WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?

[JConk007]

Ron,
Just ask TX Craig what you can do if you have a desire for a great oven and are able to get one at a great price!
look for the thread WFO odessy 2011 its a great read
JOhn

[Meatballs]

John,

 can you provide a link please, I can't find anything but this thread in the search.

 thanks,

Ron

[BrickStoneOven]

John,

 can you provide a link please, I can't find anything but this thread in the search.

 thanks,

Ron

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13438.0.html

[PizzaDiFiore]

I think this is a move towards more honest ingredients.  Many of the new wave pizzerias are using quality ingredients made with thought and care.  The old guard pizzerias, in Baltimore at least, are very processed and made using cheap low qualityty ingredients.  There are a couple of cool places in Baltimore that use honest ingredients with thought and care, and they're not using WFO's. 

I saw the same bubble 15 years ago with Specialty Coffee.  I opened my first espresso bar in DC in 2001 after working as a Barista for a few years.

[pizzablogger]

I think this is a move towards more honest ingredients.  Many of the new wave pizzerias are using quality ingredients made with thought and care.  The old guard pizzerias, in Baltimore at least, are very processed and made using cheap low qualityty ingredients.

I agree with you.

However, I am also seeing a new trend where the ingredients themselves are of very good quality, but the pizza still leaves a lot to be desired. Over the past couple of years, these types of places seem to have a penchant for calling themselves "Gourmet Pizza", either directly in their advertising, as part of a review by some type of media release or in my direct conversations with owners.

High quality ingredients alone do not make a good pizza....and too many seem to be focusing way to much on this. High quality is indeed desireable, but without competent technique and managment of the pizza making process from mixing to eventual firing in the oven, you've likely got an overpriced, mediocre pizza as a result.

I'll take moderate quality toppings on top of a killer crust over high quality toppings on a mediocre crust any day of the week. --K

[forzaroma]

Better ingredients better pizza papa Johns. LOL

[pizzablogger]

Pizzafiore....not ranting here, just speaking out loud. You brought up a good topic.

I forgot to mention it is also relatively easy to go the higher quality toppings/ingredients route.

Assuming one has the commitment to do so, some legwork of researching which farms are nearby, visiting the farms to talk with ownership and try products...and learning about which producers are available to ship high quality product in where local farms are not supplying a particular item are needed.

Dittos with some thought on how to best combine various ingredients (some are more adept than others at this).

These do take some effort and time, and a commitment to go this route is commendable, but again, it's pretty easy really for anyone to "get" to this level.

But the ins and outs of consistently making a great dough...one that is well matched to the cooking application being employed (i.e. a dough good for a WFO may not be the best for a gas-fired deck oven NY Style), is not easy. It simply takes time to get a "feel" for dough making...and too many pizzerias are rushing to open without having gotten anywhere near this step in the process.

I'm not implying I could do any better in a retail joint, but it's absolutely flabbergasting for me, being someone who has only a moderate amount of knowledge about pizza (not nearly the level of many members here), to see new establishments open and then either by watching the pizzeria in action and/or talking with ownership and/or the pizzamakers there, realize the people are relatively clueless about pizza.

[Grimaldi]

I think WFO artisan pizza is a trend, not a bubble. A bubble implies a mania...I'm not seeing that.

 

[scott123]

I'm not implying I could do any better in a retail joint, but it's absolutely flabbergasting for me, being someone who has only a moderate amount of knowledge about pizza (not nearly the level of many members here), to see new establishments open and then either by watching the pizzeria in action and/or talking with ownership and/or the pizzamakers there, realize the people are relatively clueless about pizza.

I've worked in a lot of professions- advertising, law, acting, software development, construction, data entry, teaching, retail, security, banking- I even spent a few weeks hauling around furniture in a warehouse. Out of everything that I've done and all the people I've met, I've never met anyone stupider than chefs.  The only thing that's come close is model-actors. For whatever reason, food tends to attract people that aren't smart enough to do anything else. Even the best of the best CIA trained professional chefs are really very ignorant compared to other trained professionals. Most of my friends who attended the CIA have reading levels of about a 5th grader. Sure, you've got your Thomas Kellers, your Tony Bourdains, your Ferran Adria's, but those are far from the norm. Historically, chefs have always been self destructive, alcoholic, egotistical non-thinkers, and even with innovations in food science, very little has changed.

