Malty Laminated Beer Pizza

[Mad_Ernie]

Basically I am convinced there's something in the dough. *That smell* is not the product of the yeast, nor the fermentation products. I have made highly fermented doughs of several retardation times, and they don't even come close to approaching that smell. I'm convinced we're dealing with some additive in the mix.

I am with you, Dan.  So how much of this product have you used in your doughs so far?

-ME

[Chicago Bob]

I am going to try and locate some Dan and will use it when I follow along on Lydia's new Me & Ed's. Have you tried the full 1% yet? Thanks.
Bob

[DNA Dan]

I used it at 1% assuming this would be the maximum you could add and bypass labeling laws. I haven't had Shakey's in a long time, so I can't comment if this is the magic ingredient. I can say though that the pizza's I made with this gave off a very "parlour" type smell in my garage from the oven. In the crust you can faintly taste the garlic, but other than that you'd never know "physically it was this product in there. The flavor of the crust was definitely enhanced and had a more robust flavor. I need to pair this with the Red Hook ESB next.

Tried looking for the harina preparada, but it's not available in my area. I should have checked for the value mix at walmart when I was up there. That experiment will need to wait for later. I can say with the conveyor I am moving away from the AT and moving to a weaker flour. I just get crispier results.

[Chicago Bob]

"parlour" smell is good. I would imagine that "the smell" would take a little time to permeate into everything at a newly built Shakey's building, no?

[DNA Dan]

I totally agree. My problem is my oven is in the garage, so I get the usual oily rags, paint overspray, brushes in thinner smell too. Seriously though, I was really impressed with the product. Not just for pizza dough but for it's intended purpose of making garlic bread. It's super yummy.

[Zing]

Harina Preparada is found around here in "International Supermarkets" catering to the Latino and Asian population.

I independently came across that Pendleton Flour Mills technical booklet (discussed above) this morning. On PDF page 12 it talks about flavor improvers and mentions "There are several liquid and powder flavors that will give tastes like Rye, Butter, Buttermilk, Sour Dough, and so on." No doubt we are looking at industrial food ingredients here.

I was the one who hinted the smell is like that of Stella D'oro bread sticks:
http://www.stelladoro.com/

I've tried a few powders in the dough already; they all gave a smell, but did not match that of samples of Shakey's reheated in my oven.

[DNA Dan]

I was the one who hinted the smell is like that of Stella D'oro bread sticks:
http://www.stelladoro.com/

Which ones, the roasted garlic or just the plain ones? Any revealing ingredients show up on the package label?

[Zing]

It was the plain ones. The label did not reveal anything, though.

[Jet_deck]

This may have been discussed, and excuse this post if it has....   What about malted milk powder?  My Dad is a huge chocolate malt fan, and I remember when he bought them, there was a glass jar that just said "Malted" and they would always throw a couple scoops in...  wonder what that stuff taste like by itself?

[Mad_Ernie]

Jet:

The addition of malted milk, or malted barley flours, has come up on several forums on pizzamaking.com

Some of the discussions can be found in the links below, including some that include Aurelio's and Shakey's:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13862.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1110.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8664.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20346.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21474.0.html


I, myself, have not tried using that particular ingredient (yet), but I have used and do have a current recipe that uses Baker's dry milk powder, which is kind of a cheater's way to include "milk" without actually adding the liquid, as some pizza-makers do use milk as an ingredient for dryer/cracker-style crusts.

http://www.preparedpantry.com/dry-milk.aspx

-ME 

[Zing]

A bit more about my Stella D'oro bread sticks comments:

Here is the post where I reported the observations of my neighbor and co-conspirator. I note he bought plain bread sticks, but I bought Sesame because I like them:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10707.msg176380.html#msg176380

These are just some of the things I thought about while trying to figure out what gives Shakey's that malty beer flavor, and why Subway bread baked in the shops stinks up the neighborhood, with the stink getting into the clothes of the employees.

ADDENDUM: I kept reading the rest of the thread starting at the post I gave above. TXCraig1 talked about flavors in this post, which I forgot about until re-reading it:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10707.msg178585.html#msg178585

I'm not sure that jar of ACH's Tone seasoning is THE flavor Shakey's is using, but it is going to be something along those lines.

[DNA Dan]

I've tried all sorts of malt. DME, LME, Malted milk, etc. You get more flavor out of your dough, but the sweetness imparted is almost like adding honey to your dough. Perhaps I used too much. If you do try this, I would completely omit ANY sugar from your dough formulation.

