Author Topic: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!  (Read 44141 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2011, 01:20:31 AM »
John,

I am glad you found all of Peter Reinhartís doughs and really like them.  I wondered when you said you tried out Reinhartís NY style dough how you would like it.  I was then amazed at the results.  :) Since you posted you like the stretch and folds, did you see the new article on the Pizza Quest website about Peter Reinhart explaining about the stretch and folds and what they do?  I will be waiting to see your results with bread flour. 

Thanks for all your experiments.

Norma

Thanks Norma...good info

Hey, the last pizza in the series....5 days in the fridge, reball 6 hours prior to baking....you know the best part about these doughs...you don't need a lot of cheese...makes em a little healthier???
John


Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2011, 06:56:28 AM »
John,

Your 5 day cold ferment Reinhart NY style pizza looks amazing!  :chef:  What I wondered is how the amount of yeast used .80 % can go for such a long cold ferment.  Did you start out with a lower final dough temperature?  The amount of olive oil 6.67% is really high too.  What do you think this high amount of olive oil does to the dough?

You have me intrigued with this dough.  I made one dough ball yesterday to try today.  I will see if I can get anywhere near your results.  Will post under your thread how it works out.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2011, 10:21:13 PM »
John,

I must say I agree with you in my first experiment with Reinhartís NY style dough.  ;D  Even with a one day cold ferment the pizza tasted better to me and Steve than a one day cold fermented Lehman dough.  I am going to try a Reinhart NY style dough next week with a longer cold ferment.  What I donít understand is this dough seemed ready today with the amount of yeast used.  I donít know what makes this pizza so good, but maybe it is the high amount of oil that is used. 

Steve said  now he also is going to try and make this kind of pizza.  Steve also gave this a thumbs up. 

This was an easy dough!

Pictures below of how my dough looked today and the final pizza.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2011, 10:24:11 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2011, 10:25:52 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2011, 10:47:31 PM »
I like em Norma!!!!
Your pictures reminded me, that one of my employees (really gettin into food) explained the texture of this dough in his mouth as spiderwebby...I thought that was interesting, I think he meant it had a gelatin-material  like texture...kinda hard to explain, but your pictures say it all!!!  I haven't had a Lehman dough in a while, but I thought the one day Reinhart new york style was better tasting than the classic dough....agreed??

John

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2011, 10:57:22 PM »
John and Norma,
Love those pies! Nice work as always! They look sooo goood!
 :pizza:


-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2011, 11:20:48 PM »
I like em Norma!!!!
Your pictures reminded me, that one of my employees (really gettin into food) explained the texture of this dough in his mouth as spiderwebby...I thought that was interesting, I think he meant it had a gelatin-material  like texture...kinda hard to explain, but your pictures say it all!!!  I haven't had a Lehman dough in a while, but I thought the one day Reinhart new york style was better tasting than the classic dough....agreed??

John

John,

Thanks for saying you liked the Reinhart NY pizza.  I have made Lehmann doughs many times and so has Steve.  Both of us agreed that the Reinhart pizza was better than the Reinhart classic pizza.  I am getting so caught up in these Reinhart doughs and am interested where it will take me.  Who knows.  ::) This pizza today browned better than any of my Lehmann doughs in my deck oven.  

Norma


John and Norma,
Love those pies! Nice work as always! They look sooo goood!
 :pizza:


Bill,

Thanks from me.  :) This dough is really easy and the final pizza had a great taste.

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2011, 11:38:32 PM »
John,

Your 5 day cold ferment Reinhart NY style pizza looks amazing!  :chef:  What I wondered is how the amount of yeast used .80 % can go for such a long cold ferment.  Did you start out with a lower final dough temperature?  The amount of olive oil 6.67% is really high too.  What do you think this high amount of olive oil does to the dough?

You have me intrigued with this dough.  I made one dough ball yesterday to try today.  I will see if I can get anywhere near your results.  Will post under your thread how it works out.

Norma
Norma, as I always say,,,I'm simply an observer....I didn't take a final dough temp when I mixed, but I did use lukewarm water as instructed.  Can't comment on the amount of oil, except that as time goes on I will experiment with various factors and see what happens.  By the way, on your above pictures, did you reball, and if you did, when did you reball.  I've been looking at the pictures I've taken first with the neo neapolitan, and then with the classic dough, going all the way back to September...and I've noticed that in all the months I reballed 2 hours prior to bake, the bottom always baked blotchy, and speckled..but when I started the 5 to 10 hour prior reball, the bottoms are all golden brown..just something I noticed but can't explain!!!  Great work!!

