a favorite right now.  With each experiment, they all were different, but I donít think I would use any of them in the preferment Lehmann dough as of now. If I would try more of these blends in the preferment Lehmann dough I would need another method to prepare the Lehmann dough, because most of these blends do make the dough stiffer, until they have fermented at least 2 days.  With my preferment Lehmann dough, I only have a one day cold ferment after the final mix, as I am sure you already know.  I still really like the preferment Lehmann dough pizza and also like most of the Reinhart pizzas I had made so far.  I would rather experiment more with manteca or Goya manteca in the preferment Lehmann dough, but am still curious how any of these blends would work out in one of Reinhart doughs.  Probably any of the blends I have tried so far wouldnít make a really big difference in the Reinhart dough either.  I really donít know.  I donít think a normal customer or person that doesnít eat a lot of pizzas would really notice a big difference in the flavor of the crust in a Lehmann dough with using a blend or not.  I do have one customer that has tasted most of the Lehmann pizzas with the blends and he can tell the difference.

Norma