Author Topic: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza  (Read 31492 times)

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Offline DNA Dan

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Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« on: March 26, 2011, 01:06:20 PM »
Where do I begin?

It has been years now that I have been in pursuit of a malty laminated crust in the likes of Round Table, Straw Hat pizza, or Shakeys. I have been after this texture of a laminated crust, but with a much more "malty" profile for a long time. I have tried everything from malt extracts, maltodextrins, sours, added flavorings, long ferments, tons of yeast, fresh yeast, cultured yeast, brewer's yeast, etc. I have a flask which I have been culturing different yeast cultures as would be done for a "fermentation starter" in beer making. To date I have tried about a dozen brewer's yeasts, and half a dozen baking yeasts. After all this, I have finally reached what I think is something I can produce consistently, with a flavor profile that is pretty malty. Malty enough? well that is a matter of taste. The interesting thing is there's really nothing special to the recipe other than the use of a commercial sheeter. After trying all the malty products out there, I came to the conclusion that the best I can do so far is the use of regular ADY and malt liquor. For some reason the flavor profile of a finished malt liquor provides a much higher malty flavor than if I culture brewer's yeast and make my own "precursor to beer". I assume this is because the added hops, barleys, grains, etc. that is found in a finished beer. The molecules and flavors is just much more complex, and they come through better in a finished pizza than a brewer's starter culture.

So without further rambling, in appreciation of the guidance of many folks on this board I am posting my recipe for the entire pizza community to use. It includes the dough prep and sauce that I created. The basic recipe and baking percents were mostly worked out by Peter aka "Pete-zza" in the Round Table pizza part 1 thread. I hope a few of you have the chance to re-create my version of a Malty Laminated Beer Pizza. Enjoy !


Malty Laminated Beer Pizza

Dough          

Weight   BP   Ingredient
481 g    (100%)    Flour (All Trumps, unbleached, unbromated)
232 g   (48%)     Malt liquor (Boiled off for 10 minutes, then cooled for yeast) (Old English or similar)
10 g    (2%)   Salt (Regular table salt)
10 g   (2%)   Shortening  (Manteca)
10 g   (2%)   Sugar
10 g   (2%)   Non-fat Bakers Dry Milk (King Arthur brand)
3 g   (0.62%)   Active Dry Yeast (Fleischmann’s)

Start by bringing malt liquor to a simmer. Gently boil off alcohol for ~10 minutes. Cool until warm to touch. Add sugar and yeast, let sit for 5 minutes. Combine dry ingredients and mix. Add yeast mixture to dry ingredients and partially mix by hand. Add shortening. Mix by hand until fully incorporated. Knead 2-3 minutes. Let rise for ~ 8 hours at room temperature. Bag and refrigerate 24-48 hours. The next morning, sheet down to <¼” thickness using flour liberally. Perform a business letter fold then continue to sheet down to 1/8” thickness with as few passes as possible. Dock the dough sheet then cut pizzas using a 16” die cutter. Place on baking paper, cover entirely with plastic wrap and refrigerate for at least 3 hours. Alternatively, fold into quarters and place into a new bag. Remove from cooler, dress and cook immediately at 425°C for 10-15 minutes on a stone deck or a pizza screen.

Sauce                  
2  tsp. Mexican Oregano         
2  tsp. Beer Buds, Dried beer extract (www.butcherpacker.com)
1  tsp. Granulated garlic
1  tsp. Ground Fennel   (Mortar and Pestle)   
½ tsp. Paprika       
½ tsp. Ground Coriander   
¼ tsp. Salt   
¼ tsp. Cayenne         

6 oz. Can Heinz tomato paste   (1 can)
4 oz. Water         (~1/2 can )

Combine spices and mix well. Add 2 tsp. to tomato paste. Stir in water, cover and refrigerate 24-48 hours.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 11:39:59 AM by DNA Dan »


Offline fazzari

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2011, 01:58:58 PM »
That looks incredibly tasty Dan!!!!!!!!

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2011, 02:08:51 PM »
Thanks John. That means a lot coming from someone such as yourself.

It's interesting because despite the malt liquor being amber (I used Old English HG in that pizza) the color of the crust is fairly white. I notice after ~24 hours of ferment the "feel" of the dough undergoes a change and feels sort of like plastic or clay. I assume this is the increase in yeast cells and digestion of the sugars in the dough. I will add the flour and beer I used in the recipe above.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2011, 05:26:22 PM »
Dan
One of the huge disadvantages of making pizza at home, is one has to get it right in as few tries as possible.  What I mean is...I believe that every single pizza has a unique dough temperature that it should be baked at...with the goal being that the top and bottom are done at the same time.  Unfortunately, I think that many might have the dough down perfect but are let down when the pizza doesn't bake quite right.  In a restaurant, when you are baking hundreds of pizza a day, you get a great gauge of where your oven should be.  Looking at your pies above, I'm wondering what a 50, 60 or 70 degree increase in temp would have brought you...I don't know, I'm just wondering.  Even though I've been using the exact same brand of flour for years, my oven temps change as the variability in my flours change...it first shows up in the mixing, it next shows up in the sheeting and lastly in shows up in oven temp. 

Great job on your trials...looks like great eatin to me!!!!

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2011, 05:48:58 PM »
Fantastic! Thanks so much for the detailed workflow. I have GOT to try this out.

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2011, 10:30:30 PM »
Dan
One of the huge disadvantages of making pizza at home, is one has to get it right in as few tries as possible.  What I mean is...I believe that every single pizza has a unique dough temperature that it should be baked at...with the goal being that the top and bottom are done at the same time.  Unfortunately, I think that many might have the dough down perfect but are let down when the pizza doesn't bake quite right.  In a restaurant, when you are baking hundreds of pizza a day, you get a great gauge of where your oven should be.  Looking at your pies above, I'm wondering what a 50, 60 or 70 degree increase in temp would have brought you...I don't know, I'm just wondering.  Even though I've been using the exact same brand of flour for years, my oven temps change as the variability in my flours change...it first shows up in the mixing, it next shows up in the sheeting and lastly in shows up in oven temp. 

Great job on your trials...looks like great eatin to me!!!!

John

I am fortunate enough that I actually have a commercial type stove. It's heavy cast iron and holds heat really well. It also has a fan in the back which is "convection" when turned on. I have been so focused on the dough flavor that I haven't really experimented with the oven.  I have found the lower temperature with the convection on gives me the best possible singe without over cooking the cheese. I like my cheese stringy, not crispy. I think part of this is I don't have access to higher melting temp cheeses. So it's a work around. To produce the effect I want I actually need a top element to singe the toppings more. Almost like having the broiler on. Having a real pizza oven would be awesome, but unfortunately I am still depreciating the cost of the sheeter! Having the sheeter really improved the recipe greatly. I know the next thing to tackle is the oven.

What do you think about those single ovens that hit 500 degrees and only hold one pizza? Baker's Pride has the PX series which seems like it would be pretty good. Are these types of ovens worth it? Or do I need to open a restaurant!?? Thanks for the feedback.




Offline fazzari

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2011, 01:48:11 AM »
Dan,
I'm sorry I'm not understanding what you want....but let me say, I would prefer an oven which a little too hot than a little too cold.  If your oven is a little too hot, you simply monitor the bottom of your pizza, and if its browning too fast you simply slide a screen underneath to slow the browning down and to let the top catch up.  If your oven is too cool, the only tool you have is to move your pizza to a hotter spot, that is if you have one, and most of us don't at home.  When I make cracker crusts at home, I always make sure to have some very small pizza skins to use as tests before I bake up the big ones...this is how I figure how much heat each batch of dough might need.
I'm sorry I can't comment on the oven you mentioned, but I can say I can make a pizza in my home oven on a stone that is everybit as good as one cooked in my commercials deck at work.  Have lots of fun!!

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2011, 11:04:33 AM »
John,

I was cooking them about 475 for ~8 minutes. The issue I was running into is the top was barely melted in the center, but starting to overcook on the edges. I think this was the result of the hot air from the fan circulating around the edge of the pizza, but not in the center. That's when I decided to back off on the heat a little. Perhaps I backed off too much. This was also on a previous batch of dough, and as we know each dough is different, (even using the same recipe!).

What I am after is an oven that has more "TOP" heat. I think that is the weakness of my oven. I have tried putting a stone up there but it didn't make much difference. I want radiant heat. Broiler heat. I have also let my toppings and sauce warm up a little before cooking, because I found if I cook it right out of the refridgerator the crust cooks great but the top is barely melted. If I cook it longer, the crust just gets too tough on the bottom. It's almost as though the cracker crust doesn't allow much heat to go THROUGH it. It's trapping the steam between the layers instead of allowing that heat to permeate the toppings.

If you don't mind me asking, do you use an oven with radiant top and bottom burners?

Offline fazzari

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2011, 04:12:43 PM »
Dan
We use a simple deck oven...only heat is in the deck....Have you tried not using the convection????
Dan, don't jump to conclusions about the cracker crust not letting heat up......a good cracker crust does let heat all the way through....in fact steam rolls off the pie after you take it out of the oven.  Dan, we use raw green peppers, onions, beef and sausage and at 550 to 625 degrees for 5 to 8 minutes, all of the raw stuff is cooked....this can't be done without good heat transfer.  And now you see why this type of pizza is so hard to make consistently.  I'm not saying we make pizzas perfectly all the time, one has to constantly be able to improvise as the dough changes.
John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2011, 11:30:20 AM »
Wow John, that is a lot higher than I would have thought. My oven is numbered to 550, but there is some "extra" turn on the knob past that. I will try this on max for my next pie without the convection going. Do you recommend putting the stone on the top shelf and cooking right in the middle of the oven? I want to try the "oiled" cutter pan approach next, so I don't think I will need the stone.

I am familiar with a deck oven and the screen technique. I used to cook pizza at a restaurant when I was in High School. There's no rush better than cooking ~20 pizzas in a top/bottom deck oven on a Friday night. Those were the days man! I find it fascinating that the slightest changes in a home environment just destroy the "sweet spot" process. That's awesome you have some "tests" that you run to ensure you are hitting it just right. I bet most your customers don't even know the passion and distance that you go to in making sure their pie is the best it can be. Those ungrateful pizzaholics.  :pizza:


Offline fazzari

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2011, 01:21:39 AM »
Dan,
Two areas of concern for you to experiment with:
1)  Take a piece of dough (we use 20 pounds), and sheet it to about one quarter inch
     Fold the sheet up, turn 90 degrees, and sheet it again to about one quarter inch
     Fold the sheet up, turn 90 degrees, and sheet it again to about one eighth inch
     Cut your skins from this sheet of totally degassed dough
     Let one of your skins set out for about 20 minutes
     Cut a piece of dough from the one skin and drop it in water....it should float!!!!
     This is how fast a degassed dough starts filling with gas

     Now imagine what happens to a skin which sits in refrigeration for 1, 2, or 3 days, undisturbed, just
     waiting to be baked

Actually my other thought will have to wait Dan...I gotta go

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2011, 10:22:17 PM »
Dan
My other area of concern is: when is the right time to sheet dough.  This is a subject I started thinking about alot for the past 4 months.  On the one hand if you read any recipes regarding lamination (say for croissants), the dough is deliberately undermixed to allow for the machining of the dough to finish strengthening of the dough.  Most of the time, the lamination is done the same day.
On the other hand, one can mix a no-knead dough and let it set overnight and bake bread the next day.  I sheet my dough on day 1 right after it doubles.  I have experimented with sheeting on the second day and find my sheeter labors.....the skins are perfectly fine...especially the next day..but I can find no advantage to sheeting later than day 1.  I've tried asking this question to Tom Lehmann, but as of yet gotten no response.  So, does the dough have to be undermixed if it will be sheeted the next day??  Just asking, I don't know!!

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2011, 01:14:46 AM »
Thanks for the input John. So would you say there was no pecievable difference in the layer separation (bubbles in final crust) of a dough sheeted prior to the refridgerated ferment vs. after? I would think the layers would tend to hydrate into one another? no? Then again I haven't tried this either. Damn John! You're giving me too many ideas and experiments to do now!  :-D There's always something else to try.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 05:20:50 PM »
So I tried 500 degrees with no convection. Pizza took longer to cook for my liking, more like 10-12 minutes, but it was a marked improvement. Much more crisp out of the bottom and a lot more singe. Thanks for the pointers!

I also just threw in the ADY without activating and just poured malt liquor in the dough. Sure enough the dough does not rise so well. I still haven't figured out if the alcohol is retarding it/killing it or if it just isn't activated. I know if I try and activate it in malt liquor, it does not do so well. Perhaps I will activate it in some water with the sugar, then pour in the liquor separately. I know there's always IDY but it seems to lack flavor to me. Also doesn't seem to last over long fermentation periods.

Last pie was really good. Always room to improve.  :chef:

Offline fazzari

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 09:06:20 PM »
Thanks for the input John. So would you say there was no pecievable difference in the layer separation (bubbles in final crust) of a dough sheeted prior to the refridgerated ferment vs. after? I would think the layers would tend to hydrate into one another? no? Then again I haven't tried this either. Damn John! You're giving me too many ideas and experiments to do now!  :-D There's always something else to try.
Dan
Sorry, I didn't see this until now.  I have never perceived layer separation in doughs sheeted by machine..I have very rarely with doughs done by rolling pin.  I still maintain:(from an earlier post)

I found some information today that at least might help in answering two questions I've had about the cracker crust.  One question is "why is it called a cracker crust?", and the other is "exactly what does laminating a pizza dough (without fat) do to the finished crust?"
From "Formulas and Processes for Bakers" by Samuel Matz.