John


Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2011, 11:57:20 PM »
Norma, as I always say,,,I'm simply an observer....I didn't take a final dough temp when I mixed, but I did use lukewarm water as instructed.  Can't comment on the amount of oil, except that as time goes on I will experiment with various factors and see what happens.  By the way, on your above pictures, did you reball, and if you did, when did you reball.  I've been looking at the pictures I've taken first with the neo neapolitan, and then with the classic dough, going all the way back to September...and I've noticed that in all the months I reballed 2 hours prior to bake, the bottom always baked blotchy, and speckled..but when I started the 5 to 10 hour prior reball, the bottoms are all golden brown..just something I noticed but can't explain!!!  Great work!!

John

John,

I am also an observer, but I did take my final dough temperature and it was 75 degrees F.  I didnít use warm water.  I just used  water at room temperature.  I did 2 reballs before I put the dough in the refrigerator, over about 45 minutes time.  I didnít do any reballs today.   I did use ADM flour  though. 

Will be interesting to see how you experiment with this dough.  Interesting to hear about when you do the reballs at different times how that changes the bottom of the crust.

Thanks for trying this dough and getting me interested!  :)

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2011, 10:58:46 PM »
My second attempt at the Reinhart New York style pizza dough.  This time I raised the hydration to 67%, just to see what would happen. I also used King Arthur Bread flour.  Here is the calculator to make 6 - 12 ounce dough balls:

Flour (100%):
Water (67%):
IDY (.80%):
Salt (2.22%):
Canola Oil (6.67%):
Honey (4.44%):
Total (181.13%):
Single Ball:
1149.46 g  |  40.55 oz | 2.53 lbs
770.14 g  |  27.17 oz | 1.7 lbs
9.2 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.05 tsp | 1.02 tbsp
25.52 g | 0.9 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.57 tsp | 1.52 tbsp
76.67 g | 2.7 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.63 tbsp | 0.35 cups
51.04 g | 1.8 oz | 0.11 lbs | 7.3 tsp | 2.43 tbsp
2082.02 g | 73.44 oz | 4.59 lbs | TF = N/A
347 g | 12.24 oz | 0.77 lbs

Dumped everything into bowl, mixed on speed 1 for 4 minutes...rested 5 minutes...mixed 1 speed up for 3 minutes.  The dough is much stickier because of higher hydration...but if you use the Reinhart method of pouring your dough onto a lightly oiled surface, it is very easily manageable....scale, ball, refrigerate.

The following dough was in the fridge for 22 hours...it was reballed 7 hours prior to baking, and was taken out of the fridge 2.5 hours prior to baking.  Pizza was baked in home oven on quarry tiles, top shelf, 550 degrees, 6.5 minutes.  Simply fantastic, can't wait to see the dough progress this week.

John

« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 12:38:19 AM by fazzari »

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2011, 11:09:51 PM »
John,
You are making me so hungry again with them pics!Great job as always!
 :chef:
-Bill

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2011, 11:11:57 PM »
I know that I could look at the percentages but how do you think this final product would differ from the Classic dough if its hydration was dropped to 67%?
Dave
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Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2011, 11:34:20 PM »
John,

Your pie looks simply fantastic!  :) Do you like the higher hydration better and did you use ADM flour again?

Nice job!

I might try at home this week.

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2011, 12:41:24 AM »
Norma
I modified the above post to say I used KABF this test...I know bread flour is probably easier to come by.  As far as quality of pizza, this one day pizza is better than the first test...I know the rest of the week will be amazing as they age

Dave
Cant' comment on the differences in the two doughs because this particular recipe has quite a bit of oil in it

Bill
You can ask my wife, I folded one for you!!

