Author Topic: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ  (Read 2912 times)

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Offline joiseystud

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Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« on: April 03, 2011, 09:26:15 AM »
Has anyone had pizza from the Sun tavern in NJ?  http://suntavernpizzeria.homestead.com/
The thin crust pizza is so good you can eat two pies to a head.  I would love to replicate that pizza since I dont live too close to their locations anymore.



buceriasdon

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 09:40:03 AM »
Not a true recipe from Star Tavern however an interesting read and a good start.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12769.0.html
Don

Has anyone had pizza from the Sun tavern in NJ?  http://suntavernpizzeria.homestead.com/
The thin crust pizza is so good you can eat two pies to a head.  I would love to replicate that pizza since I dont live too close to their locations anymore.



Offline JConk007

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 08:13:24 AM »
I will give it try this week I'd I get a chance and let you know. Looks to be a cracker crust low hydration run through a sheeter. very similar to Kinchley here in ramsey that everybody raves about. Always willing to try something new
John
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Offline EZPIZZA

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 08:17:26 PM »
I have had their pizza and you are right I can eat two pies by myself. I ran across this link that describes making the sun tavern pizza, but I have not tried making it yet.

Let us know how it turns out if you try it.

http://www.rvafoodie.com/?p=2814
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 08:23:42 PM by EZPIZZA »

buceriasdon

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2011, 08:52:34 AM »
It's a good blog but it should be noted this is an interpetation of the Star Tavern pizza, not the recipe.
Don

I have had their pizza and you are right I can eat two pies by myself. I ran across this link that describes making the sun tavern pizza, but I have not tried making it yet.

Let us know how it turns out if you try it.

http://www.rvafoodie.com/?p=2814

Offline BTB

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 09:17:04 AM »
It's a good blog but it should be noted this is an interpetation of the Star Tavern pizza, not the recipe.
Don, I have a different "spin" on this.  Nowhere is there any substantial "evidence" that the original claim of a great lover of this pizza is inaccurate.  What you have . . . later on in the story . . . is that a son of the original owner says upon being questioned is . . . "oh no, that's not it!"  How credible is one who wants to protect the originality of the recipe of a successful product? 

I like the story, and . . . admittedly the credibility of the guy who just  . . . LOVED the pizza and learned about it with from his pizzamaking friend at the tavern who was then the ORIGINAL owner.  That . . . just to me . . . maybe . . . is more credible than the son's "oh no, that's not included in the recipe" claim.  Other than the one son's quote, is there any credible experience showing otherwise?  And other than the one son's statement (and only statement that I've seen) is there any other basis for discrediting the original claim?  But yet that's what all the disbelievers of the original claim are holding onto.  Or didn't I see it right?

From my experience with adding a bit of semolina, the original claim seems more accurate than not to get that kind of crispinest.  Just one man's opinion.  So, for the record, I believe that the original Star Tavern pizza recipe did include some semolina.  I'm anxious to hear of our pizzamakers experience with this specifically.  Can we do some side-by side comparisons?  How about one pizza with . . . and one without?

                                                                            --BTB       :angel:

buceriasdon

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 09:51:08 AM »
The orginal owner states they did NOT make the dough in house but was made by a local baker who would NOT devulge the recipe. The orginal owner gave the method of baking and some ideas on the dough to Doug's dad, the writer of the blog. Doug's comment from Slice:
When my father spoke to the owner of Star, the owner said that they got their dough from a local bakery. This was over 15 years ago, so I do not know if that is still the case. But back then, Star did not make their dough. The local baker was very secretive about his recipe and absolutely refused to share any specifics. Although Star bought his dough, they did not know exactly what was in it. So, when he told my father how to make the dough, he was providing a rough sketch based on vague conversations with the baker, not a detailed recipe. Although it's possible that the Star dough contains no semolina, the owner at the time was fairly certain that it did.

Don



Offline BTB

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 09:35:01 AM »
The orginal owner states they did NOT make the dough in house but was made by a local baker who would NOT devulge the recipe.
I don't think that is accurate.  Your hearsay quote is not from the "original owner" nor is it from the alleged "local baker" who did the alleged "refusal" to divulge.  It is hearsay -- third party recitals claiming someone else said something but who weren't there to know -- and the last important statement is ignored in my estimation:
 
Quote
Although it's possible (in the light of claims that there was not) that the Star dough contains no semolina, the owner at the time was fairly certain that it did.

To me an owner of a successful business is most often a remarkable individual. I don't disbelieve some writer somewhere along the way might add that into the story, but I find the contrary story incredible.  I would say, like one current political candidate, . . . "you're fired!" to the dough maker if he (or she) told me that they weren't going to tell me the formulation.  Is that claim more probable or less probable?
 
It's clear that the Star Tavern owner had the dough mixed together elsewhere (not uncommon at some places), BUT the owner of the tavern surely should have a say so, or knowledge of, the components of that dough, one would normally think.  The retiree in this story says he was told the recipe by the owner included semolina.  And someone now says . . . no it doesn't.  Who to believe?  Somehow, . . .  someway, I like the story and choose, voluntarily, to believe the story of the old man who so loved this style pizza so much (coupled a little bit with my semolina experience).
 
Here if we are to believe that the dough maker can keep the formulation absolutely secret, then the dough maker has cart blanc right to do anything they want without approval "from the boss,"  I have to say that I find that version of the story to just not be believable.
 
