Author Topic: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..  (Read 2666 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mikedavid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« on: April 01, 2011, 01:55:51 AM »
Well I took my first go at making real pizza tonight:

Sorry about the images.. I'm not able to put img tags into the post (like all the other forums). I use an iphone and it has an app to directly upload to photobucket so it's super easy to take pics.

SAUCE:

I used Full Red pizza sauce to compare them back to back.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mikedavid00/6e800455.jpg

-The new York style sauce was 'very chunky', bright red, and sweet. Chunky and watery. Very odd for a pizza sauce.
-The original pizza sauce was less sweet, more salty, tad more oily, had more 'seasoning' and complimented more a cheese flavor. The texture was smooth.

We like the original pizza sauce much better. It blended better with the cheese better. The New York style seemed like it would be great in pasta mixed the veggies etc. It's hard to believe people use that on pizza due to the size of the chunks.

DOUGH

Oven stone was at about 600 or so. Here's a vid to prove it:

http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mikedavid00/?action=view&current=382dbaff.mp4


Both the Lehman and Reinhart recipe was the same as the original except for the use of the flour. I used Robin Hood Best For Bread flour homestyle white. This is popular in Canada and is made from red wheat and 13% protein.

The Lehman and Rienhart doughs both produced very similar dough as far as rise and texture etc. The difference in pic's is just the difference of how it was shaped/cooked. I shaped two the exact weight and crust and they came out almost the same. The Lehman was 2 day cold fermented, and the Rienhart was 4 day.

The texture of both came out as 'crispy cotton candy' sort of dough. Not a thick skin on the crust. Not sure if it's the flour that caused this.

Lehman Dough:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mikedavid00/5385e00f.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mikedavid00/31f3cace.jpg

Reinhart Dough: (in the below pic, special care was made to keep the bubbles in when shaping dough so because it looks like that, it's not because 'it was the Reinhart dough!')

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mikedavid00/73b1d0ea.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mikedavid00/831ccf07.jpg

VERDICT:


The Rienhart was a tad more 'dense and chewy'. Just a tad I felt. Both were good though.

But overall, the winner is...The Lehman dough. It had more flavor which is odd because it had 2 days less ferment. I brew all grain beer and we know the power of yeast and how it eats sugar and how it gives flavor. I believe, that Lehman is correct when using a larger amount of yeast and NOT adding sugar. You will get more yeast cells, eating flour and not sugar, producing more c02, and it will create more flavor into the dough.

Yeast wants to go after simple sugars. It's an extra hassle to go after flour for energy. Whenever the yeast stresses, it releases different flavors.

If some of you guys really want to bring out the flavor of your dough, you guys have got to try different yeasts. Ask any beer brewer the effect it has on flavor. Maybe the bread crowd knows best what to use. I guarantee you the big pizza names are NOT using dry Fleishman's instant dry yeast. They know the flavor that different yeast imparts.


CONCLUSION


After all the reading I've been doing and tonight's experience, I think a lot of people that make the dough should focus more on technique rather than recipe. I mean of course flour quality is important, but I did pizza in so many ways tonight. Really thick, thin, on stones, on the pizza screen. They both came out so similar with the Lehan tasting better.

Also I could swear that when the cheese warmed to room temperature, it began to separate when being cooked. The first pizza's the cheese was nice and thick and white.

I think that people should really look into using different yeast than Flieshmans IDY. I bet that yeast is meant to give out no flavor.

I'm very interested to explore different yeasts and test back to back.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 02:12:01 AM by mikedavid »


Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2011, 08:00:20 AM »

After all the reading I've been doing and tonight's experience, I think a lot of people that make the dough should focus more on technique rather than recipe. I mean of course flour quality is important, but I did pizza in so many ways tonight. Really thick, thin, on stones, on the pizza screen. They both came out so similar with the Lehan tasting better.

...

I think that people should really look into using different yeast than Flieshmans IDY. I bet that yeast is meant to give out no flavor.


Thanks very much for the detailed comparison - it was very interesting to see your results. Your pies look great! The Reinhart crumb looks to be the clear winner in terms of gluten development, but as you noted, taste is the ultimate goal.

You mention that people should try different yeast, but you did not note what yeast you are referring to. Can you elaborate? It should be noted, though, that most all commercial yeast, no matter what the brand (and brewers yeast), is the same strain of yeast.