For every pizzeria you walk into, you're going to meet 10000 Guy Fieri's for every 1 Thomas Keller.  That's the nature of the business.

*Disclaimer. Any chef/pizzeria employee smart enough to turn on a computer and post to an online forum is part of the very small intelligent minority. In other words, if you're a chef reading this, congratulations, you're not one of the dumb chefs that I'm referring to.

[SinoChef]

Hmm sounds personal........

*Disclaimer. Any chef/pizzeria employee smart enough to turn on a computer and post to an online forum is part of the very small intelligent minority. In other words, if you're a chef reading this, congratulations, you're not one of the dumb chefs that I'm referring to.

As long as we have the big wide brush out. Lets try it like this...

Disclaimer. Any ( * race, religion, nationality )  smart enough to turn on a computer and post to an online forum is part of the very small intelligent minority. In other words, if you're a ( * ) reading this, congratulations, you're not one of the dumb ( * ) that I'm referring to.

Sounds great!

A profession is defined by "the development of formal qualifications based upon education, apprenticeship, and examinations, the emergence of regulatory bodies with powers to admit and discipline members, and some degree of monopoly rights."

Nursing is a profession. There is a required level of education you need, a long with apprenticeship, examinations. Once you meet these requirements,  a regulatory board in conjunction with the state issues you a license. (Temporary)The same in some form is true for, police, lawyers, accountants, architects etc. These are professions.

Unfortunately for food service, all you need is a white coat and a big silly hat. I always cringe when I hear people say things like, "oh my son is a chef at the Olive Garden". Or he is a "pizza Chef". Especially if we are going to use the same term to describe people like Keller, Adira, Pallidian, Trotter, Towers, etc.

It would be the same as a roofer/plumber telling people he is an architect. A briefcase and a tie does not make you a lawyer, any more then owning a pair of scrubs and a stethoscope makes you a doctor.

Culinary Artistry is a good book to read if you need help with the definition between some who cooks for money and a Chef.

http://www.amazon.com/Culinary-Artistry-Andrew-Dornenburg/dp/0471287857

The only point of your post I could find (other then chefs are really stupid) seems to be a response to Pizzablogger being flabbergasted at the level of "clueless" he is seeing.

Even the best of the best CIA trained professional chefs are really very ignorant compared to other trained professionals. Most of my friends who attended the CIA have reading levels of about a 5th grader.

IQ level of the people you hang out with aside. If you are speaking to the technical knowledge of a CIA grad. I agree. You pay your 40- 60,000$ and 2 years later they give you a white coat, and a big silly hat and tell you, you are now a chef (clueless). If your lucky you can find some one with deep pockets, who thinks a 2 year vocational degree is all it takes to make a chef (also clueless), and open a restaurant.

I have the CIA textbook. Soulless, standard recipes.  And it even states that in the preface.'The recipes in this book are only to serve you with the basic guidelines...' I don't think the CIA grads ever read that part. They have a very expensive degree, and the basic repertoire given to them. No need for them to expand. So I will also give you  "egotistical" and "non thinking"  with in that context. 

Sure, you've got your Thomas Kellers, your Tony Bourdains, your Ferran Adria's, but those are far from the norm.

Ha! Please, even Bourdain would not put himself at the same level of those 2. His "les Halle" cookbook was not cutting edge gastronomy. Just good solid food. Keller, Adria, are not the norm for sure.

But I would say Bourdain is in fact the typical chef. Well read, highly intelligent, strongly opinionated, with a penchant for cold Heineken. These are the people I hang out with. Most have worked abroad, and are able to speak one or more different languages.

(Also Bourdain might be offended you removed him from your, "self destructive, alcoholic, egotistical" generalizations. )

Try his book, Kitchen Confidential, for a better explanation.

http://www.amazon.com/Kitchen-Confidential-Adventures-Culinary-Underbelly/dp/0060934913

Truth be told, any low paying job is going to attract, for what ever reason, the same kinds of people.

It is unfortunate that you want to clump an entire sector of the work force like that. But I guess you may be right.

There is really nothing to define the difference between the Olive Garden "Chef" and the guy that is driving his BMW 6 series home at night.

Anyway, back to the global financial WFO oven meltdown bubble.

[Pizzamaster]

It wouldn't be WFO if it didn't have bubbles. Sorry couldn't help myself lol.

