Author Topic: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?  (Read 3391 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« on: April 12, 2011, 11:49:14 AM »
Is it just me or does there seem to be an explosion of wannabe Biancos importing WFO's from Naples and opening some variety of artisan pizzeria? Given the costs and skill-level to do this right, will enough of them do it right to sustain their business?  And even if they can do it right, will the public pay the higher price in appreciation of their efforts? Is the artisan pizza market already saturated in some markets? Has chain pizza forever imprinted their definition of pizza on the national consciousness?  Will there be a bunch of slightly-used WFO's for sale soon?



Offline forzaroma

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 11:58:08 AM »
I wonder this myself and had a dream to do this for many years now I feel that its overdone now and that most places will ruin this. Also as you said what are people real idea of pizza? Not many Americans can appreciate real wood fire pizza.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 12:03:55 PM »
Has chain pizza forever imprinted their definition of pizza on the national consciousness?


Bill,

I touched upon this subject briefly today at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13545.msg134980.html#msg134980.

Peter

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 12:13:39 PM »
Will there be a bunch of slightly-used WFO's for sale soon?


That would be so cool.
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 12:29:31 PM »
Excellent questions Bill - You would think that these restaurants have done their homework and figured out if price costs for artisan pizza will be sustained in their market. FWIW, I might suggest that this site, pizzamaking.com, may be spurring some of that neapolitan oven craze. With the sheer number of users here, and the deep, deep knowledge base contained within these threads, it is easy to grab a recipe and workflow that you would have had to fly to Naples for just a few years ago - and start a business. Or maybe you would have spent 5 grand on a class. Another member told me a story about that scenario actually happening for a place here in Boston. The person opening the restaurant took a recipe from a famous thread here and used it for his pizza business.

Alot of us are putting time, money, and passion into perfecting products that meet (or even exceed) restaurant quality, both here and abroad. We do it for the fun of it. But when it comes down to it, knowledge is valuable.

John

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 12:39:44 PM »
I wonder this myself and had a dream to do this for many years now I feel that its overdone now and that most places will ruin this. Also as you said what are people real idea of pizza? Not many Americans can appreciate real wood fire pizza.

OTOH, there are people with the commitment to turn the dream into reality. Our friend, pftaylor, is a good example. I can't imagine anything getting in the way of his dream, even if a dozen WFO joints open on the same block as his.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2011, 12:40:06 PM »
Is it just me or does there seem to be an explosion of wannabe Biancos importing WFO's from Naples and opening some variety of artisan pizzeria? Given the costs and skill-level to do this right, will enough of them do it right to sustain their business?  And even if they can do it right, will the public pay the higher price in appreciation of their efforts? Is the artisan pizza market already saturated in some markets? Has chain pizza forever imprinted their definition of pizza on the national consciousness?  Will there be a bunch of slightly-used WFO's for sale soon?

I would say yes and no to almost all of your questions.

I don't see why the current boom in "artisinal" pizza is any different than the earlier (and ongoing) growth in craft made products in other areas, namely beer, bread, coffee and tea come to mind. Some will prosper and continue and many will not survive for any number of reasons.

It's important to remember most of the members of this forum represent a very small percentage of pizza eaters. Keep in mind that beer, which began a resurgence around the time I started homebrewing back in the early nineties, slowed and contracted due to the economic collapse at the turn of the century/millennium and a wave of mergers, and in an ongoing, renewed surge very much alive today, still only accounts for about 10% or so of all beer sales in the USA.

The chains will keep most of their market share and forge opinions with pizza, just as with other items. But more people, while still a small percentage, will also awaken to the wonders of a better made product...the joys of good food made the way it was before mechanization, factory farming, etc turned food into a volume of nearly unrecognizeable ingredients that are an abomination and an affront to the joys of the dinner table. Some of that small number will become passionate enough to make pizza at home. Some will develop the skills and knowledge which will allow them to sniff out the pretenders among the artisinal pizza craze.

There will also be no small amount of pizzerias that will make an excellent product, but be managed poorly and go out of business. Will the concept of things like "true" Neapolitan pizza be bastardized by some of these newer places? Most certainly.....culture bastardization is something Americans are quite good at. Will blowhards like me get frustrated at pretenders whose only concern is capturing the economic uptick of a popular food movement? Assuredly so.