John

Offline mikedavid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2011, 01:18:53 PM »
You mention that people should try different yeast, but you did not note what yeast you are referring to. Can you elaborate? It should be noted, though, that most all commercial yeast, no matter what the brand (and brewers yeast), is the same strain of yeast.

John


The Reinhart dough came out looking like that in the picture only because of the way I shaped the dough.

After the dough rose, I didn't actually punch down the dough around the edges of that pizza so the crust had it's original bubbles. It was time consuming to do it that way, but that's why it looked all crazy in the pic hehe.. I made other pies where it looked exactly like the Lehman dough. Here's the shaping technique I used to make the pizza like that:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obOxdsy8lDE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obOxdsy8lDE</a>


The thing with the yeast is that the yeast puts out different flavor even if it's the same strain. The standard Flieshmans yeast is a 'chico' strain of yeast which is the s-05 yeast used in beer brewing. However, depending on the vendor, they are not exactly the same because so much depends on how it was cultured.

-The yeast are smart little guys.
-The yeast know what food is around it and like to eat the simple sugars first (table sugar).
-The yeast know there's too much food around them to eat so multiply quickly.
-The yeast are lazy and always take the path of least resistance.
-When the yeast is done eating the table sugar, it will be forced to eat the flour for food.
-The problem is that the yeast multiplied earlier are bred to eat 'table sugar', not flour eating yeasts.

The yeast should give off MORE flavor and odor if being left to rise in a WARM temps for a day or two. Anything over 70 degrees should really bring out that flavor. If you have a hot house in the summer, that would be perfect. However, fridge temps should be a bit 'too cold' for the yeast which would impart a different flavor. When the yeast is stressed, it gives off more flavor.

It all depends on how the manufacturer cultures their yeast. I'd bet there is different brands of yeast that produce different results. I'd wager the standard Fleishmans IDY is very, very low in flavor. I'm going to research into the bread baking community and see what they are doing for yeast.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2011, 01:58:23 PM »
I'd wager the standard Fleishmans IDY is very, very low in flavor. I'm going to research into the bread baking community and see what they are doing for yeast.

Thanks - You might find that there are a number of bread bakers on this forum who could give you some insight.

John

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21985
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2011, 02:21:26 PM »
mikedavid,

My understanding of the way that table sugar (sucrose) is metabolized and used by the yeast runs contrary to what you posted. My understanding is reflected in Reply 111 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg79187.html#msg79187. You might also read the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&sid=e59b3e01389f0aad65b1c3b8361fd29f.

Peter

Offline mikedavid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2011, 03:42:32 AM »
mikedavid,

My understanding of the way that table sugar (sucrose) is metabolized and used by the yeast runs contrary to what you posted. My understanding is reflected in Reply 111 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg79187.html#msg79187. You might also read the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&sid=e59b3e01389f0aad65b1c3b8361fd29f.

Peter


My understanding is the opposite of his.

From the beer brewing world at least, the yeast take the path of least resistance. Many beer recipes have added dextrose (corn sugar) to up the alcohol content. The yeast know that there are two forms of food and chose the one that's easiest to eat which is the corn sugar. When it's done multiplying and eating that, it then begins to look around and feast on the harder to reach sugars.

Also, in the beer world, if you ferment with the 'chico' strain of yeast (basic bread IDY) too cold (as in fridge temps), you will get a 'cardboard' tasting flavor. The yeast is actually stressed when it's too warm or too cold. When yeast is stressed it gives off different flavors depending. Warm gives more of a sour apple flavor, cold produces a cardboard flavor.

I'd wager that the dough could taste best 'warm' fermented for a different flavor. I wish I could speak to a bread maker on this. In brewing we also use 'yeast starters' and reuse yeast cakes. It would be similar to taking a piece of finished, risen dough, putting a chunk into a NEW dough ball, and then letting the yeast cells in that little chunk find new food and multiply. The more you do this over and over, the yeast becomes more 'custom' to your setup and the flavor gets better in beer brewing. The 3rd re-use of yeast gives the best flavor when it comes to brewing.

I'm going to try to get some wholesale yeast tomorrow. I went on a chef's forum and no one uses Fleishmas yeast at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if the yeast is that missing link. That special thing to take the dough flavor to the next level. I wish I knew more about baking and yeast flavor. I'd like a bit of 'sour' and aroma in my dough.

