Author Topic: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza  (Read 38308 times)

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Offline Zing

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #125 on: April 24, 2013, 11:29:47 PM »

I find it amazing that I have the same desire for Pizza Hut thin crust. Until I found this message board and a few others, I thought it was still like the old days where the pizza might be terrible or might be great. Now I know (because everything is made in factories) it will never be great again. I wonder how long it will be before I finally no longer have a desire for this pizza.


Online nick57

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #126 on: April 25, 2013, 08:52:58 PM »
I agree. I must be a masochist, I'll go back to PH hoping for the best, and I am always sorry I did. It's that wonderful feeling when you remember the good old days. I remember when the pies came on a cardboard disc and it had a paper tent that covered the pie. I loved tearing it open and smelling that wonderful aroma. Ah memories, at least the big pizza chains can't take that away.

Offline Zing

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #127 on: May 08, 2013, 01:55:29 PM »
I came across a March, 2013 review of the Shakey's in Warner Robins, GA. The review is credited to Eaton Wright of the Macon Telegraph. I read other reviews by Eaton Wright, and believe the critic is older, as there are references to now-closed Shakey's in Georgia.

This quote from the review got my attention:
"..............diehards will tell you they barely notice their surroundings as soon as that unique smell of Shakey’s pizza greets them at the door."

The full review is here:
http://www.macon.com/2013/03/29/2414785/choose-shakeys-for-nostalgic-family.html

Now this critic is experienced, so would know if the smell is coming from, say, spilled beer on the floor of a carpeted restaurant. Note that the two words THAT and SMELL are in the review. Warner-Robins reportedly still uses a deck oven. But the samples I get come from a store with a conveyor oven. I think there is more to it than the oven used.

I keep posting hoping that someone can place THAT SMELL(tm)*

*THAT SMELL is a trademark of DNA Dan.


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2013, 12:58:40 AM »
Dang man all this talk about pizza had me dusting off the conveyor tonight.  :chef: Here's the latest MLBP from my kitchen.

Offline TomN

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2013, 01:18:20 AM »
Looks like a tasty pie. Nice work.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2013, 11:24:57 AM »
Dang man all this talk about pizza had me dusting off the conveyor tonight.  :chef: Here's the latest MLBP from my kitchen.
Ha! Scrolling up from the bottom of the page and seeing the pie pics first I knew it would be DNA Dan posting in one of his beauties. Gorgeous pizza Dan!  :chef:

Would you please share formula for this one...I want to try it asap!  :drool:

Bob
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #131 on: May 12, 2013, 01:38:39 AM »
I have gotten away from the boiled down malt liquor and started using beer straight. Not quite the same but sure is a hell of a lot easier. Here you go..

481g All Trumps Flour (Unbromated)
232g Red Hook ESB
10g Salt
10g Lard
10g Sugar
6g Tones Garlic Romano Seasoning
3g IDY (Fleischmann's)

This is enough to make a 16" pie in the 0.125-0.2 thickness range. This one was a 48 hour cold ferment. The All Trumps isn't that hydrated at 48%, but I have found if you just dump it into a bag all crumbly and refrigerate a few hours it will become wetter. You can then press it into a ball. I actually made two doughs, one I let ferment at RT for 4 hours, then put it in the cooler. The other went into the cooler directly after mixing. The RT ferment was very flat with not a lot of bubbles going on. So the cracker crust rule still applies, undermix the dough and don't develop it too much. Even with the sheeter I have had the best results abiding by this rule.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2013, 11:15:40 AM »
I have gotten away from the boiled down malt liquor and started using beer straight. Not quite the same but sure is a hell of a lot easier. Here you go..

481g All Trumps Flour (Unbromated)
232g Red Hook ESB
10g Salt
10g Lard
10g Sugar
6g Tones Garlic Romano Seasoning
3g IDY (Fleischmann's)

This is enough to make a 16" pie in the 0.125-0.2 thickness range. This one was a 48 hour cold ferment. The All Trumps isn't that hydrated at 48%, but I have found if you just dump it into a bag all crumbly and refrigerate a few hours it will become wetter. You can then press it into a ball. I actually made two doughs, one I let ferment at RT for 4 hours, then put it in the cooler. The other went into the cooler directly after mixing. The RT ferment was very flat with not a lot of bubbles going on. So the cracker crust rule still applies, undermix the dough and don't develop it too much. Even with the sheeter I have had the best results abiding by this rule.
Great Dan, thanks. Sounds very interesting and I want to try this right away.  :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #133 on: August 16, 2013, 02:01:17 AM »
Hello!  I've studied the RT threads with great interest.   DNA Dan, your pizzas ALWAYS make me hungry and also hit my nostalgia button hard.  I grew up in Ohio eating pizza that look uncannily like yours.  I always thought they were a "special invention" of the local pizza shop.  Since coming to the forum and learning about Round Table, I went back and did some research on the owner of the pizza shop.  It turns out he went to school in California and managed -- surprise, surprise -- a Round Table Pizza restaurant.   Apparently he was considering opening a RT franchise but opted to go independent.  I've never had a RT pizza, but I've had many, many of the "Ohio" version of the RT that look just like yours.

What stands out most about his pizza was the sauce (and lots of gooey cheese -- both yellow and orange).  The sauce always had a strong fennel taste.  (At least I thought it was fennel, but could also be tarragon or anise as these could taste similar in a sauce.) All of which leads me to ask,

Dan -- What are you using for sauce these days?  I tried Lydia's sauce and it was good, but not very close to the sauce I remember.

Keep up the great work and mouth-watering photos.

--Tim


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #134 on: August 18, 2013, 11:52:01 AM »
Hi Tim. Great to hear about your experiences. This is definitely a technique that many learned from the original 3, (Two if you don't include Straw Hat Pizza.) then went out and started their own businesses. It's a pretty regional style in terms of customer preference. I have taken so much from the forums and members here that I certainly don't mind sharing my recipe and tips. I actually think of this style as a dying genre, almost like the arcades of the 80's. The more people that know about it and can replicate it, it just might stay around longer.

For the sauce I have been using the following recipe. It isn't a clone of anything, just something that I have manipulated over the years with different member input. I use a spray dried beer extract from butcher and packer. It's a maltodextrin-based product which contributes some "sweetness" to the sauce, therefore there is no sugar in the sauce. Alternatively, you can omit the water and use the Red Hook ESB to replace it. This maintains the malt, but isn't as sweet. Also, if you want more flavor, kick it up to 3-4 tsp. per batch. I can is good for ~1.25 pizzas. Enjoy!

Malty Laminated Beer Pizza Sauce

Mix the following:
3 tsp. Mexican Oregano         
2 tsp. Beer Buds, Dried beer extract (www.butcherpacker.com)
1 tsp. Granulated California garlic (NOT garlic salt.)
1 tsp. Ground Fennel (Mortar and Pestle ground)
1 tsp. Fennel (Whole)   
½ tsp. Paprika
½ tsp. Ground Coriander   
¼ tsp. Salt
¼ tsp. Black pepper   
¼ tsp. Cayenne      

To make the sauce:
6 oz. Can Heinz tomato paste   (1 can)
4 oz. Water (~2/3 can)

Add 2 tsp. to tomato paste. Stir in water, cover and refrigerate 24-48 hours.
 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 11:57:19 AM by DNA Dan »

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #135 on: August 20, 2013, 02:50:09 AM »
Dan,

Thanks SO much for posting your sauce recipe.  I will give it a try soon.  I made a couple of pizzas with your latest recipe (at Reply 131) over the weekend.  I converted it to baker's percentages and came up with:

Flour (100%):    481.39 g  |  16.98 oz | 1.06 lbs
Red Hook ESB: (48.198%): 232.02 g  |  8.18 oz | 0.51 lbs
IDY (.623%): 3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Salt (2.077%): 10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.08 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
Sugar (2.077%): 10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.51 tsp | 0.84 tbsp
Lard (2.077%): 10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.31 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
Tone's Garlic Romano Seasoning (1.247%): 6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.73 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
Total (156.299%): 752.41 g | 26.54 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.132

This is for a 16 inch pizza with nominal TF of 0.132

It appears that Tone's has stopped making the garlic romano seasoning.  I can't find it on their website and it's getting harder to find online.  I substituted Garlic Romano Sprinkle by a company called "Durkee."  I don't know how similar this is to Tone's but I like the extra flavor (and SMELL) it added to the crust.  It was also good on the bread sticks I made with the dough scraps -- melted butter, salt, and Garlic Romano sprinkle -- yum.

I didn't have any beer on-hand and so just used water.  I was pressed for time with these and so didn't do any folding and hence didn't get much lamination.  (I have achieved decent lamination in the past by using the tri-fold technique -- see next post.)  Despite these challenges I still came up with some pizzas that my family really enjoyed.  My wife says it's the closest thing to our old local pizza place in Ohio she's had in a long time.  That restaurant is no longer in business so it's especially nice to be able to make something close to that pizza at home.

The first 2 pictures are a 14 inch mushroom and Boar's Head pepperoni.  The wife likes LOTS of mushrooms.  ::)   Next 3 are a 16 inch pepperoni for me and the boys.

Dan thanks again for all your work on this pizza style and for sharing all you've learned.  I'll keep experimenting with sauces and will post when and if I come up with one that tastes close to the one I remember.   

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #136 on: August 20, 2013, 03:05:53 AM »
Here's one I made earlier this summer with a slightly different recipe, but the main thing that was different was the folding technique.  Even with just a rolling pin and some elbow grease, this type of lamination can be achieved without a par bake.

--Tim



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #137 on: August 20, 2013, 05:32:55 AM »
It appears that Tone's has stopped making the garlic romano seasoning.  I can't find it on their website and it's getting harder to find online.  I substituted Garlic Romano Sprinkle by a company called "Durkee."  I don't know how similar this is to Tone's but I like the extra flavor (and SMELL) it added to the crust.  It was also good on the bread sticks I made with the dough scraps -- melted butter, salt, and Garlic Romano sprinkle -- yum.
Tim,

Durkee and Tone's are both owned by ACH Foods and, according to http://www.achfood.com/our-products.cfm , the Durkee and Tone's products are both made in the same plant in Iowa.

Peter

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #138 on: August 20, 2013, 12:02:56 PM »
Ditto what Peter stated, it's the same stuff. I think the packaging is just a regional thing. I bought mine on the internet here: http://www.spiceplace.com/tones_garlic_romano.php

Happy to see your results and the family enjoyed it. Looks really good. What are you using for oven/baking conditions? I am really digging that singed pepperoni.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #139 on: August 21, 2013, 12:30:52 AM »
Peter and Dan,

I'm glad the Tone's and Durkee's is the same product.  I found it on amazon and it came packaged in 2 huge bottles.  Maybe I'll start using it on my breakfast cereal.   :-D  I wasn't sure about the parsley flakes so tried to separate some of them out with a sifter, but they weren't very noticeable and didn't seem to affect the taste.

Glad you like the looks of my pizzas Dan.  Since I don't yet have a conveyor pizza oven in my garage  ;)(wifey's not buying in to that one just yet), I use 3/8 in Baking Steel in my KitchenAid convection oven.  I never use the convection function because I don't want to introduce another variable.  I set the oven on its top temperature (500 degrees) but I don't know how hot the oven and the steel actually get because I don't have an IR gun.  In the past I've done this style of crust and NY style with the steel on the bottom rack for 5 minutes, then I would move the pizza off the steel and onto a rack 2 notches above that to stop browning the bottom and finish the top for another 4 to 5 minutes.  It finally occurred to me that I could just move the steel up 2 notches and get the bottom and top done at about the same time.  This has reduced my bake time to about 6 or 7 minutes and resulted in the tasty singed pepperoni.  (Prior to topping the pizza I put the pepperoni in the microwave on high for 30 seconds to de-grease them and prep them for the bake.) 

Tim

Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #140 on: August 22, 2013, 01:48:58 PM »
I gotta quit lookin at this stuff from work.  My stomach is flippin out.  :drool:

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #141 on: September 11, 2013, 09:30:52 PM »
Dan,

You may have said something about this already, but I haven't seen anything as I've reviewed this thread. It looks like you dock your skins but leave the outer inch or two undocked. Is that what you do?

Also, I never realized how similar some of your pizzas in this thread are to some of my pizzas in the Tommy's thread. Particularly the attempted Shakey's style pizzas I shared recently, but also my most recent Tommy's style pizzas. I think it's cool because we've arrived at most of these results totally independent of each other. I never realized until last night that your pizzas in this thread are based largely on Round Table.

