Author Topic: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing  (Read 8325 times)

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Offline Mmmph

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2011, 11:46:45 AM »
I thought about freezing the CY, but was not sure what effect it would have on the fresh yeast.
Good to know that is an option.
I know I can freeze dough balls and use with success.
Can you give me a quick explanation why it needs 24 hours , when a small piece would defrost in just a few minutes ?

Perry

I was told to give it a day in the fridge by Donna Bocian Currie (Regular contributor dbcurrie on Slice), a smart person. I was also told to double the amount of yeast in the recipe when using previously frozen CY.

Because I divvy up a one pound block into eaight 2oz. (50g) pieces, each piece isnt that small. 1"x1"x1.5". I then keep a chunk this size in the fridge for weeks. As soon as I see it changing color, I toss it and pull another chunk out of the freezer. At $1.50/lb, each chunk costs me 19 cents. No biggie, and it's always on hand.
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Offline JimmyMak

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2011, 07:23:49 PM »
John what is that you like about CY. By the way you got great thing going there. Just a hobby or you thinking of going pro.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2011, 07:59:45 PM »
 Thanks JMak.
 I like the way the yeast is dissolved  into the water first, its a kind way to introduce the yeast to the flour. Has bit stronger taste in my opinion and the bigger rise in the crumb.( especially when you use way too much )  I have a long way to go with the cake yeast. But not one to give up.  Going Pro, me ? I am a rookie compared to most on this forum. So a restaurant is probably not in the cards for me. If someone offered me a Stephano  Oven and a great location who could turn that down? However  I would not mind "bringing pizza to the people"  and spreading the Neapolitan goodness to those who have not had the pleasure of a soft light as a feather crust with some slight char combined with the best toppings and cheese available? vrooom vroom   :pizza:---- :pizza:
John
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2011, 07:58:07 AM »
Hey guys,
I love the Fleischman's cake yeast and find that it ads a great taste to the dough.  I buy a large commercial block for $1.50 and freeze it.  I then put it in a large freezer bag and crumple it up so it is granular.  It helps to freeze it flat and then rough it up it as it freezes.  This makes it great for spooning out.  I like to replace it after about three months.
A couple of months ago I stopped at a NJ pizza place and found that their dough tasted much like mine, so I assume they are using the same yeast.  Here is the funny thing about that.  This is a small neighbor hood Neopolitan shop with an Italian oven,  They could not use a wood fired in the old house that it is set up in.  The people who own it are very charming and I talked with them for hours. They use Caputo and were trained by Roberto.  He is a good friend of theirs.  In fact his wife works for a distributor and every bag of Caputo that enters the US goes through her.  They have many pictures on the wall including them with MR. Caputo.  The place is not to far from Bridgewater NJ.  Here is a link http://www.lunapizzanj.com/.  I am not an expert on a perfect Neopolitan but I enjoyed their pies.  No matter what, they are very friendly and love to talk about things, it was really worth the trip.

Bob

Offline JimmyMak

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2011, 07:56:35 PM »
John, how long do you bulk before balling & into fridge.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2011, 08:46:05 PM »
all depends if I am doing next day or 2 days later if its next day I bulk at room for like 3 hrs then just overnight  fridge ball am and room temp rise . The 2 day dough goes right in fridge Bulk, (Fri night) 1 1/2 days (Sunday)am ball and fridge  then 5hr min room rise  prior to bake. something like that . Oh and also depends on humidity, type of yeast, fridge temp, time of the season, angle of the sun, how full the moon is and ...... Just kidding I'm not that crazy,  YET?  I can kind of tell in a clear container how the fermentation process is going along and make slight adjustment to try to get it close.
John
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2011, 08:49:03 PM »
Bob 1,
Does your wife work with Fred Mortani (sp)of Orlando food corp. ? He brings in some serious caputo!!
John
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 09:29:20 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2011, 09:09:47 PM »
Hey guys,  just wondering is the flieshmans in an unlabled white block form?  My first fresh yeast experience was with a 1 oz block of redstar and it was different than the flieshmans.  I made yeast rolls with it that cannot be replicated with the flieschmans.  Strangely enough,  long after that,  I an intuitist tell me not to use flieshmans,  and it was at least partially responsible for gluten intolerance.  She was a bread baker too,  and mostly sourdough,  but she said she felt that redstar was fine in any form,  but not the flieshamans.  She went so far as to say that this information would come out at some point.   I would AB them if I could,  but cant find the redstar again....  sorry for the whacky post,  but it did happen,  and I have not been able to forget it.  Also, I am not trying to discourage anyone from using flieshnmans,  but she was.  -marc

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2011, 09:29:49 PM »
Yea Marc the flieshman CY comes in a white plastic wrap and has a round sticker on it. They were selling the small cubes of cy at Shaws and they were RedStar. If you have a Shaws near you you could check them out.

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2011, 09:46:39 PM »
David,  thanks.  I will check,  and let you know. -marc


Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2011, 12:19:12 PM »
I made my second batch of pies with the CY that has been in my refrigerator for about 3 weeks.
While the dough performed very well, I did not get the taste benefit that I found with my initial batch.
I'm wondering if the freshness of the yeast is crucial to the flavor ?