Offline scott r

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2011, 11:03:46 AM »
I am having fun watching you guys play with this high oil dough.   It reminds me of when I was doing experiments with various oil amounts in a 62% hydration new york style pizza.   I made a batch every two days and upped the oil 1 percent each time.   By the time I got to 7 percent I stopped because right at that point it seemed as if the oil amount had begun to take away from the texture of what I consider good pizza crust, and was just starting to take it more in the territory of some type of dessert bread.    Basically what I found was that with each percentage point I raised the oil, the dough would get more and more tender.   I had settled on 6% being about the maximum I would ever recommend.  Right at that level I found that it could do wonders for non bromated medium to lower hydration doughs made with high gluten flour that could use a little help in the tenderness department.   I also noticed that this amount of oil only seemed necessary if I didn't have a really hot oven around.   Higher temps and wetter doughs seemed to need less help from the oil, but wether it was needed or not, it did bring some nice flavor to the crust.   Fazzari, I am awaiting your trials, especially as you move into the higher hydration versions, as I never spent much time doing both high hydration dough and high oil amounts in the same pizza.   I would imagine there is a point where having 6-7% oil can hold too much of the water in during the bake (probably in the 70's on up for hydration), leaving the pizza with a fully baked, but too wet sort of vibe.  Also, I wonder if it could possibly cause the cheese to burn a little too much because of its long bake tolerance once those hydrations and oil amounts get up really high.     

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2011, 12:50:19 PM »
I am having fun watching you guys play with this high oil dough.   It reminds me of when I was doing experiments with various oil amounts in a 62% hydration new york style pizza.   I made a batch every two days and upped the oil 1 percent each time.   By the time I got to 7 percent I stopped because right at that point it seemed as if the oil amount had begun to take away from the texture of what I consider good pizza crust, and was just starting to take it more in the territory of some type of dessert bread.    Basically what I found was that with each percentage point I raised the oil, the dough would get more and more tender.   I had settled on 6% being about the maximum I would ever recommend.  Right at that level I found that it could do wonders for non bromated medium to lower hydration doughs made with high gluten flour that could use a little help in the tenderness department.   I also noticed that this amount of oil only seemed necessary if I didn't have a really hot oven around.   Higher temps and wetter doughs seemed to need less help from the oil, but wether it was needed or not, it did bring some nice flavor to the crust.   Fazzari, I am awaiting your trials, especially as you move into the higher hydration versions, as I never spent much time doing both high hydration dough and high oil amounts in the same pizza.   I would imagine there is a point where having 6-7% oil can hold too much of the water in during the bake (probably in the 70's on up for hydration), leaving the pizza with a fully baked, but too wet sort of vibe.  Also, I wonder if it could possibly cause the cheese to burn a little too much because of its long bake tolerance once those hydrations and oil amounts get up really high.     

scott r,

It was interesting to hear about the tests you did with a hydration of about 62% and different amounts of oil.  I had wondered when John posted his formula how that much oil in the dough would affect the pizza.  I am now wondering how much hydration this dough can take, with all the added oil.  I donít know what the hydration is from Johnís last formula with the added oil, but it must be up there. He obtained great results in a home oven at about 550 degrees F.  Since my home oven canít get to high temperatures (only a little over 500 degrees F), I am interested how Johnís last formula would bake in my home oven.  I might try Better for Bread flour and mix up a batch to see what happens.

I am also awaiting Johnís experiments.

Thanks for telling about your experiments.

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2011, 02:12:49 PM »
Norma,

Before I started experimenting with the Papa John's clones at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html, I had gotten a fair amount of experience with member Randy's American style pizza that was also based on a Papa John's theme and called for a lot of sugar/honey and oil. My objective was mainly to make thinner versions of Randy's pizzas and to use a standard home oven and a pizza screen, as Randy did. As I noted in the thread on the subject at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310, I thought that Randy's recipe was one of the best that I had used up to that time. I didn't quite know how to describe the pizza style I ended up with so I referred to my versions as a cross between a NY style (because of the crust thinness) and an American style (because of the high sugar/honey and oil levels). I eventually changed the baker's percents of my versions of Randy's American style pizza, but I always treated them as being different than say, a Lehmann NY style, which used no sugar and a small amount of oil. I isolated the two styles in my mind so I never gave thought to picking one over the other.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2011, 04:28:50 PM »
Norma,

Before I started experimenting with the Papa John's clones at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html, I had gotten a fair amount of experience with member Randy's American style pizza that was also based on a Papa John's theme and called for a lot of sugar/honey and oil. My objective was mainly to make thinner versions of Randy's pizzas and to use a standard home oven and a pizza screen, as Randy did. As I noted in the thread on the subject at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310, I thought that Randy's recipe was one of the best that I had used up to that time. I didn't quite know how to describe the pizza style I ended up with so I referred to my versions as a cross between a NY style (because of the crust thinness) and an American style (because of the high sugar/honey and oil levels). I eventually changed the baker's percents of my versions of Randy's American style pizza, but I always treated them as being different than say, a Lehmann NY style, which used no sugar and a small amount of oil. I isolated the two styles in my mind so I never gave thought to picking one over the other.