Anyone know if Round Table docks their dough?

I had always assumed Shakey's docks their dough, but now I'm more inclined to think they don't. Tommy's does not dock their dough, and I think fazzari does not dock his dough, either (at his pizzeria). All this stuff is making me rethink how I feel about docking my Tommy's/Shakey's style pizzas.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #142 on: September 11, 2013, 10:46:44 PM »
Anyone know if Round Table docks their dough?
Nevermind. As y'all probably already read long ago, according to someone who seems to be a very reliable source, in Reply #5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg17492.html#msg17492, Round Table DOES dock their dough. Specifically, they dock a long sheet of dough before cutting the skins (which means they don't leave the outer inch or so of each skin undocked).

I'm still curious to know if you leave the outside of your skins undocked, though, Dan.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #143 on: September 12, 2013, 01:36:55 PM »
I just dock the whole thing. I have seen RT workers dock their doughs as a sheet, die cut and store. Then while dressing their doughs, I have seen workers take the skin off the sheet, flip it, then dock the hell out of it again. My understanding is that this is to reduce the amount of air bubbles, but I am confused with the amount of docking they do to their dough, it's still bubbly like crazy. So either the dough is highly prone to air pockets and they are trying to reduce this, OR the docking actually ADDS to this effect in the cooking. I am still unclear about the effects of docking on RT doughs, but I can confirm that they do it liberally on their skins.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #144 on: September 12, 2013, 04:56:17 PM »
Dan,

Tom Lehmann advocates using only a single pass of the dough docker. He once commented that he would see some workers make three or even four passes with the dough docker and said that the result was a "poker-chip". He was not talking about a cracker-style crust but maybe Round Table intentionally used multiple passes to be sure to get that poker-chip result.

Peter

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #145 on: September 13, 2013, 04:57:34 PM »
The thing is, on a good day at RT the dough is just full of air pockets and layers. I have witnessed them dock the dough like they were sanding wood. I'm talking 6, 8 even 10 passes with the docker. When that sucker came out of the oven, it was super puffy with all sorts of pockets. It wasn't "dense" by any means. I assume that is what you meant by "poker chip". I don't know if this is their protocol, or if some employees have just picked this up as a bad habit. But it would appear that this is helping the puffy situation, while keeping large bubbles to minimum. Perhaps this is akin to quilting and actually creating all those smaller pockets of trapped air once the crust expands? Reason I say this is if I don't dock, I get a pita bread, single pocket. So could the docking essentially be dividing this "potential" volume space up?

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #146 on: October 29, 2013, 12:15:32 PM »
*THAT SMELL is a trademark of DNA Dan.

I had a person tell me yesterday that they worked at a t-shirt printing place next to Subway.  They had a large order returned because of "the smell", and soon after moved the business.  They said it was almost stronger during proofing than baking.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Online SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #147 on: November 30, 2013, 06:57:28 PM »
It's been a while since I've been on; a while longer since I've contributed anything.  My latest attempt:

100% AP Flour (supermarket brand)
24% water
16% beer (I used a Scottish Ale brewed by a local brewery: Two Kilts Brewing Co)
2% salt
3% IDY

For this attempt I aimed for a 500g dough (345g flour, 82g water, 56g beer, 7g salt, 10g yeast), although I "accidentally" gave the dough an extra splash of beer, which probably added another 20-30g of beer.

I mixed everything in a food processor (got the cornmeal like consistency, then pressed it all together by hand).  Fermented overnight at room temperature.  Rolled it out by hand, folded it over (3-way letter fold one way, then in half the other way) and rolled it out again.  I cut the round using a 14-inch cutter pan as a die.  I refrigerated the crust while letting the oven heat and preparing the toppings - probably about a half hour.

Baked on a screen at the bottom of the oven, right over the element, at 400F for about 12 minutes.  The bottom was a little undercooked, but there were a few spots where I'd rolled it a little "too thin" where it browned up nice and crispy like what I'm looking for.  Most of it didn't laminate as well as I'd like.

So, next time I think I'll make a little more dough, 600-750g so that I don't have to roll it out as aggressively before cutting the round.  With luck, this should take care of the lack of lamination.  The other thing will be to bake on a preheated stone.  The toppings were cooked properly, so increasing the bake time will probably overcook them.  I need to get some extra heat to the bottom, which the stone should accomplish.