[Bill/SFNM]

It wouldn't be WFO if it didn't have bubbles. Sorry couldn't help myself lol.

Finally, someone got the pun!

[Pizzamaster]

What word would you use to describe all these new, upscale joints? The word "artisan" is frequently used to differentiate them from joints with lower operating costs and lower prices.

Speaking of descriptions. I have been watching America's Next Great Restaurant. What is this silly fast casual crap? It's fast food.

[gabaghool]

My pet peeve is the use of "brick oven." Too often that means a vaguely dome-shaped oven regardless of fuel, deliberately using the association of brick oven with wood-fired oven. I'd much rather a pizzeria use a gas or electric deck oven honestly than a gimmicky "brick oven" that has no superior pizza baking ability. There's a place near my work with a gas-fired Woodstone oven that manages to make pizza smell and look terrible. I do mean awful. It may seem difficult, but this place has it down to a science. Easily the worst-looking, least appetizing pizza I've ever encountered.

Another is marketing gluten-free pizza as magically healthier for people without medical issues related to gluten or wheat. That is an insult to anyone who involuntarily has to eat gluten-free. I know several celiacs (unlikely as that may be), including my girlfriend, and they would love to be able to eat a regular pizza. Given how much sugar, eggs and fats they often add to gluten-free products to make them more palatable, my girlfriend says "twice the calories, half the flavor" is a rule of thumb for them.

It's a terrible diversion for a generally good trend towards healthier eating with better ingredients.

Im sorry, I don't understand why an oven lined with bricks, regardless of fuel is NOT a brick oven.  If you are saying people THINK its wood fired right off the bat, well then, thats that person's fault.  In the restaurant business a brick oven is a brick oven, regardless of fuel.  ANd a sign saying brick oven pizza means a pizza cooked directly on heated bricks, that all.  I think any place with a WFO will clearly STATE that its a wood fired oven, not simple a brick oven.

[gabaghool]

Hmm sounds personal........

As long as we have the big wide brush out. Lets try it like this...

Disclaimer. Any ( * race, religion, nationality )  smart enough to turn on a computer and post to an online forum is part of the very small intelligent minority. In other words, if you're a ( * ) reading this, congratulations, you're not one of the dumb ( * ) that I'm referring to.

Sounds great!

A profession is defined by "the development of formal qualifications based upon education, apprenticeship, and examinations, the emergence of regulatory bodies with powers to admit and discipline members, and some degree of monopoly rights."

Nursing is a profession. There is a required level of education you need, a long with apprenticeship, examinations. Once you meet these requirements,  a regulatory board in conjunction with the state issues you a license. (Temporary)The same in some form is true for, police, lawyers, accountants, architects etc. These are professions.

Unfortunately for food service, all you need is a white coat and a big silly hat. I always cringe when I hear people say things like, "oh my son is a chef at the Olive Garden". Or he is a "pizza Chef". Especially if we are going to use the same term to describe people like Keller, Adira, Pallidian, Trotter, Towers, etc.

It would be the same as a roofer/plumber telling people he is an architect. A briefcase and a tie does not make you a lawyer, any more then owning a pair of scrubs and a stethoscope makes you a doctor.

Culinary Artistry is a good book to read if you need help with the definition between some who cooks for money and a Chef.

http://www.amazon.com/Culinary-Artistry-Andrew-Dornenburg/dp/0471287857

The only point of your post I could find (other then chefs are really stupid) seems to be a response to Pizzablogger being flabbergasted at the level of "clueless" he is seeing.

IQ level of the people you hang out with aside. If you are speaking to the technical knowledge of a CIA grad. I agree. You pay your 40- 60,000$ and 2 years later they give you a white coat, and a big silly hat and tell you, you are now a chef (clueless). If your lucky you can find some one with deep pockets, who thinks a 2 year vocational degree is all it takes to make a chef (also clueless), and open a restaurant.

I have the CIA textbook. Soulless, standard recipes.  And it even states that in the preface.'The recipes in this book are only to serve you with the basic guidelines...' I don't think the CIA grads ever read that part. They have a very expensive degree, and the basic repertoire given to them. No need for them to expand. So I will also give you  "egotistical" and "non thinking"  with in that context.  

Ha! Please, even Bourdain would not put himself at the same level of those 2. His "les Halle" cookbook was not cutting edge gastronomy. Just good solid food. Keller, Adria, are not the norm for sure.

But I would say Bourdain is in fact the typical chef. Well read, highly intelligent, strongly opinionated, with a penchant for cold Heineken. These are the people I hang out with. Most have worked abroad, and are able to speak one or more different languages.

(Also Bourdain might be offended you removed him from your, "self destructive, alcoholic, egotistical" generalizations. )

Try his book, Kitchen Confidential, for a better explanation.

http://www.amazon.com/Kitchen-Confidential-Adventures-Culinary-Underbelly/dp/0060934913

Truth be told, any low paying job is going to attract, for what ever reason, the same kinds of people.

It is unfortunate that you want to clump an entire sector of the work force like that. But I guess you may be right.

There is really nothing to define the difference between the Olive Garden "Chef" and the guy that is driving his BMW 6 series home at night.

Anyway, back to the global financial WFO oven meltdown bubble.

I agree with a lot here.  Not all.  Anyone can call themselves a chef....ANYONE.  Thats the first problem.  Remove those who are NOT chefs and the rank's IQ skyrockets.
Unfortunately, chef or not...what Scott123 said is absolutely right.  Outside of hollywood, they are the most egotistical, self destructive, substance abusing humans on this planet....why?  Well, because it is a difficult, nighttime, weekend, holiday, sex mixed, strenuous, art based profession.  And NOW, on top of it all, it IS showbusiness.  Its all ego.  You see it here, on this site also.  Not everyone, but many think that NEO is somehow the hardest, best (not best tasting, but best) pie there is.  ANd you can't bake it unless its a wood oven, then unless its an Italian wood oven, then it became an Italian wood oven brought over straight from italy, using Italian stone and assembled by an italian mason.(and some people actually bought this)....God, it gets endless.  Im sorry and I don't want to hurt anyones feelings, but THIS is exactly WHY this business is so egotistical and destructive.  I know, cause its the ONLY job I know, the only one i've ever done, the only one Ive ever earned a nickle from.  And I've seen it for 30 years.  

Believe me, before the food network, the food industry was tough...long hours, poor pay, lots and lots of temptations....NOW, in many cases, its become INSUFFERABLE.  ANd its BECAUSE of this thought process that somehow what you eat is what your worth.  Go spend ten minutes on EGULLET.    Whew...youll know what I mean.  

And please, dont misunderstand, its not everyone in the food business OR every foodie, but the percentage is unsettling.

Food was meant to make people comfortable, to say "Man, Im happy your here".    Now, it seems that food somehow isn't worth anything unless it makes people UNCOMFORTABLE and the attitude from some place is "Man, Im sure YOURE happy your here".....Bourdain is one of the worse culprits. Please, Tony, go through ONE show, ONE LOUSEY STINKIN SHOW, where you don't mention how much you drink or the drugs you took.....it ain't funny, not even close.  And his first book told no secrets, any COOK, not chef, but COOK could have told that same story.  He's smart, but he is part of this problem.  But, now that cooking is show business and chefs are celebrities, this attitude is here to stay.

Well, sorry about the rant.  This is what this business does to ya.

[gabaghool]

This post is an example of how well a COOK can operate a computer.

[gabaghool]

Culinary Artistry IS a great book.  Really illustrates how much work and desire really goes into making one a chef.  But it really is a illustration of sooooooo few of us in the food industry. 

I guess you got to think of the word CHEF like the word BASEBALL PLAYER.  Albert Pujols is a baseball player.   A Major League Baseball  Player.  Erving Swartz is a baseball player.  Got to single A and is now getting paid in some traveling semi pro league.   MLB players are SO FEW...because so few have the talent and desire to reach that pinnacle.

Same with food.  THose guys that are concerned with todays hot words like sustainability, or where ever to table......they've been given the gift of desire, of talent and yes of luck.  Many,if not all could have been whatever they wanted to be, and some actually WERE involved in other high paying fields.  Shoot, most guys and gals who work the kitchen are not even on the same planet.  No pay, no insurance (and if you want benefits you usually work for a food service company where creativity isn't exactly what is desired)  And, lets face it, there are simply too many commercial kitchens in the usa that need manning to think that each one of them is at least headed by a super chef.

Again, unless you OWN, it can be a miserable, miserable existance.  ANd then, even if you own, its no cakewalk, but at least a restaurant owners problems are similar to any business owners problems, and if you run it correctly, you CAN retire.......WITH money....and with a little luck, your family, friends and health...cause all those are gonna take a serious beatin during the years.

[SinoChef]

Hey gabaghool,

A couple months late, but there are times when I don’t have any internet access, and I usually just use this board for the encyclopedia that it is.

they are the most egotistical, self destructive, substance abusing humans on this planet.

I could add a couple of more adjectives as well. The only thing I really took exception with was “Stupid”.
 
“Stupid?” No, at least not if I recall some of the very good mentors I had while working my way up. Everything else, sure. Some worse than others.  And some are functional adults with stable and comfortable lives.

I still like Bourdain. As far as I can tell he is the only one out there calling this celebrity chef non sense for what it is. Food Network is a 24 hour infomercial designed with the hope that you will buy a cook book, or some other useless kitchen gadget.  These people are not chefs, and what they are doing has nothing to do with the restaurant business.

He did a great couple of No Reservations episodes called “food Porn”. I think you can find them on you tube.

I gave up on this business right around 2000. For most of the reason’s you listed. I distinctly remember reading a menu from a “hot new chef” in my market which had “hand peeled”, and “boiled in artisanal imported French spring water” as a description for his half roasted spring chicken with mash potato and gravy.

............Oh, I’m sorry, It was “Pommes de puree with essence of rosemary infused jus au natural”.

Also remember sitting in my office reading one of the trade rags, with yet another hot new up and comer. Offering his seafood and chocolate tasting menu.  Monk fish and lobster  with coco sauce. Monk fish with coco....

(And also around that time, I remember watching Charlie Trotter cook on PBS. And I suddenly had an epiphany. I was not the greatest cook ever, not even close.)

I blame Food Network for this.  I think at that time, all you had to do was load up a plate with as many different ,ridiculous ,obscure, esoteric  sounding  ingredients you could find. And you would have this new foodie public anxiously awaiting to marvel at your creativity.  There was no thought process behind it. Just spin the wheel of mis en place, and what ever the needle lands on, that is what is going on the plate.

Dinners to nervous to say,” you know, this is really crap”, because they had just read through a  menu with descriptions that would make Hemmingway envious.

There is a thread on here somewhere, that is discussing an operator importing Italian water to make pizza. Is it BS? Of course.

It it really, really good BS? Absolutely!

I had the same thing here a couple years ago. Multimillion dollar pizza cathedral built to satisfy the owners ego. Everything imported from Italy. 2 beautiful rotating WFO in the dining room.  All that, and people shrugged when leaving,  “I think your (mine) pizza is better.”  And we spent about 250$ USD on a used, local made POS oven.

At the end of the day, it’s all marketing.  If your convinced your eating something really special. Something only a few other lucky souls have been able to enjoy. Then your happy.

But  once the gimmick factor has run its course. You need to be able to ask, was the food good. Was the experience good?

What is the fail rate for new restaurants these days? 90% or more?

My “hand peeled” mash potato guy lasted just under 3 years before closing.

[PizzaVera]

and this goes to what I was saying in the other thread about busy restaurants making bad pizza.
sure might be artisan, or a skilled person needed, but most business owners will just throw some kid behind the flame , pay him 5 bucks an hour and let him cook pizza with wood.

people follow the trends,
be it, artisan beer, artisan roasting coffee, sushi, food trucks, take n bake, WFO pizza
neopolitan traditional pizza. etc etc etc
once one person does it and it's a success everyone jumps on the band wagon.
pizza is a survivor and it's here to stay for ever. and I think humans will keep coming up with ways to reinvent it, then go back to the
traditional , then fusion, etc etc.
I saw a  joint selling the sushi pizza the other day.. can you believe that?. cooked pizza then raw fish put on top to finish. LOL

what ever makes money I guess.

my father is a real hardcore old school Italian, if we are in a pizza joint and he sees items on the pie which don't belong on there he get's all crazy.LOL
"who the F%@k puts corn and tuna on a pizza?!!" and they calling this Italian pizza???

I say, "PA, this is America not Italy."

don't get him started on the star bucks coffee either hahahahha

 a bubble? not yet, but there will be one eventually. after we thrash it to death.

[Tscarborough]

A more accurate book than Bordain's is Cooking Dirty by Jason Sheehan.  A Good read.