But at the end of the day after the trend dies somewhat and some shops go out of business or change their food concept completely, we'll still be left with better pizza options than before the boom began...and that ain't such a bad thing.

And I think there will always be room for more places that offer an ernestly made product, given that it is run/managed correctly. While I never doubt the overall propensity of people to be gullible, I also don't doubt people's ability to realize the real deal when they run into it.--K


« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 12:47:23 PM by pizzablogger »
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Offline forzaroma

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2011, 12:42:13 PM »
Oh my dream will never die.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 10:36:42 AM »
Why does WFO imply artisan? 

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 10:45:04 AM »
Why does WFO imply artisan? 

What word would you use to describe all these new, upscale joints? The word "artisan" is frequently used to differentiate them from joints with lower operating costs and lower prices.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 10:49:41 AM »
Also, this thread stresses the "skill level to do it right". Doing that with a WFO requires an "artisan" IMO.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2011, 11:15:13 AM »
The Brick Oven Pizza in Austin has been here for decades, and while it is good, it is not artisan, as an example.  Cooking in a WFO requires no more skill than cooking in a gas oven.  Both are a learned skill and both can be done by common, trained employees.  Obviously, artisan pizza can be cooked in either as well.  The oven is an appliance, the food is what is artisan.  I am sure there will be a lot of second-hand ovens if everyone that buys one thinks they can make it on artisan pizza.

Would you consider the New York slice joints to be artisan?


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2011, 11:21:34 AM »
The Brick Oven Pizza in Austin has been here for decades, and while it is good, it is not artisan, as an example.  Cooking in a WFO requires no more skill than cooking in a gas oven.  Both are a learned skill and both can be done by common, trained employees.  Obviously, artisan pizza can be cooked in either as well.  The oven is an appliance, the food is what is artisan.  I am sure there will be a lot of second-hand ovens if everyone that buys one thinks they can make it on artisan pizza.

Would you consider the New York slice joints to be artisan?



I deliberately limited my attention in this thread to all of new places springing up.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2011, 11:24:22 AM »
I see, I am not fortunate enough to know of any new ones in this area.

Offline JConk007

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2011, 11:44:27 AM »
 So off the newer Stephano thread I got this info  looking for the address of Vesta Pizzeria  and I believe this is what you are speaking of Bill. This Vesta looks like a newer place, and I have never heard of it? Great ovens!, but lack of Customer service and resturant experience and a frozen gluten free dough? OMG- Read the reviews  says it in later review as per your mention in this thread, he will not make it . The reviewer sounded a bit pissed.    http://www.yelp.com/biz/vesta-east-rutherford    Maybe just working out the kinks. As mentioned I feel its about final product and being consistent with end result a happy customer who ants to return Here we are up ( best ever) and down  never set foot again) Already?  I am trying to get there this week to review. He  better order some to go menus thats for sure.
John
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 11:52:13 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline jeff v

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2011, 05:37:23 PM »
Great idea for a thread Bill, sorry I got here late.

I still travel pretty regularly for work, and try to make time to try the places you're describing. Most of the time they are a let down, run by someone looking to cash in on the next big thing. One of my concerns is what it does to the general populations idea of what good pizza is...again. Being fed junk while being told it's good could make the genre less appealing in general. I mean some of the places I've paid $20 for a 12" pizza that was supposedly artisan, gourmet, or Neapolitan were just bad while being touted like the best on earth.

I do think people pay more attention to food in general now and I hope they appreciate quality more which should allow truly good places to thrive. Once you find them.

Jeff

Offline plainslicer

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2011, 09:38:27 PM »
My pet peeve is the use of "brick oven." Too often that means a vaguely dome-shaped oven regardless of fuel, deliberately using the association of brick oven with wood-fired oven. I'd much rather a pizzeria use a gas or electric deck oven honestly than a gimmicky "brick oven" that has no superior pizza baking ability. There's a place near my work with a gas-fired Woodstone oven that manages to make pizza smell and look terrible. I do mean awful. It may seem difficult, but this place has it down to a science. Easily the worst-looking, least appetizing pizza I've ever encountered.