The reason why I keep harping on the yeast is cause of the beer brewing. The yeast does everything. It loves a nice warm environment. It can give many flavors to your bear depending on temp. It's so important with brewing and beer flavor. I figure it must be the same with dough and I doubt Poppa John's, Domino's are using Fleishmans IDY.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2011, 07:34:54 AM »
My understanding is the opposite of his.

I am not sure if you are fully grasping who "he" is. "He" is Tom Lehmann. Now whether you care to agree with his extensive experience with dough (or the rest of science), that is up to you. It is fine to have dissenting opinions - it makes for interesting discussions.

There are a number of us here on the board who also have extensive experience with yeast, both commercial or natural, in dough and bread making. It appears you have some beer making experience, but you may want to ask some questions to get your answers. There is a massive amount of information and knowledge in this forum - probably the most concise you will ever find.

Don't get bogged down on yeast brand - you just need to investigate the different fermentation processes available to you to get the flavor you are after. This flavor can be achieved with any yeast (commercial or sourdough) with the proper handling and fermentation. I would suggest starting with a preferment, such as a poolish, if you are after more sourness.

If a professional baker/pizza chain is using commercial yeast, they are going to want consistency in product, and that consistency comes from large companies who know how to produce the amount of yeast necessary to sell to their market. The wholesale package of yeast you will be buying may be unlabeled - but it is most likely made by SAF, Fleischmanns, Red Star, or the like.

John

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21985
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2011, 08:48:29 AM »
mikedavid,

Since I am not a chemist or a food scientist or anything like that, and since I don't brew beer, I am at the mercy of the people who know more about the subject than I, whether it is Tom Lehmann (of the American Institute of Baking), the folks who wrote the materials at theartisan.net, or whomever.

Because of your interest in yeasts used to make beer, you might take note of the fact that a few of our members have, from time to time, experimented with yeasts with which they were familiar as a result of their using such yeasts in brewing beer. Some time ago, I even did some research on the subject in connection with the alleged use of beer yeast by Pizzeria Regina, a small regional pizza operator in the Boston area. You might find the thread on this matter of interest. It is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10382.msg91533.html#msg91533.

Peter

Offline mikedavid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2011, 01:49:13 PM »
Ok I'm going to the food wholesaler today to get some yeast.

I'm just going to use the Lehmans dough, ferment high for 6 hours, and test them all back to back.

I'm almost sure I'm going to get different flavors.

I'm going to try Fleishmans Pizza yeast vs whatever I can get at the wholesaler.

I went on Fleishmans website for Pizza yeast and they recommend the water go in very hot at 130 and ferment warm for best flavor. See I knew it! They even said the word 'flavor'.

I bet this yeast thing is the missing link as honestly I'm unsatisfied with the flavor.

I would wager that there's NO WAY the public could get their hands on commercial bear yeast. Also, the type of yeast it is, is lager yeast. This means cold fermenting yeast that ferments from the bottom up. The bread yeast we all use is ale yeast called the 'chico' strain which is very similar to standard regular bread yeast we all use.

The lager yeast needs to be fermented cold. It's meant for it. However, if it was fermented warm, wow it would give off flavor. This could be the secret key. The missing link.

I really believe the yeast to be that missing link. Also the rising temps. I'm almost sure that warm ferment (old school warm oven slightly then leave oven light on) is the way to go for flavor.

Ok going to the wholesales right now. They are closing in 2 hours.

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2229
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2011, 02:12:45 PM »


Ok going to the wholesales right now. They are closing in 2 hours.

MD,
I am in Mississauga.  What's the name of the wholesaler?  If you can't find fresh yeast there, I can tell you where to get it.

Matt


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21985
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2011, 03:43:22 PM »
I went on Fleishmans website for Pizza yeast and they recommend the water go in very hot at 130 and ferment warm for best flavor. See I knew it! They even said the word 'flavor'.


mikedavid,

Are you referring to the Fleischmann's new Pizza Crust Yeast as described at http://www.pizzacrustyeast.com/faq.html? If so, that is a specialty product formulated just for pizza dough. It has been discussed several times on the forum, including at Reply 295 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102395/topicseen.html#msg102395 and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10261.msg90062.html#msg90062. As I understand it, that yeast is intended to make a dough very quickly. On this forum, we refer to such doughs as "emergency" doughs. There is even a thread devoted exclusively to such doughs at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8297.0.html. The key to making such doughs is to use a lot of yeast (as used in the recipe at http://www.pizzacrustyeast.com/step.html) and very warm water. Since the yeast is buffered by the flour, you can use water up to about 130 degrees F without killing the yeast. BTW, you can do the same exact thing with the regular Fleishchmann's IDY, or any other vendor's comparable product.