"Layering and reduction (thinning) processes improve the grain and texture of the finished product by reducing the size of large gas bubbles and by forming many nuclei for steam evolution as a result of subdividing pockets of entrapped air.  These actions are separate frojm the fat layering effect and will occur even in the absence of any laminating medium such as shortening, although the latter may facilitate steam entrapment when it is present as a discontinuous phase.  The practice of braking cracker or biscuit doughs to improve texture is based on these considerations, although dough development is another important result of such procedures".

12 minutes at 500 degrees seems like an awful long time to bake...but, it would help to know how big your pizza was a what it weighed.. we routinely bake 16 inch (20 ounce) pizzas at 550 degrees in 7 to 8 minutes...it all depends on the penetration of heat from the stone upward.  How about some pictures too
Dan???   Keep experimenting!!

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2011, 12:48:13 AM »
Interesting. ..

My oven has some pretty heavy cast iron in it, but I could tell by the "heating indicator" it was having trouble keeping the 500 temp after I opened the door a couple of times. Next time I will have to leave it alone longer and not open the door so much. I did this one on a stone, so I was afraid of burning the bottom. I had to time it just right to slip my screen under there. You know the routine. ..

I didn't take any photos because the pizza went so fast! I'll be sure to snap one next experiment this weekend. I want to play with proofing the yeast in very little water with the sugar added, then adding malt liquor directly to the flour. I am trying to eliminate the need to boil off the alcohol in the liquor. So far it seems to really retard the yeast growth if you don't do this step.  

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2011, 12:54:32 PM »
Judging by your pictures, it appears that you are getting at least a few of the characteristics I'm trying to get with my Tommy's clone, particularly the blistered bottom. What do you think is the main factor contributing to the blistered bottom?

I'm guessing it's the two-day bulk ferment, as well as baking almost immediately after removing the skin from the fridge. Maybe the sugar, too.

It's amazing how just a few pics can sometimes help you see what you've been missing. Your pics have inspired me to try a few changes with my Tommy's formula, including higher hydration, more sugar, and a two-day bulk ferment followed by only a few hours in the fridge after sheeting.

Do you have any profile pics of that pizza (to show the lamination results)?

Thanks.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2011, 12:54:18 AM »
Sorry but I do not have profile pics of the lamination. It's basically a very crispy bottom with a "gummy" layer on top which has separated in random spots. It's not as full of bubbles as say a laminated croissant, but not a solid dough either. Also when you cut it, it tends to "seam" the lamination on the edges a bit. That's why I've never really take shots of this. There usually isn't much to see, but the difference in mouth texture is unbeat by other styles. I will take some photos on my next pizza.

As for the blistering, you are correct. This is a function of the long ferment and cooking the skin right out of the refridgerator. I get the same amount whether I cook it at 425 or 550 degrees. I don't think the sugar content really influences this other than speeding up the yeast growth. Try this, let your dough ferment at room temperature for a good part of the day. After it rises, punch it down, then let it rise again. Do this about 3-4 times over several hours, then throw it in the refridgerator overnight.  Roll out a skin the next morning, put it back in the refridgerator, then cook it anytime after 3 hours. You should then have a blistered dough.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2011, 01:24:52 AM »
Made another pie tonight. Didn't have any malt liquor so I substituted for Beer buds beer extract and some Non-Diastatic Malt powder. Due to the maltose and dextrose in the Beer Buds, I decided to skip the sugar in the recipe. This forced the ADY to change substrate from the typical sucrose saccharides. The crust was quite similar in texture, much easier to laminate with almost too much slack. It was moist and not dry to the taste. Taste was lacking compared to the malt liquor method however. I am also now cooking at ~500 degrees with a 8-10 minute time period. This particular pie was done on baking paper on a stone.

Took the profile shot for ya Aimlessryan. You can see when I took the shot after cutting it, the layers appear "seamed" with not so many voids. Once I started eating and I took another shot, the interior structure is better resolved to actually be pockets of air. I don't know if this is from cutting it while it's hot then taking the shot once the steam has subsided or what. But there you have it. Also remember this dough has no table sugar and it's blistered pretty good.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2011, 01:25:30 AM »
More shots.


 

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