Author Topic: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing  (Read 10744 times)

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Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2011, 12:19:12 PM »
I made my second batch of pies with the CY that has been in my refrigerator for about 3 weeks.
While the dough performed very well, I did not get the taste benefit that I found with my initial batch.
I'm wondering if the freshness of the yeast is crucial to the flavor ?


Offline scott r

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2011, 12:29:22 PM »
I did a side by side test last week with an unknown brand of cake yeast  and IDY.   it came in a plain white plastic wrapped package close to the size of a box of butter.  I will ask the bakery next time im there which brand it is.   Anyhow, I was very excited because the dough itself smelled different than the idy dough, but strangely after baking I couldn't taste any difference between the two crusts.   I tend to use tiny amounts of yeast, so is it possible that you need to use larger amounts to tell any difference?    Maybe its the brand, not sure?   

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2011, 12:33:01 PM »
I actually used a bit more than I did in my first batch
First batch was 3 grams w/ 500 grams flour
This batch 5 grams with 700 grams flour
I know with my ADY I'm able to see the bubbling in a few minutes after dissolving in water
With the CY , there  was no bubbling...normal ?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2011, 01:16:52 PM »
I did a side by side test last week with an unknown brand of cake yeast  and IDY.   it came in a plain white plastic wrapped package close to the size of a box of butter.  I will ask the bakery next time im there which brand it is.   Anyhow, I was very excited because the dough itself smelled different than the idy dough, but strangely after baking I couldn't taste any difference between the two crusts.   I tend to use tiny amounts of yeast, so is it possible that you need to use larger amounts to tell any difference?    Maybe its the brand, not sure?   

scott r,

As I noted in Reply 73 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg120400/topicseen.html#msg120400, Professor Calvel said that you needed to get to 2.5% fresh yeast for its taste to be discernible.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2011, 01:33:17 PM »
aaah, ok I thought I was crazy.  I would never need to use that much.   

Offline scott r

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2011, 01:34:43 PM »
it does smell different before baking, so it does make sense that it should have tasted different.   Im still curious to play around with this idea and do more tests with different brands of fresh yeast and the smaller yeast amounts that I typically use.  
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 04:10:43 PM by scott r »

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2011, 02:42:34 PM »
scott r,As I noted in Reply 73 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg120400/topicseen.html#msg120400, Professor Calvel said that you needed to get to 2.5% fresh yeast for its taste to be discernible.
Peter

Peter,
I noticed that Calvel was writing about French Bread, not pizza.
Are the two interchangeable ?
Does his process also use long fermentation ?
Perry

Offline scott r

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2011, 02:49:41 PM »
hes definitely not referring to long fermentation if the yeast is at 2.6%!  I would assume it would be even easier to detect the difference in bread than it would be in a pizza crust with sauce/cheese etc.   In my test I was tasting an un topped pizza crust.  
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 02:52:04 PM by scott r »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2011, 03:58:23 PM »
Professor Calvel set the 2.5% outer limit for fresh yeast for basic French bread. In just about all of the basic French bread dough recipes in his book, he calls for less than 2% fresh yeast. The only time he goes to 2.5% is for the straight dough method with intensive mixing, which he said he did not recommend. Professor Calvel also has several recipes in his book for specialty breads that go as high as 4% fresh yeast, but these seem to be for breads where it is desired to achieve short production times, typically under three hours. We would call those doughs "emergency" or short-term doughs if they were to be used to make pizzas. I did not find any dough recipes that call for cold fermentation of the final doughs although Professor Calvel allowed for cold fermentation of prefermented doughs. There is only one recipe in the book for pizza, and that is for a pissaladiere, which is basically bread dough (using a preferment in this case) that is used to make the pizza.

The question of similarity between bread dough and pizza dough has come up on several occasions on the forum and I think that most will agree that there are many similarities. Of course, there are some differences, such as knead times and degree of gluten development, fermentation protocol (e.g., room temperature vs. cold fermentation), form factor (flat for pizza and much greater height for breads, other than flat breads), and special baking steps (such as using steam when baking breads). However, at the science level, there are many common factors shared by bread and pizza doughs. To what extent the differences are affected by fresh yeast and the amounts used, and the nature and duration of fermentation, I have no idea. However, I know that for certain pizza doughs that are to be made in a short period, such as Chicago deep-dish doughs and cracker-style doughs, it is quite common to use considerably more yeast, in whatever form, than for most other doughs. Since these doughs are often run through commercial sheeters or rollers, the gases are forced out of the skins but what remains is the flavor profile of the yeast, with a dominant yeast flavor in the final product that is distinguishable from the flavors contributed by byproducts of fermentation. Some people like that type of flavor, but others often do not.

The debate about the use of fresh yeast versus the other forms of yeast (IDY and ADY) has been with us for as long as all three forms of yeast have coexisted. Cook's Illustrated says that fresh yeast produces more gas than the other forms of yeast. However, as I noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5894.msg50515/topicseen.html#msg50515, when the AIB, where Tom Lehmann works, ran tests using the three different forms of yeast, they could not detect the difference in the final products. I suspect that they used cold fermentation rather than room temperature fermentation since that is more common for the professionals that AIB tends to serve most.

Peter


Offline Mmmph

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Re: Cake Yeast vs Dry - Amazing
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2011, 04:24:54 PM »
A small measure of CY (075% or less) with a 24 hour room temp bulk rise makes for an outstanding pizza skin.
Soft, light and fragrant with a beautiful crumb.
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato