Author Topic: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza  (Read 28520 times)

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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2012, 12:58:48 AM »
If you can't parbake, try using a pizza stone. On a cooler oven you can at least unload more thermal mass to the pie at once. I find the blast of hot air and good heat transfer help the style.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #81 on: October 04, 2012, 11:45:48 AM »
Okay, the temperatures have finally dropped enough to attempt pizzamaking again.... and I had a weekend *full* of fail. Nope, no pictures, it was that bad.  On Saturday, I attempted the laminated beer malt pizza dough (I'll put up my formula when I get home and can check my notes), and was using the "stacking" method from Lydia's video. 

First thing, I rolled the layers waaaay too thin - I had enough scraps left over for a whole new later (more on that in a bit).  The other disaster is that I didn't dust my peel very well, and when I went to launch the pizza, it self-destructed all over the place.  Fail all around. 

Like I said, I had enough trimmed dough to make a whole new layer, which I decided to cook up, bare, yesterday (Sunday) and what I noticed is that it wasn't at all crunchy/crackery, which it's supposed to be (for the type of pie I'm trying to recreate).

So the advice I'm looking for is: what is the best way to make the crust more crispy?  I'm using an electric apartment-supplied oven, so I can't really go hotter, but I could go for a longer bake at a lower temperature (which would tend to dry the dough out while it bakes, if I understand the physics right).  I'll need to double check my formula, but I think my hydration was in the 40%-45% range, So I could try bringing that down a little bit also (thinking along the lines of the DKM cracker crust).  Is my reasoning at all sound with this?
John.
It sounds like you are cooking on a stone and that really is the best way for this type of pizza. If you're using a wood peel be sure to rub flour into really well(preferably semolina for me) but if you rub it into the wood you will need less amount of flour on that peel.
With your stone set low in your oven I suggest 450 degree preheat. You may need to be prepared to finish under the broiler for a minute or 2(I don't know your oven). An easy way to do this is to slide the nearly done pie onto a pizza pan and onto the top rack, quickly getting the oven door back closed. If you get your stone temp right you will find that Dans dough here turns out with a really unique type of texture to it...very good pizza indeed.  ;)
One other thing, I don't do the stacking thing. For a 12in pie I use right at 10-11 oz of dough.Your hydration % was fine, this pizza should take around 12min to bake.Hope you give this another try and get back with your results...thanks.
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Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2012, 12:12:17 PM »
John.
If you're using a wood peel be sure to rub flour into really well(preferably semolina for me) but if you rub it into the wood you will need less amount of flour on that peel.

By "rub in in" the idea is to saturate (if that's the right word) the wood pores with the flour?  I haven't been doing that, just sprinkling flour over the top before putting the dough on it.  I'll certainly give it a try this weekend (I'll also see what an extra week in the fridge will do for the dough).

In going over my notes, it looks like I left out all the fat (although I did mist it when I put in in the tray to ferment). I wonder how much difference that makes?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2012, 01:00:42 PM »
By "rub in in" the idea is to saturate (if that's the right word) the wood pores with the flour?  I haven't been doing that, just sprinkling flour over the top before putting the dough on it.  I'll certainly give it a try this weekend (I'll also see what an extra week in the fridge will do for the dough).

In going over my notes, it looks like I left out all the fat (although I did mist it when I put in in the tray to ferment). I wonder how much difference that makes?
Yes, rub it in.
Yes, you want some oil in this dough. I like to use corn oil in these thin type of doughs.IMO this style lends itself fairly well to a same day dough although a 24-48 hr ferment will always give better results. If you are wanting to go for a week then maybe you should post which recipe you're using so we can have a look at the yeast amount.
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Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2012, 04:03:38 PM »
Okay, my notes say that, with a couple modifications, this is what I used:

100% (14 oz) Hayden Mills 00-grind flour
26% (3.6 oz) Water (filtered/purified)
21% (2.9 oz) Malt extract (boiled down Mickey's Malt Liquor)
2.1% (0.3 oz) table salt
2.1% (0.3 oz)  granulated sugar
2.1% (0.3 oz) dry milk
1.4% (0.2 oz) instant dry yeast

The first modification I made to this was that my wife bought ADY instead of IDY that I bumped the yeast amount to 2.1% (0.3 oz).

The other thing I did was to double the recipe to make 2 pizzas worth.

After mixing, I did a 1-hour, room temperature bulk ferment, at which point I divided, reballed and refrigerated.

