Author Topic: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza  (Read 27474 times)

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Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #140 on: August 22, 2013, 01:48:58 PM »
I gotta quit lookin at this stuff from work.  My stomach is flippin out.  :drool:


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #141 on: September 11, 2013, 09:30:52 PM »
Dan,

You may have said something about this already, but I haven't seen anything as I've reviewed this thread. It looks like you dock your skins but leave the outer inch or two undocked. Is that what you do?

Also, I never realized how similar some of your pizzas in this thread are to some of my pizzas in the Tommy's thread. Particularly the attempted Shakey's style pizzas I shared recently, but also my most recent Tommy's style pizzas. I think it's cool because we've arrived at most of these results totally independent of each other. I never realized until last night that your pizzas in this thread are based largely on Round Table.

Anyone know if Round Table docks their dough?

I had always assumed Shakey's docks their dough, but now I'm more inclined to think they don't. Tommy's does not dock their dough, and I think fazzari does not dock his dough, either (at his pizzeria). All this stuff is making me rethink how I feel about docking my Tommy's/Shakey's style pizzas.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #142 on: September 11, 2013, 10:46:44 PM »
Anyone know if Round Table docks their dough?

Nevermind. As y'all probably already read long ago, according to someone who seems to be a very reliable source, in Reply #5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg17492.html#msg17492, Round Table DOES dock their dough. Specifically, they dock a long sheet of dough before cutting the skins (which means they don't leave the outer inch or so of each skin undocked).

I'm still curious to know if you leave the outside of your skins undocked, though, Dan.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #143 on: September 12, 2013, 01:36:55 PM »
I just dock the whole thing. I have seen RT workers dock their doughs as a sheet, die cut and store. Then while dressing their doughs, I have seen workers take the skin off the sheet, flip it, then dock the hell out of it again. My understanding is that this is to reduce the amount of air bubbles, but I am confused with the amount of docking they do to their dough, it's still bubbly like crazy. So either the dough is highly prone to air pockets and they are trying to reduce this, OR the docking actually ADDS to this effect in the cooking. I am still unclear about the effects of docking on RT doughs, but I can confirm that they do it liberally on their skins.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #144 on: September 12, 2013, 04:56:17 PM »
Dan,

Tom Lehmann advocates using only a single pass of the dough docker. He once commented that he would see some workers make three or even four passes with the dough docker and said that the result was a "poker-chip". He was not talking about a cracker-style crust but maybe Round Table intentionally used multiple passes to be sure to get that poker-chip result.

Peter

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #145 on: September 13, 2013, 04:57:34 PM »
The thing is, on a good day at RT the dough is just full of air pockets and layers. I have witnessed them dock the dough like they were sanding wood. I'm talking 6, 8 even 10 passes with the docker. When that sucker came out of the oven, it was super puffy with all sorts of pockets. It wasn't "dense" by any means. I assume that is what you meant by "poker chip". I don't know if this is their protocol, or if some employees have just picked this up as a bad habit. But it would appear that this is helping the puffy situation, while keeping large bubbles to minimum. Perhaps this is akin to quilting and actually creating all those smaller pockets of trapped air once the crust expands? Reason I say this is if I don't dock, I get a pita bread, single pocket. So could the docking essentially be dividing this "potential" volume space up?

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #146 on: October 29, 2013, 12:15:32 PM »
*THAT SMELL is a trademark of DNA Dan.

I had a person tell me yesterday that they worked at a t-shirt printing place next to Subway.  They had a large order returned because of "the smell", and soon after moved the business.  They said it was almost stronger during proofing than baking.
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Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #147 on: November 30, 2013, 06:57:28 PM »
It's been a while since I've been on; a while longer since I've contributed anything.  My latest attempt:

100% AP Flour (supermarket brand)
24% water
16% beer (I used a Scottish Ale brewed by a local brewery: Two Kilts Brewing Co)
2% salt
3% IDY

For this attempt I aimed for a 500g dough (345g flour, 82g water, 56g beer, 7g salt, 10g yeast), although I "accidentally" gave the dough an extra splash of beer, which probably added another 20-30g of beer.

I mixed everything in a food processor (got the cornmeal like consistency, then pressed it all together by hand).  Fermented overnight at room temperature.  Rolled it out by hand, folded it over (3-way letter fold one way, then in half the other way) and rolled it out again.  I cut the round using a 14-inch cutter pan as a die.  I refrigerated the crust while letting the oven heat and preparing the toppings - probably about a half hour.