Peter

Peter,

I know I have tried Papa Johnís dough in other experiments and didnít get the results I have so far with Reinhartís NY style pizza.  Maybe I wasnít as experienced in making pizza back then, but the formula I used for Papa Johnís wasnít that high in hydration either.  I see you posted at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58438.html#msg58438 that when you experimented with the PJ dough clone hydrations above 60% the rim were much larger and the crumb was puffier or more open and airy. Then the same reply you posted http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. but, even with higher hydrations, you are not likely to get gigantic rims. I think it is because of the limiting effects of the large amounts of oil in the dough on the retention of gasses by the gluten matrix.  Did you change your mind about that?

I never tried Randyís American Style thin version, but I see how much sugar/honey is used in the formula, but it doesnít have the high amount of oil used in the Reinhart NY style John is trying with the higher hydration. 

Do you think Reinhartís NY style is really a NY style or an American style or a combination of both? 

I made a dough today following Johnís directions to just dump everything into the mixer.  I have taken pictures of what the dough looked like after it came out of the mixer and after I did 2 stretch and folds.  I used Better for Bread flour and changed the oil to Bertolli extra light olive oil.  If John or you wants to post the pictures of what my dough looked like, I will.  I donít know how long to let this dough cold ferment to see what kind of results I will get in my home oven.  Do you have any suggestions for how long I should let the dough cold ferment for the first experiment?  Since my home oven canít even get to as high as Johnís home oven, I am interested in seeing what happens, if I can get somewhat the same results I did at market.  I did use 0.10 for my thickness factor for a 14" pizza.

I also wanted to test out another idea that I saw on the new PMQ pizza magazine posted by Tom Lehman, when he talked about how water affects dough at PMQ pizza magazine http://pmq.com/digital/201104/  page 16.  Tom said, that water quality certainly does have an effect on dough quality, but not as much as many believe it has.  He goes on to say if two dough balls were made exactly alike, but used hard water for one dough and soft water in the other, you would see that the dough made with soft water was softer an a little slacker than the dough made with hard water.  He goes on to explained in the article, if anyone is interested in reading the whole article, about how the different waters do or do not affect the final pizzas. I wanted to try my regular tap water, which I know is very hard, because I have well water.  I usually use bottled water I buy for my doughs. 

Do you think at some point you might try out Reinhartís NY style pizza?

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2011, 06:43:33 PM »
Norma,

I know I have tried Papa Johnís dough in other experiments and didnít get the results I have so far with Reinhartís NY style pizza.  Maybe I wasnít as experienced in making pizza back then, but the formula I used for Papa Johnís wasnít that high in hydration either.  I see you posted at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58438.html#msg58438 that when you experimented with the PJ dough clone hydrations above 60% the rim were much larger and the crumb was puffier or more open and airy. Then the same reply you posted http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. but, even with higher hydrations, you are not likely to get gigantic rims. I think it is because of the limiting effects of the large amounts of oil in the dough on the retention of gasses by the gluten matrix.  Did you change your mind about that?

About the only things I would add is that the way the pizza is baked can also have an effect on the size of the rim. I was using only a pizza screen for all of my PJ experiments since I was trying to stay true to the PJ methods. As a result, I never tried baking a PJ clone pizza on a pizza stone. However, a few other members have reported doing so. Also, I was using a thicker crust than the versions of Randy's pizza that I made.

Quote
I never tried Randyís American Style thin version, but I see how much sugar/honey is used in the formula, but it doesnít have the high amount of oil used in the Reinhart NY style John is trying with the higher hydration.

That is true. However, one of the things I learned about dough recipes that call for a lot of oil and sugar is that the amounts can vary over a fairly wide range without materially affecting the final results. However, the amounts have to be on the high side.