The first pizza (last weekend's disaster) was made after 3 days in the fridge.  If I remember right, I gave 3 hours for the dough to return to room temperature before rolling out, cutting, dressing, and destroying it.

The second dough is still in the refrigerator (which I think puts it at 8 days today), and it will probably be this weekend before I retry.

Incidentally, if anyone cares, the malt extract/water mixture came in with a specific gravity of 1.014.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2012, 11:49:27 PM »
I think the easiest way around the peel sticking issue is to use baking paper. I use this every time I cook and have no issues. I laminate my skin, put it on some baking paper and cover it for the 2-3 hour refrigerate. When I take it out to dress it, I peel it off the paper and flip it over, so the drier side of the skin is now on the paper. When you go to set the dressed pizza on your stone, you can just grab a corner and slide it off the peel. I also use a metal peel because I don't like the sharp angle of the wooden ones.

If you're after the malty flavor, you might want to consider the Red Hook ESB in a 40/60 ratio as performed by TomN. This is much faster than boiling down an extract and produces about the same amount of flavor. I have been using this approach more recently with really tasty results. As far as the texture goes, I think Lydia's approach with the cheater formula is great. I never liked relying on the undermixing for these bubbly type crusts, but the less you mix, roll, knead, etc. the better they tend to separate layers and bubble up.

You might want to also try some different flour. I don't know how the absorption of the 00 flour is that you are using, but I use All Trumps flour at 46% hydration. If you substituted say all purpose flour, the same 46% hydration would feel more like 50+% hydration. Bottom line is the same hydration % based on weight using different flours leads to overall differences in hydration. It could be that your dough was simply too wet at 46% hydration. Do yourself an experiment and try this. Take a cup of different flour and add 46% water, compare the doughs. You'll see that 46% on a different flour "feels" totally different. The right feel for this is sort of hard to describe, but I think the best analogy is it's usually on the dry side, and when rolled thin it feels like a piece of modeling clay. Those usually make the best pies in my hands.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 11:52:00 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2012, 09:37:38 AM »
John,
The 00 grind flours are normally seen being used in high heat WFO settings. I would go back to your BF or Hods Mills you used earlier.
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Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2012, 12:36:15 PM »
If you're after the malty flavor, you might want to consider the Red Hook ESB in a 40/60 ratio as performed by TomN. This is much faster than boiling down an extract and produces about the same amount of flavor.

Hmm.... there is a local brewery that makes a best bitter and a scottish-style that is more heavily malted... I may give these a try next time around.

The 00 grind flours are normally seen being used in high heat WFO settings. I would go back to your BF or Hods Mills you used earlier.
The 00 I used is from a local mill, which is it's primary attraction.  I know they produce other varieties, which I think I'll take a look at. According to the miller, this 00 is around 9% protein.  That's kind low isn't it?  Almost down to the pastry flour range?

If I understand things correctly, a lower protein content should result in lower water absorption, right?

Anyway, I still have the other dough which I plan to cook up this weekend. I think I have some parchment paper, which will work with the lower temps.  :)

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #88 on: October 06, 2012, 12:52:55 AM »
I'm not positive about the lower protein making the absorption rate lower. I just know in my experience the lower protein flour makes the dough feel "wetter", so the hydration is probably higher. Others on the forum claim they are in the high 30s% hydration range for the cracker crust, but I just don't see that happening with a flour like All Trumps. At about 40% you get a brick with this hi-protein flour! I do notice that if I put it in the bag all dry and crumbly, it takes a while for the flour to fully take in the moisture. It also seems to inhibit the yeast mobility.

So maybe the opposite is true, a lower protein flour has a higher absoption rate. Peter (aka Petezza) would know the details of this. I'm pretty sure it's been discussed on the forums a lot. As you develop your style, you tend to gravitate more towards "feel" of the dough that you know makes the best pie. The amount of moisture in the flour changes with the weather, age, etc., so even saying 46% hydration every time is slightly different and can affect the final product.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #89 on: October 06, 2012, 01:03:28 AM »
In regard to the beer in the crust, this thread by TomN has been very insightful. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17415.0.html

The basic rule of thumb is 60% Beer 40% water. I tried this in the past and it did not give me that much added flavor, so I started doing the whole "boiled-off" malt liquor approach. However seeing TomN's successes I decided to revisit this with the Red Hook ESB. To my surprise there was a lot of great flavor in the crust. So I think the consensus is you don't need a LOT of beer, you need a certain type of beer. So far the ESB beers have been great. TomN also swears by the double bocks. When I was first trying this and didn't get much flavor, the natural thing to do is use more of it. Adding 100% beer makes the environment more challenging for the yeast, thus the boiled malt liquor extract was born. Little did I know that I needed to switch to a different beer! At any rate, the ESB beers are strong, but not the strongest beers out there. Something about the bitters in the beer really come through in the final crust flavor. It's very interesting. You should definitely give a local beer a try. 