Baked on a screen at the bottom of the oven, right over the element, at 400F for about 12 minutes.  The bottom was a little undercooked, but there were a few spots where I'd rolled it a little "too thin" where it browned up nice and crispy like what I'm looking for.  Most of it didn't laminate as well as I'd like.

So, next time I think I'll make a little more dough, 600-750g so that I don't have to roll it out as aggressively before cutting the round.  With luck, this should take care of the lack of lamination.  The other thing will be to bake on a preheated stone.  The toppings were cooked properly, so increasing the bake time will probably overcook them.  I need to get some extra heat to the bottom, which the stone should accomplish.

The wife said that this one is my best attempt to date, and we'd eaten the whole thing before we thought of taking any pictures (we'll try to restrain ourselves better next time round). On the right track!

Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #148 on: December 03, 2013, 02:51:30 PM »
Okay, latest attempt.

I made a 725g dough ball which seemed to work better, although I had more unused dough at the end of the day.

I basically used my recipe from above.

Beer selection:

The cream ale was a little on the hoppy side (not bad to drink at all - my wife likes it and she doesn't like hoppy beers), so I went with the farmhouse ale.

I didn't put in the "extra splash" of beer, which made for a drier dough.  I'm going to give some thought to increasing the hydration of my next attempt.

Mixed the dough in a food processor.

Fermented for about 18 hours at room temperature.

Rolled it out by hand.

Cut the skin, docked, and refrigerated while the oven heated up.  Heated the oven to 500F, with a stone on the lowest rack, right over the element.

Dressed the skin, then baked on a screen on the stone with the temperature reduced to 400F (I'd previously had problems with toppings over cooking, but the dough under-cooking).  Toppings are from the local grocery store.  Not the best in the world, but they are still fairly tasty and consistent enough in quality to be useful in evaluating the crust.

I baked for 10 minutes on the screen, then for another 5 directly on the stone.  In retrospect, moving off the screen was unnecessary.  Either that, or I should have used the stone the whole time.  The parts where the crust browned up nice had the "crunch" I'm looking for, so I need to even the out.

On the whole, I'm fairly pleased.  I seem to be heading in the right direction.

One question, though.  The lamination was in consistent.  What I show in the picture is nice, but there were other places where there was hardly any at all.  A lot of it is probably inconsistencies I introduced when rolling the dough out.  My question: would increasing the yeast by a percent or two help with the layering?

Offline Zing

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #149 on: December 22, 2013, 12:38:32 AM »
I have used the "Find" function to go through all 6 pages of this thread and have not found the word "deactivated". I bought a bag of rolls yesterday with a "clean label" designed to appeal to the health conscious folks but baked by a maker of extended shelf life breads. One of the ingredients on the label is deactivated yeast. Searching Google for deactivated yeast in quotes ("deactivated yeast") leads to all sorts of hits, many of which were posted by vegans. A lot mention the term "cheesy", which I found interesting since we discussed adding cheese powder in one of the cloning threads.

Anybody have any experience with these products? Some deactivated yeasts, such as the brewer's yeast products sold in health foods stores are bitter, so these can be eliminated. I'm trying to avoid buying a lot of samples that others have already shown to be unsuitable for pizza making. Health Foods stores and even Whole Foods are supposed to sell ones suitable for cooking and baking. Of course, the food ingredient manufacturers also have various types out there including for use as a dough relaxer which is probably why they put it in the rolls I bought.

Life and work got in the way of researching Shakey's. I still have the samples in my freezer that my neighbor brought back from California a few months ago. I pulled one piece from the freezer and smelled it before heating it. Getting plain cheese slices makes life a lot easier. Even frozen, the slice had THAT SMELL (tm). They are dumping something into Shakey's mix to improve the flavor of the dough. Figuring out what is the hard (and expensive) part.

About the deactivated yeast, I came across something that said "cultured flour" was used in "clean label" breads as a preservative, if the wholesale bakery did not want to use calcium propionate and thus have to declare it on the label.

In cleaning out the freezer to make room for another load of Corporate Shakey's pizza my neighbor is bringing back, I baked from the frozen state three pieces of 11 month-old Corporate Shakey's pizza. These were small pieces from a medium. They no longer filled the kitchen with an aroma. But what was interesting is "THAT SMELL"* was more pronounced from the bottom (dough) side of the pizza than the top side. This is in line with my experiments after dissecting parts of a slice and baking them separately. The flavor is in the dough. The characteristics of the aroma of the samples has changed over the months, though not the aroma itself.

This is becoming very frustrating. I have the sample, but just cannot place what it smells like. Again, my discussion only applies to current Shakey's pizza sold at corporate-owned locaations.

* THAT SMELL is a trademark of DNA Dan.


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #150 on: December 22, 2013, 01:19:42 PM »
I have cultured many yeasts in my starter flask before. I have tried them wet/active and wet/inactive. I did this by lightly boiling the starter after log phase and straining out the cells. IMO there is no noticeable improvement in flavor by adding more "dead" wet yeast. After a series of these "fresh yeast" experiments, I came to conclude THAT SMELL does not come from the actual yeast cells, but is a byproduct of the fermentation process (Or a some "additive" other than yeast cells). Reason I say this is I can get much more malty flavor using beer (fermentation products) rather than adding more yeast or fresh yeast. There's also a combination of things at work here. THAT SMELL is not entirely a malty smell, but also a cheesy and IMO garlic fragrance. So that is why I have been experimenting with the garlic romano and other foodservice "seasonings". I have not had corporate Shakey's in quite a while, but I know that parlour smell that I am seeking from the days of old.

I haven't played around with "nutritional brewer's yeast" in a while, but perhaps it's time I revisit this. I have used http://www.twinlab.com/product/brewers-yeast in the past with some moderate success. Lately I have been doing a 48-hour ferment and the doughs do have a fair amount of more flavor to them. Isn't quite THAT SMELL, but certainly is much more malty. It also improves the amount of blistering on the crust if that's your thing.

Frustrating yes, but having that out there gives reason to make more pizza and pave your own flavor profile. If it wasn't a trade secret they would not really have a franchise that attracted customers.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #151 on: December 22, 2013, 01:29:00 PM »
My question: would increasing the yeast by a percent or two help with the layering?


IMO the layering is not the result of gas produced by the yeast, but the result of trapped moisture in the layers. This is best achieved with a sheeter, however in your case you just need to really be conscious about how much you work the dough. One way to fake it is to make several thin skins and simply dock them on top of each other (Or do a "final" roll very lightly on the sandwich of skins). This way if you're in an over-developed state, the texture will still show some layering.

I see there are some people selling a pinch type roller for sheeting here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Inches-Dough-Sheeter-Pasta-Roller-Pizza-maker-16-/161180511389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25871b6c9d

A cheaper alternative to a motorized sheeter, but still pretty pricey. I also don't know how easy it is to adjust the thickness. There have been a few of these from different folks popping up lately.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #152 on: December 22, 2013, 05:27:33 PM »
SquirrelFlight,

Possible reasons why your lamination was inconsistent:
  • Skin was taken out of the fridge too early (or put in too late). If you let a laminated skin warm at all before topping and baking, there's a chance the layers could merge together and become more like a single-layered skin.
  • Baking temperature. 400 is very low. To me that's not even baking; it's more like warming. With that low of a temperature, instead of actually baking the skin, the first few minutes of baking could simulate proofing. If so, then that could be just like letting the skin warm up, which likely creates a situation very similar to my first bullet point. (I don't know, though, because I've never baked a pizza at that low of a temperature.)
  • Screen. Especially when combined with the low baking temperature, baking on a screen might create conditions not unlike proofing for several minutes, which could make the skin's layers merge.
  • How you rolled the skin. One thing I do before folding and laminating my dough for this kind of skin is roll it as thin as possible; much thinner than a sheeter could roll it. (I think I actually got this idea from one of Dan's posts from several years ago.) Not only does this make it easier to roll the dough after you fold it, but it also seems to create a more ideal crust than if you don't do it this way.
  • Too much yeast. 3% IDY is a ton of yeast. As long as you're not overfermenting your dough (which you very well may be doing, considering your dough's high yeast percentage AND the long room-temperature bulk-ferment), excessive yeast is probably one of the reasons why you don't end up with the laminated texture you seek. That is, if the yeast is still alive and working by the time you roll a skin, it's gonna keep working at a very fast rate, which probably makes the layers merge, just like if you put the skin in a proofer; even at cold temperatures.
My experience says rolling by hand can achieve the same results as rolling with a sheeter. (It just takes a lot more work.) And having baked two nearly identical laminated pizzas a week ago (one I rolled by hand and one I rolled with member waltertore's sheeter), I am even more convinced that what I just said is true, because I couldn't tell any difference between the hand-rolled pizza and the sheeted pizza. By the time the two pizzas were cut and served, I had lost track of which was which, and I wouldn't have been able to identify which was which based on how they turned out. The only procedural differences between these two pizzas were: 1) One was sheeted while the other was hand-rolled; and 2) The skin I rolled by hand was rolled about 16 hours earlier than the skin I rolled with the sheeter.