The wife said that this one is my best attempt to date, and we'd eaten the whole thing before we thought of taking any pictures (we'll try to restrain ourselves better next time round). On the right track!

Online SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #148 on: December 03, 2013, 02:51:30 PM »
Okay, latest attempt.

I made a 725g dough ball which seemed to work better, although I had more unused dough at the end of the day.

I basically used my recipe from above.

Beer selection:

The cream ale was a little on the hoppy side (not bad to drink at all - my wife likes it and she doesn't like hoppy beers), so I went with the farmhouse ale.

I didn't put in the "extra splash" of beer, which made for a drier dough.  I'm going to give some thought to increasing the hydration of my next attempt.

Mixed the dough in a food processor.

Fermented for about 18 hours at room temperature.

Rolled it out by hand.

Cut the skin, docked, and refrigerated while the oven heated up.  Heated the oven to 500F, with a stone on the lowest rack, right over the element.

Dressed the skin, then baked on a screen on the stone with the temperature reduced to 400F (I'd previously had problems with toppings over cooking, but the dough under-cooking).  Toppings are from the local grocery store.  Not the best in the world, but they are still fairly tasty and consistent enough in quality to be useful in evaluating the crust.

I baked for 10 minutes on the screen, then for another 5 directly on the stone.  In retrospect, moving off the screen was unnecessary.  Either that, or I should have used the stone the whole time.  The parts where the crust browned up nice had the "crunch" I'm looking for, so I need to even the out.

On the whole, I'm fairly pleased.  I seem to be heading in the right direction.

One question, though.  The lamination was in consistent.  What I show in the picture is nice, but there were other places where there was hardly any at all.  A lot of it is probably inconsistencies I introduced when rolling the dough out.  My question: would increasing the yeast by a percent or two help with the layering?

Offline Zing

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #149 on: December 22, 2013, 12:38:32 AM »
I have used the "Find" function to go through all 6 pages of this thread and have not found the word "deactivated". I bought a bag of rolls yesterday with a "clean label" designed to appeal to the health conscious folks but baked by a maker of extended shelf life breads. One of the ingredients on the label is deactivated yeast. Searching Google for deactivated yeast in quotes ("deactivated yeast") leads to all sorts of hits, many of which were posted by vegans. A lot mention the term "cheesy", which I found interesting since we discussed adding cheese powder in one of the cloning threads.

Anybody have any experience with these products? Some deactivated yeasts, such as the brewer's yeast products sold in health foods stores are bitter, so these can be eliminated. I'm trying to avoid buying a lot of samples that others have already shown to be unsuitable for pizza making. Health Foods stores and even Whole Foods are supposed to sell ones suitable for cooking and baking. Of course, the food ingredient manufacturers also have various types out there including for use as a dough relaxer which is probably why they put it in the rolls I bought.

Life and work got in the way of researching Shakey's. I still have the samples in my freezer that my neighbor brought back from California a few months ago. I pulled one piece from the freezer and smelled it before heating it. Getting plain cheese slices makes life a lot easier. Even frozen, the slice had THAT SMELL (tm). They are dumping something into Shakey's mix to improve the flavor of the dough. Figuring out what is the hard (and expensive) part.

About the deactivated yeast, I came across something that said "cultured flour" was used in "clean label" breads as a preservative, if the wholesale bakery did not want to use calcium propionate and thus have to declare it on the label.

In cleaning out the freezer to make room for another load of Corporate Shakey's pizza my neighbor is bringing back, I baked from the frozen state three pieces of 11 month-old Corporate Shakey's pizza. These were small pieces from a medium. They no longer filled the kitchen with an aroma. But what was interesting is "THAT SMELL"* was more pronounced from the bottom (dough) side of the pizza than the top side. This is in line with my experiments after dissecting parts of a slice and baking them separately. The flavor is in the dough. The characteristics of the aroma of the samples has changed over the months, though not the aroma itself.

This is becoming very frustrating. I have the sample, but just cannot place what it smells like. Again, my discussion only applies to current Shakey's pizza sold at corporate-owned locaations.

* THAT SMELL is a trademark of DNA Dan.


 

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