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2012, 09:14:59 AM »
I'm not positive about the lower protein making the absorption rate lower. I just know in my experience the lower protein flour makes the dough feel "wetter", so the hydration is probably higher. Others on the forum claim they are in the high 30s% hydration range for the cracker crust, but I just don't see that happening with a flour like All Trumps. At about 40% you get a brick with this hi-protein flour! I do notice that if I put it in the bag all dry and crumbly, it takes a while for the flour to fully take in the moisture. It also seems to inhibit the yeast mobility.

So maybe the opposite is true, a lower protein flour has a higher absoption rate. Peter (aka Petezza) would know the details of this. I'm pretty sure it's been discussed on the forums a lot. As you develop your style, you tend to gravitate more towards "feel" of the dough that you know makes the best pie. The amount of moisture in the flour changes with the weather, age, etc., so even saying 46% hydration every time is slightly different and can affect the final product.


Yes, this is a topic that comes up fairly frequently. Generally speaking, the higher the protein content, the higher the rated absorption value for the flour. For further details, see Reply 402 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg101278.html#msg101278 and Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12211.msg115225.html#msg115225. Where the confusion usually comes in is because any given flour can actually take on more (or less) water than its rated absorption value and even its operational absorption value. There are also exogenous factors (discussed in the above posts) that can affect flour and the dough made from it. That is why we often have to make adjustments to get the desired "feel" of the dough. It is at that point where it is a good idea to note the weights of the flour and water that produced the right "feel" so as to make it easier to make the same dough again, and maybe to "lock in" the dough formulation for future purposes. Even then, some adjustment--usually minor at that point--might be necessary. 

Peter

Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #91 on: October 08, 2012, 11:22:13 AM »
So, I cooked up the other part of my first batch this weekend (I got a couple pictures which I'll try to post later).  I used a lot more bench flour than I did last time, which made the rolled out dough easier to work with.  I rolled out the layers thicker than I did last time, and continued to use Lydia's stacked layers method.  I had intended to bake at 450, but still wanted a hot stone, so I preheated at 500.  I forgot to turn it back down, so it baked at 500.  It turned out much better this time, but still isn't as crunchy as I'd like.  The 450 bake might help with that.  With Pete's comments about protein and absorption, I think I'll try turning down the hydration a little bit, too.

All-in-all, this weekend was much better than last   ;D

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #92 on: October 08, 2012, 11:33:11 AM »
John,
 How long did this one bake for. You mention using more bench flour, I hope you are not leaving too much on the bottom. For this dough you can also parbake the crust and cook in a pan or on a screen too. You might want to try that sometime.
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Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #93 on: October 08, 2012, 11:43:49 AM »
John,
 How long did this one bake for. You mention using more bench flour, I hope you are not leaving too much on the bottom. For this dough you can also parbake the crust and cook in a pan or on a screen too. You might want to try that sometime.

I think it ended up around 7 minutes.  I was originally planning a 10 minute bake (plus some, if needed).  It was when I checked it halfway through that I realized I'd forgotten to drop the temperature back down.  I'm trying to avoid the parbake if I can (that's not how they do it at home :D ), but I might look into a screen.  I used parchment paper this time, which made launching a lot easier, so I'm thinking a screen may be something I should experiment with....

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2012, 07:47:43 PM »
I shifted gears a bit and got away from this idea that you need a very low hydration dough to make this style. I was reading the PF mills technical booklet located here: http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf
and noticed they recommend a 50% hydration dough for a thin crust using Mondako flour. Furthermore, this is contrary to the idea that you need a stong flour for this style. They actually suggest the power flour for a thick crust. I was able to finally locate a source of Mondako online at www.NYbakers.com and decided I would try the PFmills recipe exclusively with the 60% Red Hook ESB beer that TomN pioneered. I have been usuing this method lately instead of boiling down my own extracts.

The PFmills technical booklet varies from the formulation I have been using. It has ~40% more sugar and less yeast. They also talk about using oil for thin crusts as opposed to shortening, which is also contradicting a lot of these styles that show "partially hydrogenated soybean oil" aka shortening as part of their dough mixes.