Another is marketing gluten-free pizza as magically healthier for people without medical issues related to gluten or wheat. That is an insult to anyone who involuntarily has to eat gluten-free. I know several celiacs (unlikely as that may be), including my girlfriend, and they would love to be able to eat a regular pizza. Given how much sugar, eggs and fats they often add to gluten-free products to make them more palatable, my girlfriend says "twice the calories, half the flavor" is a rule of thumb for them.

It's a terrible diversion for a generally good trend towards healthier eating with better ingredients.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 09:44:54 PM by plainslicer »

Offline SinoChef

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2011, 10:29:39 PM »
Is it just me or does there seem to be an explosion of wannabe Biancos importing WFO's from Naples and opening some variety of artisan pizzeria? Given the costs and skill-level to do this right, will enough of them do it right to sustain their business?  And even if they can do it right, will the public pay the higher price in appreciation of their efforts? Is the artisan pizza market already saturated in some markets? Has chain pizza forever imprinted their definition of pizza on the national consciousness?  Will there be a bunch of slightly-used WFO's for sale soon?




Yes, you will find them next to the shinny imported Italian coffee machines, and the big solid brass micro brew vats at your local used restaurant supply store.

Quote
Keep in mind that beer, which began a resurgence around the time I started homebrewing back in the early nineties, slowed and contracted due to the economic collapse at the turn of the century/millennium and a wave of mergers

I remember going to food shows during the beer craze. I would just add, economic collapse aside. Most of what was being produced just sucked! It was just bad beer, with  some goofy label, and a clever name. And at some point, people just want a beer flavored beer. No jalapeno, or essence of lavender.


But Pizzablogger is right. The pretenders went away, and the winners, won. The bar was raised. And we now have some great micro brews.


Offline chickenparm

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2011, 11:10:03 PM »
I live in a small town,where Pizza is the chains.The people here have never had anything else.

Then,2 private pizza shops opened up,one advertising Brick Oven pizza,another advertising a stone deck.

They both failed and went under.They had no clue how to make pizza in any sense.It was terrible,the chains were a lot better so to speak.

The brick oven pizza place,they had a gas deck oven,where they put bricks down instead of a stone,to cook the pies on.That was their brick oven fired pies.They used screens with premade crusts to cook as well.The crust was pale,no char or browning at all.

Now you can imagine,the people that love chain pizza,are now going to think that the terrible pies they had,the fake brick oven or stone deck pies,are what the rest of the world may be putting out.

I can imagine this is happening with WFO ovens as well.There are too many people cashing in on the wfo,brick oven,gourmet crust slogans or names,putting out fake crap,thats going to alienate so many people that never had real pizza,and think,thats what that stuff is? ewww!
 :-D






-Bill

Offline Meatballs

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Re: WFO Pizza Business Poised for a Bubble?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2011, 12:13:09 PM »
I also see a lot of similarities between craft beer and wood fired/brick/stone/coal oven pizza.  I've been very much into the beer scene for about 17 years and know a lot of professional brewers in the Southeast.  All of them come from the homebrewer ranks and I've known them since they were homebrewers.  Some are excellent world class brewers and some are not, but they all share a passion for great beer and have to fight the money guys to maintain quality.  The Brewpub model from the 1990's failed mostly to the fact that the brewers were held back by the money guys who could not keep the food quality up. 

I now see the same thing happening in the pizza business.  There are the passionate amateurs who aspire to become professionals and the money guys who think they can fake it with image.  I live in a moderately small town in South Alabama that has seen one wood fired pizza place fail and another one teetering.  The current place is suffering because it opened as a partnership with a real pro from Florida and a local business man.  The business man, as usual, forced out the passionate pizzalero and now has high school kids behind the counter, I don't think it will be long for them now.

We need to support the good pizzaleros and shun the fakes, just as I have done with beer for so long.  When my wife and I now travel to beer competitions/festivals I look for good pizza places, hopefully run by former amateurs or long successful professionals.  Support the good places and educate everyone you can about good pizza.

Ron

By the way, can a wood fired oven be dismantled and set back up outdoors if one could buy it for a song at the sheriff's auction?


 



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