Yeast used in large quantities imparts its own flavor to the finished product. According to Professor Raymond Calvel, in his book, The Taste of Bread, the taste of yeast (fresh yeast) is not discernible until the usage level reaches 2.5% (at page 19). The comparable amount of IDY is 0.83%. For the dough recipe posted at the Fleischmann's Pizza Crust Yeast website, I estimate the yeast quantity (one full 7g/0.25oz packet) to be 2.61-3.36% of the flour weight. That should impart a great deal of yeast flavor to the finished crust. So, I wouldn't read too much into the yeast flavor comment at the Fleischmann's website.

Peter

buceriasdon

  • Guest
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2011, 04:20:25 PM »
Peter, I found it interesting they included dough conditioners in with the IDY for quicker workability.
http://pizzacrustyeast.com/new_pizza_yeast.html
Don

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21985
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2011, 04:40:49 PM »
Peter, I found it interesting they included dough conditioners in with the IDY for quicker workability.
http://pizzacrustyeast.com/new_pizza_yeast.html
Don


Don,

Yes. You can see the list of ingredients at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/keyword/fleischmann039s-pizza-crust-yeast. The L-cysteine is one of the components of PZ-44 that is sometimes used by pizza operators to help their doughs relax and reduce the springback effect, as noted at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1499.msg13649/topicseen.html#msg13649.

Peter

buceriasdon

  • Guest
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2011, 04:46:10 PM »
Thanks for the link Peter, quite the favorable write up by the author.
Don

Offline mikedavid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2011, 08:45:14 PM »
I'm such an idiot. I got back from the wholesaler and totally forgot the yeast :(.. they were closing at 4pm and we rushed around. However, we did get a 50lb back of Caputo pizza flour!!!

I can only test the flieshmans pizza vs IDY back to back.

see what I found??

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mikedavid00/bca0286d.jpg

(I really need to be able to attach [img] tags like 99.9% of the other forums allow.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 09:23:00 PM by mikedavid »

Offline mikedavid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2011, 08:53:20 PM »
MD,
I am in Mississauga.  What's the name of the wholesaler?  If you can't find fresh yeast there, I can tell you where to get it.

Matt

Go to MVR cash and carry. They close at 4pm and are closed on Sundays.

You need a membership to shop there meaning you need a business number, but just pretend at the cash that you didn't know and they'll let you go by (we did it twice).

Also don't spread the word around on that if you can. I'm not sure they are not 'allowed' to sell to the public so keep it under wraps that they'll let you go through.

Oh yes and also go around all the fridge sections. You won't believe how cheap the pepperoni is compared to the grocery store. Also this gives you an authentic restaurant taste.. not grocery store.

The more I'm learning about meats and foods, the more I realize that the 'general public' get the worst cut of meat, and the worst quality foods. THe best almost always seems to be reserved for the 'industry'.. not general consumers.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 08:56:40 PM by mikedavid »

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2229
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2011, 06:53:56 AM »
Go to MVR cash and carry. They close at 4pm and are closed on Sundays.

You need a membership to shop there meaning you need a business number, but just pretend at the cash that you didn't know and they'll let you go by (we did it twice).

Also don't spread the word around on that if you can. I'm not sure they are not 'allowed' to sell to the public so keep it under wraps that they'll let you go through.

Oh yes and also go around all the fridge sections. You won't believe how cheap the pepperoni is compared to the grocery store. Also this gives you an authentic restaurant taste.. not grocery store.

The more I'm learning about meats and foods, the more I realize that the 'general public' get the worst cut of meat, and the worst quality foods. THe best almost always seems to be reserved for the 'industry'.. not general consumers.


That's where I go.  Next time you go there ask for Anna (the owners wife), explain your situation & ask if she can register you.

Matt

Offline mikedavid

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Lehman vs Reinhart - made both tonight..
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2011, 03:07:53 PM »

That's where I go.  Next time you go there ask for Anna (the owners wife), explain your situation & ask if she can register you.

Matt

Hey thanks for the tip.

Is there anywhere else you like to go for ingredients and such?

For wares I like Nella Cutlery in Toronto. I'm wondering where I can get blue steel deep dish pans..


 

pizzapan