This pie was probably in the top 3 pies that I have ever made! ;D It was crunchy, yet not "snappy" like a tortilla chip. The Red Hook ESB also did not disappoint in terms of maltiness. Volume was excellent and I had to pop bubbles 2-3 times. Not many blisters on the bottom at all, however it only saw 3 hours post sheeting in the refridgerator. With AT flour I usually see blisters after a 2hr post sheet refridgerate, so I am not sure if the nature of the Mondako flour is conducive to blister formation. It's basically a glorified APF in some regards.

If you have a sheeter, a higher hydration is definitely worth trying. This was cooked ~10 minutes in a conveyor radiant heat.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #95 on: November 03, 2012, 08:53:59 PM »
As always...you make a beautiful pizza.
I hear ya on upping the water level and I believe Fazzari too has had this type of results using a weaker flour(AP).
It's great that you continue to experiment with this style Dan and I , along with other members, appreciate your tenacity. Still keeping my fingers crossed though that you soon find "that smell"  ;D
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 11:10:45 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2012, 01:01:38 PM »
Once again, nice job, Dan.

I, personally, have chosen vegetable oil, or something similar, over shortening for my Midwestern thin/cracker style crusts.  In my early days of experimenting, I found using today's shortening made the dough more soft rather than crispy, which is what I am going for.  Maybe if we had lard or something similar rather than these healthier solid cooking fats it would create a different consistency.  I don't use a lot of oil, but I do prefer vegetable/canola oil over olive oil for these types of pizzas. 

Normally work at about a 47-48% hydration for this style, which works well for me.

If I had a sheeter, I'd probably go down to at least 40% if not lower.

-ME
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2012, 04:12:42 PM »
Thanks for the compliment ME. Unfortunately I am sort of in a flavor "writer's block" at the moment. The last 6 months of experiments have changed the texture and feel considerably, but the flavor profile is usually the same, give or take some sweetness, saltiness, etc. I think I need to start going rogue with the toppings a bit.

I can get lard at the grocery store, typically "Manteca" brand and usually found near the oils or sometimes in the ethnic foods area. I know what mean about the crispiness factor with different oils. If I use lard I can't get a real crispy product unless I use a very hot pizza stone. In the conveyor it just makes a soft chew to the crust. I get better results in the conveyor using regular vegetable oil. I think with more solid fats you can get crispiness, however it just requires more direct heat transfer. Also it's a different type of crispiness. I'd say more of a crunchy texture. I used to swear by using crisco, but more and more I haven't been using it for the style. Still on the hunt for *that smell*. I've scoured the earth and it just escapes me everytime. Just about the only thing I haven't tried is American Yeast aka the budweiser strain. It's just not available retail and I haven't had success in convincing a restaurant owner to send me some.  ::)


Offline Zing

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2012, 02:02:10 PM »
I hear you, Dan. "That smell" is eluding me, too. I keep reading things on baking, hoping to find some clue. Ever since El Segundo published recent photographs of the bags the Shakey's and Round Table dough mix come in (so that we now have a "certified correct" copy of the ingredients declaration) I try to figure out what is missing. Do we need to bulk ferment at least 25 pounds of mix and 9 pounds of water? Are some of the ingredients specially processed, but still allowed to be called ordinary names such as flour and yeast? Is there something in there the government does not require to be declared on the bag? Is it a special technique to achieve "that smell", though the many posts by former employees do not suggest any.

My neighbor is visiting California soon. He will be "sniffing" his way through several Shakey's this time.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2012, 02:30:37 AM »
Okay. I have broken through my "smell block" lol. I was researching a few different things online and came across something that makes a fantastic smell while cooking. I was reminded of Zing's suggestion (I think it was you.) who said the aroma is like Sara Lee breadsticks or something to that effect. I looked at several dry cheese powders and came across something that is also available through foodservice in larger quantities. I've only made a few pies with it so far, but wanted to share with you guys to get more feedback. There are several products out there like this, but what makes this one special is it does not have parsely in it. So if you use an amount <1% you cannot tell it's in the dough, and it would not have to be listed on any bag. Would be great if you guys could try it out and tell me what you think. I bought mine on ebay through some storefront called "Cheapees".

Basically I am convinced there's something in the dough. *That smell* is not the product of the yeast, nor the fermentation products. I have made highly fermented doughs of several retardation times, and they don't even come close to approaching that smell. I'm convinced we're dealing with some additive in the mix.


 

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