Rather than baking at a lower temperature in response to the toppings not getting done, I'd crank the oven all the way up, stop using the screen, and instead peel the topped skin directly onto the stone. In fact, that's almost exactly what I've done with my own laminated pizzas, except I used to bake my laminated pizzas on a perforated pan, rather than on a screen. As far as I'm concerned, screens are useless except when used as makeshift cooling racks. Screens are for beginners and people/organizations who value ease and convenience over quality (like Domino's). Unless you're baking in a conveyor oven, a screen is nothing but an obstacle between your pizza and the heat/thermal mass that's supposed to bake the pizza. There's essentially no point in using a stone to bake a pizza if you put a barrier between the pizza and the stone's heat (unless the style of pizza you're baking requires a pan to keep the pizza's shape).

I know all about sharing pictures that are not necessarily representative of the entire pizza. Most of my Tommy's pics are from pizzas like that. Not anymore, though. As of summer 2013, I don't have to be picky when sharing pics of my Tommy's clones, and I really make no effort to take good pictures. Pretty much every pic is representative of the entire pizza. I didn't even take pictures of the pizzas I made in Walter's classroom because both of the pizzas looked just like the most recent pictures I've shared (regarding the lamination, anyway).

If you increase the yeast, it will likely only take you in the wrong direction. If I was you, I'd start by cutting the yeast in half. The long room-temperature bulk-ferment, especially in conjunction with that much yeast, screams "overfermented" to me. (That probably doesn't really affect the issues you're having with lamination, though.)

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #153 on: December 22, 2013, 07:14:02 PM »

I see there are some people selling a pinch type roller for sheeting here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Inches-Dough-Sheeter-Pasta-Roller-Pizza-maker-16-/161180511389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25871b6c9d


$550 dollars for that lil piece of nothing is criminal.....Gene could clone that for 50 bucks!
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #154 on: December 22, 2013, 10:09:50 PM »
Also SquirrelFlight,

Your dough formula is unbelievably stiff for a laminated crust and would probably make you happier if it had some fat in it. I wouldn't even think about trying to laminate that dough (but I would be willing to try it for a single-layer crust). I'd suggest increasing the hydration to at least 43% and also adding 2%-5% fat. My current Tommy's dough is 43% hydration plus 5% shortening, and it's as stiff of a dough as I would even consider laminating by hand. And with each one I make, I think maybe it's still a little more crispy/crunchy than it needs to be.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #155 on: December 23, 2013, 01:20:10 PM »
$550 dollars for that lil piece of nothing is criminal.....Gene could clone that for 50 bucks!

Still cheaper than $1000-$3000 USD for a commercial sheeter. After you roll a few by hand, it doesn't seem so expensive. Who is Gene? If he could make such a device I am sure there would be a few folks on here interested in buying one really cheap.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #156 on: December 23, 2013, 02:16:41 PM »
Still cheaper than $1000-$3000 USD for a commercial sheeter. After you roll a few by hand, it doesn't seem so expensive. Who is Gene? If he could make such a device I am sure there would be a few folks on here interested in buying one really cheap.
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #157 on: December 23, 2013, 03:45:18 PM »
Well there's definitely a niche there if it can be made cheap enough. I wonder out of the $550 just how much of that is the material cost? A roller of this size is very helpful in the kitchen for making sheets of dough for several things; ravioli, pasta, shaping fondant for cakes, making tortillas, pizza!, etc., etc. I use my sheeter for a lot of different stuff. I am surprised imperia or someone else hasn't made something like this for residential use already.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #158 on: December 23, 2013, 07:41:16 PM »
Well there's definitely a niche there if it can be made cheap enough. I wonder out of the $550 just how much of that is the material cost?
50 bucks....tops!  :o
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #159 on: December 23, 2013, 08:56:24 PM »
I am surprised imperia or someone else hasn't made something like this for residential use already.

I'm not surprised. As much as I'd like someone to manufacture a simple 16" manual sheeter not unlike the one Gene made, I also understand that the entire market for such a sheeter consists of about 10 people, which means it will probably never happen. I'd actually prefer to have another pizza geek make me a crude manual sheeter and sell it to me for a little more than it cost to make it (or something like that).


 

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