[Mad_Ernie]

I've tried all sorts of malt. DME, LME, Malted milk, etc. You get more flavor out of your dough, but the sweetness imparted is almost like adding honey to your dough. Perhaps I used too much. If you do try this, I would completely omit ANY sugar from your dough formulation.

I suspect that sweetness is one of the reasons some of these pizzas have been so received so favorably by the public for decades. 

Then you have Papa John's, which is at all-time high level of sweetness, imo. 

-ME

[SquirrelFlight]

So, I finally got around to trying this again.  I used, roughly, the formula I gave above, except that I used the 60/40 beer/water mix (a homemade IPA).  I also had a "mystery flour" issue.  In the interest of saving space in the pantry, my wife combined everything into a single plastic bin.  I'm not entirely sure what it is: KABF, Bob's Red Mill, APF... a mix of all of the above?  No way to know.  So, I thought I'd try an experiment to see if I could ferret out the right mix "by feel".

I didn't do too badly in that respect, although it was probably a little bit dryer than is optimal.

Also, I started baking on a screen... I think I may be a convert.  I took Pete's advice and pre-seasoned it, and haven't had any stickage issues over the two pies I baked on it (sorry, no pics, next time, when I get the hydration better, I may try to snap some before devouring).  Still working out the optimal position in the oven.  I'm baking ~10min at 450F, and did one on the top shelf and one on the middle shelf.  Next time I'll try one down from middle to see how that comes out.

Still isn't looking nearly as nice as DNA Dan's, but I'm pleased with the progress I'm making.   

[Chicago Bob]

John,
Dan has that awesome home conveyor oven, but I too have had very decent results with doing your screen technique on this style of great pizza.
Please don't forget the importance your contributions add to all of us when they include pics. I like the pies you create and always look forward to the good work you do man, thanks!
Bob

[DNA Dan]

Still isn't looking nearly as nice as DNA Dan's, but I'm pleased with the progress I'm making.   

I'm just good with a camera 

In all seriousness, all that matters is the pizza you made TODAY, tastes better than the one you made YESTERDAY. That shows you're moving in the right direction. I've been at this in one form or another for over 10 years now.  I still haven't fully discovered what I am after, but I am happy with where the current recipe is and others tell me it tastes great. Perhaps I just have nice friends? Won't know unless I go live, but that requires money I don't have access to.

[Chicago Bob]

Ain't no "magic" in that camera dude!  
This is just good 'ol pizzamaking skills.

[Zing]

I have used the "Find" function to go through all 6 pages of this thread and have not found the word "deactivated". I bought a bag of rolls yesterday with a "clean label" designed to appeal to the health conscious folks but baked by a maker of extended shelf life breads. One of the ingredients on the label is deactivated yeast. Searching Google for deactivated yeast in quotes ("deactivated yeast") leads to all sorts of hits, many of which were posted by vegans. A lot mention the term "cheesy", which I found interesting since we discussed adding cheese powder in one of the cloning threads.

Anybody have any experience with these products? Some deactivated yeasts, such as the brewer's yeast products sold in health foods stores are bitter, so these can be eliminated. I'm trying to avoid buying a lot of samples that others have already shown to be unsuitable for pizza making. Health Foods stores and even Whole Foods are supposed to sell ones suitable for cooking and baking. Of course, the food ingredient manufacturers also have various types out there including for use as a dough relaxer which is probably why they put it in the rolls I bought.

Life and work got in the way of researching Shakey's. I still have the samples in my freezer that my neighbor brought back from California a few months ago. I pulled one piece from the freezer and smelled it before heating it. Getting plain cheese slices makes life a lot easier. Even frozen, the slice had THAT SMELL (tm). They are dumping something into Shakey's mix to improve the flavor of the dough. Figuring out what is the hard (and expensive) part.

[DNA Dan]

I have tried fresh yeast which was "deactivated" by heating, essentially lysing the cells. No silver bullet. All these yeast lysate additives are essentially glutamate deriviatives in a non-salt form. They add "unami" to the flavor. The smell I get from these products is different from "that smell" as far as I can tell. The tones garlic romano seasoning cooks up a wonderful aroma, so I am starting to think this is just part of the pizza parlor experience. It's definitely in the dough, but when you go to places like this it hits you like a wall when you walk in. It permeates the restaurant, linens, etc. I have since been trying "mushroom seasoning" in some on my asian and pizza ventures. It does add a meaty "unami" taste, very savoury but this taste to me is different than "that smell". To me the smell is more like stinky feet. Which is more like a Candida smell and not so much yeasty or beefy. This is more in line with it being a cheese product.

[Chicago Bob]

Is "the smell" there in these new Ye Ole' Parlour's being opened?