I knew some taverns in my day that made some great bar style pizzas and their kitchens weren't set up so well and they had outside people make up their dough or their sauce, salad dressing, or what-not.  But to my knowledge, the formulations were to the bar owner's specifications.  If the dough maker had an idea or thought about modifying the formulation, he or she would clear or discuss it with the owner first and get mutual agreement.  But to keep it secret?  Nonsense IMHO.
 
As written by the son of the retiree who so loved his Star Tavern pizza, "although it is possible (in the light of some claims) that the Star Tavern dough contains no semolina, the owner at the time was certain that it did."  Repeat . . . "was certain that it did!"
 
One commentator on the thread referenced above wrote:  "I made the dough as directed (with semolina) and it was a big success. The rigid crust made every bite thin and crunchy, light and delicious." 
 
While much of what we all say is somewhat hearsay, can we do some side-by side comparisons and determine for ourselves?  One pizza with . . . and one without?  I'm betting on those with semolina as the winner, but either way, we all will be a winner with some great tasting pizzas.
 
                                                                                          --BTB

buceriasdon

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2011, 04:51:28 PM »
One of many great quotes from the movie A Princess Bride: Vizzini to Wesley as the battle of wits begins: "Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me!"  Both goblets contained poison but our hero Wesley had acquired an immunity and won the battle of wits. I'm sure it is a great recipe no matter how convoluted the story about how it came into being.
Don  ;D

 


Offline BTB

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2011, 08:22:26 AM »
Don, that was one of the goofiest movies in the world starring that "giant wrestler" (now dead), but I vividly remember that scene, which was a pretty good one and I can see why you remembered it so well. Which Goblet to take? ? ?  As you know, it can be subject to many interpretations and I'm having a bit of trouble interpreting it's application here, but here's a try:  In the beginning . . . . father tavern owner says so and so and son decades later says otherwise.  Father says "I knew," . . . son decades later says . . . "I know, too, but dad was wrong."  Some now say Dad didn't know the "truth," but now son decades later says he knows the "truth" (where he claims his dad didn't) even tho the truth was to be kept a secret even from the son by the evil troll dough mixer.  (Does anybody want a drink yet?)

I took the two goblets, poured out the contents, washed them out, put in a good single malt scotch with a tiny bit of very cool water (a must for veteran single malt scotch enthusiasts), and  . . . . now I feel much better.

And Don, I'm just joking around with you (as I think you are with me).  But in all endeavors, the philosophers will say that what we are all looking for is . . . the truth.  In my estimation, the truth lies in the original story of the Star Pizza retiree pizza lover.  He knew the recipe and the retiree's son (not the son of the original tavern owner) is fairly accurate in originally reflecting it.  I'm in the mist of my semi-annual relocation for the summer and am hopeful we can hear about some of the experiences of our pizzamaking enthusiasts here as to which is the best for them . . . or other pluses and minuses.   

                                                                                                        --BTB     :P


buceriasdon

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2011, 12:23:45 PM »
A quote from Doug on Slice comments:
"Hey everybody. I'm the person who wrote the piece on making Star pizza. My intention was to provide people with information to supplement their own experiments, especially here in the South where bar pizza is mostly unknown. There are lots of ways to make pizza, and this is all I know because it is what I was taught. I am not making Star pizza,I am trying to make Star pizza. If you follow the recipe expecting to replicate Star exactly, you will be disappointed."

I am taking Doug at his word, and this statement is why I have maintained it's not the recipe for Star Tavern, it's Doug's recipe for a bar style pizza. I don't question that Doug's father had some sort of recipe for the dough to begin with, but if it was original recipe I can't fathom Doug's reason to not say it was the original.  :D
Don

Offline BTB

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Re: Sun Tavern Pizza - NJ
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2011, 02:31:01 PM »
I am taking Doug at his word, and this statement is why I have maintained it's not the recipe for Star Tavern . . . I don't question that Doug's father had some sort of recipe for the dough to begin with, but if it was original recipe I can't fathom Doug's reason to not say it was the original.
Did Slice get suckered in when they said:  ""It's not just a guestimated clone recipe, it apparently came from Star Tavern's owner at the time."  Doug in the original article said his father said it was the original recipe.  Why not take the father's word?

You are taking the word of someone who claims to be the original author, but the person who wrote the elaborate technique, recipe, description and article here http://www.rvafoodie.com (after the first two paragraphs), and that was adopted in an elaborate way on Slice does not seem to be the person who wrote the brief comment you referenced.  Seems a puzzlement.  Seems . . . "this is the way it was per my father" vs. "well, not quite . . ."   See any inconsistency?  "I wrote this elaborate article with pictures describing the Star Tavern technique, but . . . it wasn't!" ? ? ? Like in Denmark something doesn't smell right. 

Was the alleged subsequent Doug M posting bogus or misleading?  Some harbor that thought.  But if not, then Slice's spot on How to Make a Star Tavern Pizza (this how-to post from a friend on Caramelized OpiNIONS on making Star Tavern pizza at home) . . . "It's not just a guestimated clone recipe, it apparently came from Star Tavern's owner at the time" is not quite so.

But in any event, it should make some interesting pizzamaking trials.  But I will not be able to do so in the next few or so, but hopefully others will.  For the time being, I'm going to go and refill that goblet.

                                                                                --BTB


 

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