Author Topic: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza  (Read 41347 times)

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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2012, 11:19:22 PM »
I still haven't received my perforated disks, but I just could not wait to use the oven. I ended up using a coupe style pan that was perforated. I have also been trying some different flours. The following pizzas were made with GM Remarkable flour. In a nutshell, I wasn't impressed. The dough was much softer at the same 48% hydration I always use. This might be a good flour for the rolling pin folks to give a try. I didn't get as many blisters on the dough as I do with All Trumps, but it was super easy to sheet. I could easily see this flour in the low 40's hydration range.

First up, some leftover Easter ham diced up with some pineapple. Ran it through too fast, so I cranked it up and actually used my peel to push it back in the conveyor, so I burnt one side a bit. First the prep, then going into the oven, then the final pie.


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2012, 11:29:20 PM »
Next up a larger pie. Pepperoni, Mushrooms (raw), sausage (raw) and fresh garlic. I figure the even heating oven with adequate top heat should allow me to put all raw ingredients on my pies now. First shot is the prep, then the final pie.

Still trying to get the hang of the oven. I don't feel I did too bad for my first pass at it. I think due to the shortness of the oven, the pizza is better cooked slower at a lower temperature. This puts it around the 10 minute mark. I know this is different from RT, but their ovens are longer and probably have more heating elements in them. There is also a height adjustment on the ends for thicker pizzas and clearance for higher toppings, but I think raising this just evacuates the heat quicker.

I re-read a bunch of threads regarding the Patsy's pizza Jeff cloned a while back and I think I need to start taking another look at preferements for more flavor. I know the california three don't use that in their dough, but after seeing how it could be dried, ground up and put in the mix bag, I think it's entirely feasible this could still be the magic bullet to that peculiar parlour smell of these places. I also didn't think about supplementing my brewer's yeast experiments with more ADY just to get the rise out of it. It never occured to me to use a combination approach. This opens up a whole new area for me because some of the brewer's yeasts had good flavors, but did not perform properly with the layers on the sheeter or my weaker old oven. I think I am in a better position now to re-try some of those experiments. Anyone reading this in possession of the Patsy's culture or other cultures care to share please IM me. Thanks!

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2012, 11:34:03 PM »
Oh and I might add that singed pepperoni IS part of the taste of the RT pies. The few pieces I had that were singed on the rim of my pie tasted closer to the real deal.

Side note #2 - I think I need to get an exhaust fan for my garage. You should have seen the neighbor's face when I opened the garage door up! It was a total Cheech and Chong moment! :-D
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 11:36:08 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2012, 12:00:44 PM »
Oh, man, Dan, those pizzas both look AWESOME!!! 8)

Now I am hungry for pizza for lunch, but I know whatever I can find near me right now will not be as good as those 2 lovelies you made. 

So, in your estimation, what do you think of the conveyor oven?  I have generally been very skeptical of them in the past, but recent visits to a local pizza restaurant and my visits to RT's have me starting to come around to that way of cooking a pizza in terms of acceptability.

Keep up the great work, and  keep posting those pics.

-ME
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2012, 12:47:18 PM »
I'm really digging it so far. I think what this style really needs is good top heat. This gives a more uniform puffiness to the crust. In my previous oven which had little top heat, the crust would be puffy starting from the rim, but the center would cook before it had the chance to puff up.

The other advantage is the heating time. I can be ready to cook in 15 minutes as opposed to waiting for a stone to get hot. 

Some more direct improvements I saw right away were 1) The singed pepperoni. I will be trying to tweak that direction more since that added a noticeable smoky flavor to the overall pizza. 2) The pan on the conveyor approach gave a more "fried" feel to the crust. I used some PAM spray on the pan and it sizzles in the oven so the crust is super crispy fried. This could probably be reproduced in a regular oven. It's really that blast of hot air from above that makes the bake greatly improved.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2012, 12:29:58 AM »
Just to convince myself that it's the yeast byproducts that flavor the dough I thought of a good experiment for tonight's pie with some of the CY that I recently purchased. I took 100g of yeast and heated it into 2 cups of water. I let this simmer for ~10 minutes to kill all the yeast. I then used this dead cell mass stock to supplement 50% of the water in my recipe. After trying the pizza resulting from this, I am now convinced that the flavor is not from the yeast cells alone, but it's all the byproducts that these critters make. I know this may be obvious to some, but I needed to prove it for myself. I am cultivating some starters now and will be engineering my own in the coming months by trying to create a symbiosis with some brewer's yeasts. There are a few I tried in the past that had good flavor similar to the beer instead of water approach. I was originally turned off because of the lack of gassing power, but the Patsy's thread has reinvigorated my interests in using a sourdough culture for FLAVOR, then getting my performance issue corrected with ADY spiked in.

Still tweaking the oven settings, but this was my latest pie tonight from the dead yeast cell experiment. I actually sheeted this right before cooking it. Oven settings were 425 bottom, 450 top, speed setting 50. (Whatever that means!) This one came out so pretty I had to pan it and serve it on the table. The crust however lacked the flavor of the beer method.  This one is an American combination. Enjoy!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 05:35:44 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2012, 11:22:19 AM »
Dan,

Picture perfect my man....very nice!!
Please keep after your smell/flavor experiments...there are many of us awaiting your success, Thanks,


Bob
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Offline politon

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2012, 03:07:22 PM »
Awesome looking pie..congrats!

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2012, 04:37:01 PM »
Just to convince myself that it's the yeast byproducts that flavor the dough I thought of a good experiment for tonight's pie with some of the CY that I recently purchased. I took 100g of yeast and heated it into 2 cups of water. I let this simmer for ~10 minutes to kill all the yeast. I then used this dead cell mass stock to supplement 50% of the water in my recipe. I am convinced that the flavor is not from the yeast alone, but it's all the products that these critters make. I know this may be obvious to some, but I needed to prove it for myself. I am cultivating some starters now and will be engineering my own in the coming months by trying to create a symbiosis with some brewer's yeasts. There are a few I tried in the past that had good flavor similar to the beer instead of water approach. I was originally turned off because of the lack of gassing power, but the Patsy's thread has reinvigorated my interests in using a sourdough culture for FLAVOR, then getting my performance issue corrected with ADY spiked in.

Still tweaking the oven settings, but this was my latest pie tonight from the dead yeast cell experiment. I actually sheeted this right before cooking it. Oven settings were 425 bottom, 450 top, speed setting 50. (Whatever that means!) This one came out so pretty I had to pan it and serve it on the table. The crust however lacked the flavor of the beer method.  This one is an American combination. Enjoy!

WOW!!! :o

That looks exactly like an RT pizza, complete with the cooked sauce at the edge.  Oh man, Dan, you have me really rethinking this thing.  I am just not sure I could afford a conveyor oven (or where I would put it, for that matter).  I think I still need to think about getting a sheeter before I would get one of these ovens, but your pics really show off some great results and have turned me around on my opinion of conveyor ovens.

Thanks!

-ME
Let them eat pizza.


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2012, 05:34:02 PM »
I think you'd be wise to put your money towards a sheeter instead of an oven. With the sheeter alone you can get pretty far with this style. It's been an interesting journey incorporating commercial equipment along the way. I have a product that is gradually looking and becoming more "commercial". Even my wife yesterday said, "that looks like a pizza you just brought home".

I could have put it in a pizza box and you wouldn't know that some nut job made that at his house in his garage. :-D


Offline David Deas

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2012, 06:47:34 PM »
Dan you're awesome, dude.  Nice pies.

Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2012, 01:54:02 PM »
Okay, so I've decided to try the laminated dough given by DNA Dan at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13389.msg169942.html#msg169942

I'm using IDY, not ADY, so I've cut the amount used down accordingly.  I didn't have any shortning on hand, so I used (unsalted) butter, instead.  I mixed it last night, and the initial 1-hour rise was beautiful.

I don't have access to a sheeter, so I'll be rolling it out by hand.

I'll be finishing tonight when I get home from work, and I'll be hungry enough that I don't know if I'll be able to wait for the 3-hour refrigeration after being rolled out (we'll see).

If this turns out the way I hope, I think I've found the base for the taco pizza that I originally inspired me to get into pizzamaking in the first place!  :-D

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2012, 02:00:44 PM »
^^how much IDY did you end up using?  (i'm trying to get a feeling for ADY/IDY conversions.)  thanks!

Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2012, 03:57:43 PM »
^^how much IDY did you end up using?  (i'm trying to get a feeling for ADY/IDY conversions.)  thanks!

I went with roughly 2/3 as much (I don't remember where I heard it, but I'd heard that that is a good ratio of IDY/ADY), and the 2.1% became about 1.7%. 

I know the math comes out 1.4%, but I 
1) measured 2.1% of 12oz (making a 14" pie, not 16"), which rounds to 0.3oz (my scale only measures tenths).
2) scaled that by 2/3 to 0.2oz
3) recalculated the new percentage as 1.7%

I think that all makes sense...  ::)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2012, 04:40:53 PM »
I went with roughly 2/3 as much (I don't remember where I heard it, but I'd heard that that is a good ratio of IDY/ADY), and the 2.1% became about 1.7%. 
I think the conversion is supposed to be 1/3, rather than 2/3. So this stuff is probably gonna grow faster than you want it to. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Ryan
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Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2012, 05:14:11 PM »
I went looking, and found a discussion by Pete-zaa here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5647.msg47898.html#msg47898

Looking at the table in the link he provided(www.theartisan.net), I see conversions between 2/3 (for small amounts) and 3/4 (for larger amounts)

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2012, 05:28:09 PM »
The fastest way to convert the 12 grams of ADY to IDY is to use the yeast conversion table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm that SquirrelFlight mentioned. As can be seen from that table, to convert the ADY to IDY, you reduce the amount of ADY by 25%. To make the conversion in the other direction, from IDY to ADY, you increase the IDY by one third. The table may not use these conversion factors in every case, but they are close enough for our purposes. I have memorized the 25% and one- third conversion percents to keep everything straight. Sometimes when I am lazy, or when I want very precise numbers, I use the table.

Peter


Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2012, 05:39:00 PM »
I have a fair bit of the boiled-down malt liquor left over.  If the dough turns out good, I'll mix some with water in the same propotion used in the formula and take a specific gravity reading (as soon as the wife is done using my carboy for mead, I think a nice hefe is in order for the summer).  DNA Dan mentioned using a diastatic extract, and it seems to me that knowing your target for sugar concentration is a good idea   :D

Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2012, 11:03:42 PM »
Well, here's my first attempt.  Rolling it out by hand seems to have taken some of the laminars out of the laminate   :'(

and I think I may need to adjust my bake a bit.

Still, it's the first attempt, and I don't think I did too badly.  Wife says she likes it, which is a good thing  8)

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2012, 11:26:41 PM »
Wow that's great for a rolling pin. Did you fold and roll hard? or did you superimpose 3 thin sheets and roll them together?

Also how was the taste of the crust? Did you use Old English or some other malt liquor?

Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2012, 11:37:04 PM »
Wow that's great for a rolling pin. Did you fold and roll hard? or did you superimpose 3 thin sheets and roll them together?

Also how was the taste of the crust? Did you use Old English or some other malt liquor?

It was fold and roll hard... I hadn't thought of stacking - I think I'll try that next time!

The store I went to had Mickey's.  Is there really that much difference between one malt liquor and the next?  I'm not sure I reduced it down enough, though... I was hoping for a little more maltiness.  Some time in the next couple days, I'll redo that malt/water mixture to try and get a specific gravity reading, on the off chance that bulk malt extract might be less expensive than buying malt liqour all the time.... although, I still have most of what I boiled down, so maybe not.  With an actual specific gravity, it might be easier to target a particular concentration.

We'll see  ;)

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2012, 12:47:49 AM »
With an actual specific gravity, it might be easier to target a particular concentration.

I think that's a great idea. I've done malt extract directly and it just seems the dough flavor is one-sided. It's not very dynamic. I think the hops and other items in the beer give it more depth. The nice thing about malt extracts however is they lack the water (especially in dry form), so you can reach higher levels of "maltiness". The only downside to the dry stuff is the sweetness. At high concentrations it's like adding honey to your dough.

Some tips with the rolling pin is to either back off on the flour strength (use lower protein flour, like Mondako, etc.) or raise the hydration if using a high gluten flour. All Trumps can be downright impossible to roll at about 43% hydration.

Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2012, 01:24:34 AM »
Some tips with the rolling pin is to either back off on the flour strength (use lower protein flour, like Mondako, etc.) or raise the hydration if using a high gluten flour. All Trumps can be downright impossible to roll at about 43% hydration.

Ah - forgot to mention, I used Bob's Red Mills white which, if I remember correctly is somewhere around 11% (someone correct me if I'm wrong), which might make the difference.  I normally use KABF, but found this a little bit less expensive and thought I'd give it a try.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2012, 02:02:55 AM »
Did you find it easier to roll with the pin? That's what I was suggesting, something in the 10-12% range.

Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2012, 12:15:04 PM »
The initial rollout wasn't bad at all, although by the time I got it think enough to fold, it had... I guess it had dried out enough that after I folded it, the distinct layers persisted for a long time.  I wonder if the cut-n-stack technique you mentioned would work better than that...