Quote
Do you think Reinhartís NY style is really a NY style or an American style or a combination of both?

At the PizzaQuest website where the Reinhart NY style recipe is posted, at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/169-ny-style-pizza-dough.html, Peter relates his recipe to the Ray's NY style. There are so many different Ray's pizza joints in NYC and I have only tried a couple. My recollection is that the Ray's pizzas I had did not look like any of the Reinhart NY style pizzas I have seen on this forum. Also, the slices I had were huge, most likely from pizzas 18" or more. I subsequently had a slice of a Ray's pizza made by a former licensee in Arizona, and I had a nice long chat with the owner, and the pizzas made there were classic NY style pizzas with small rims and no hint of sweetness or puffiness. The Reinhart NY style pizza reminds me more of an American style but with a NY style crust thickness, more like a cross between the two styles. However, there are others who are more qualified than I to say whether the Reinhart NY style is an accurate description. I saw a video recently of a pizza operator who uses eggs in what he calls a NY style. Maybe someone somewhere in NYC is making a NY style pizza with eggs, but such operators are perhaps on the tail of a bell curve of NY style pizzas.

Quote
Do you have any suggestions for how long I should let the dough cold ferment for the first experiment?  Since my home oven canít even get to as high as Johnís home oven, I am interested in seeing what happens, if I can get somewhat the same results I did at market.  I did use 0.10 for my thickness factor for a 14" pizza.

Normally, I would say one day. However, John has had such good results with longer fermentation times, you may have a lot more flexibility than I would have thought.

Quote
Do you think at some point you might try out Reinhartís NY style pizza?

I have thought about that but I will await your results. My thinking was for a larger pizza size, but that might not be possible with my pizza stone, which is limited to a 14" size. Also, I can't get the oven temperatures that John and others have been using.

Peter

Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2011, 10:00:18 PM »
Here's my second dough from this batch, and remember that even though the thread is entitled Reinhart New York Style dough....I did the first batch exactly as Mr. Reinhart discusses except for the reball, which I am convinced makes all the difference in the world.  In this dough, the hydration was raised from 62.22% to 67%, I used bread flour instead of high gluten.  I also want to explain again, that after this dough is mixed 4 minutes, rest 5 minutes, and mixed for 3 minutes...it is scaled, balled and refrigerated and is never touched again until it is time to reball.  And so, this dough was refrigerated for 46 hours, it was reballed 6 hours prior to bake time, and was taken out to warm up 2 hours prior to bake....it was baked at 550 degrees for 5 minutes 45 seconds.

John


Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2011, 10:04:43 PM »
I can't explain the texture of this most excellent dough.  It is crisp enough to stand straight out on it's own, but it is soooooo incredibly tender.  I wish the whole pizza could be the outer crust though, that's my absolute favorite part.  I have written earlier that reballing 5 to 10 hours prior to bake seems to make the bottom bake a straight golden brown all the way across....this is what I mean:

John


Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2011, 11:48:59 PM »
John,

Again, a wonderful job!  :) I really like how your bottom crust browns and the tenderness of the crumb.  I see your are getting great results with KABF.  Looks like your idea when to reball is good.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2011, 11:21:08 PM »
John and anyone else following this thread,

I had planned on making the pizza tonight from the dough I made yesterday, following Johnís last formula.  I had placed the dough ball out to warm-up for three hours.  Somehow I fell asleep and when I awoke, 3 Ĺ hrs. later my dough ball had expanded and had some bubbles on the top.  When I took it out of the refrigerator it looked like it wasnít fermented enough.  I can post the pictures what it looked like from the time I mixed it up until I fell asleep.  I then decided to reball the dough ball and put it to sleep in the refrigerator, because now it is too late to make the pizza.  I am going to make the pizza tomorrow, but it might not turn out as I wanted.

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart New York Style Pizza Dough..........very easy!!!
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2011, 11:48:17 PM »
Norma
I'll bet you money, your pie will be great tomorrow!!!  Here is dough 3 from this batch.  Fridge time 63 hours.  Reballed 6 hours prior to bake.  Taken out of fridge 2 hours prior to bake.  Baked in deck oven at work at about 570 degrees.  So, they just get better, and better and better and...

John



 

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