Offline scott r

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2011, 12:29:22 PM »
I did a side by side test last week with an unknown brand of cake yeast  and IDY.   it came in a plain white plastic wrapped package close to the size of a box of butter.  I will ask the bakery next time im there which brand it is.   Anyhow, I was very excited because the dough itself smelled different than the idy dough, but strangely after baking I couldn't taste any difference between the two crusts.   I tend to use tiny amounts of yeast, so is it possible that you need to use larger amounts to tell any difference?    Maybe its the brand, not sure?   

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2011, 12:33:01 PM »
I actually used a bit more than I did in my first batch
First batch was 3 grams w/ 500 grams flour
This batch 5 grams with 700 grams flour
I know with my ADY I'm able to see the bubbling in a few minutes after dissolving in water
With the CY , there  was no bubbling...normal ?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2011, 01:16:52 PM »
I did a side by side test last week with an unknown brand of cake yeast  and IDY.   it came in a plain white plastic wrapped package close to the size of a box of butter.  I will ask the bakery next time im there which brand it is.   Anyhow, I was very excited because the dough itself smelled different than the idy dough, but strangely after baking I couldn't taste any difference between the two crusts.   I tend to use tiny amounts of yeast, so is it possible that you need to use larger amounts to tell any difference?    Maybe its the brand, not sure?   


scott r,

As I noted in Reply 73 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg120400/topicseen.html#msg120400, Professor Calvel said that you needed to get to 2.5% fresh yeast for its taste to be discernible.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2011, 01:33:17 PM »
aaah, ok I thought I was crazy.  I would never need to use that much.   

Offline scott r

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2011, 01:34:43 PM »
it does smell different before baking, so it does make sense that it should have tasted different.   Im still curious to play around with this idea and do more tests with different brands of fresh yeast and the smaller yeast amounts that I typically use.  
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 04:10:43 PM by scott r »

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2011, 02:42:34 PM »
scott r,As I noted in Reply 73 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg120400/topicseen.html#msg120400, Professor Calvel said that you needed to get to 2.5% fresh yeast for its taste to be discernible.
Peter


Peter,
I noticed that Calvel was writing about French Bread, not pizza.
Are the two interchangeable ?
Does his process also use long fermentation ?
Perry

Offline scott r

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2011, 02:49:41 PM »
hes definitely not referring to long fermentation if the yeast is at 2.6%!  I would assume it would be even easier to detect the difference in bread than it would be in a pizza crust with sauce/cheese etc.   In my test I was tasting an un topped pizza crust.  
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 02:52:04 PM by scott r »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2011, 03:58:23 PM »
Professor Calvel set the 2.5% outer limit for fresh yeast for basic French bread. In just about all of the basic French bread dough recipes in his book, he calls for less than 2% fresh yeast. The only time he goes to 2.5% is for the straight dough method with intensive mixing, which he said he did not recommend. Professor Calvel also has several recipes in his book for specialty breads that go as high as 4% fresh yeast, but these seem to be for breads where it is desired to achieve short production times, typically under three hours. We would call those doughs "emergency" or short-term doughs if they were to be used to make pizzas. I did not find any dough recipes that call for cold fermentation of the final doughs although Professor Calvel allowed for cold fermentation of prefermented doughs. There is only one recipe in the book for pizza, and that is for a pissaladiere, which is basically bread dough (using a preferment in this case) that is used to make the pizza.

The question of similarity between bread dough and pizza dough has come up on several occasions on the forum and I think that most will agree that there are many similarities. Of course, there are some differences, such as knead times and degree of gluten development, fermentation protocol (e.g., room temperature vs. cold fermentation), form factor (flat for pizza and much greater height for breads, other than flat breads), and special baking steps (such as using steam when baking breads). However, at the science level, there are many common factors shared by bread and pizza doughs. To what extent the differences are affected by fresh yeast and the amounts used, and the nature and duration of fermentation, I have no idea. However, I know that for certain pizza doughs that are to be made in a short period, such as Chicago deep-dish doughs and cracker-style doughs, it is quite common to use considerably more yeast, in whatever form, than for most other doughs. Since these doughs are often run through commercial sheeters or rollers, the gases are forced out of the skins but what remains is the flavor profile of the yeast, with a dominant yeast flavor in the final product that is distinguishable from the flavors contributed by byproducts of fermentation. Some people like that type of flavor, but others often do not.

The debate about the use of fresh yeast versus the other forms of yeast (IDY and ADY) has been with us for as long as all three forms of yeast have coexisted. Cook's Illustrated says that fresh yeast produces more gas than the other forms of yeast. However, as I noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5894.msg50515/topicseen.html#msg50515, when the AIB, where Tom Lehmann works, ran tests using the three different forms of yeast, they could not detect the difference in the final products. I suspect that they used cold fermentation rather than room temperature fermentation since that is more common for the professionals that AIB tends to serve most.

Peter

Offline Mmmph

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2011, 04:24:54 PM »
A small measure of CY (075% or less) with a 24 hour room temp bulk rise makes for an outstanding pizza skin.
Soft, light and fragrant with a beautiful crumb.
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato