Author Topic: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins  (Read 19954 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2011, 03:36:14 PM »
From Bev's Order Page

Peter, that's a 'Best Pizza Anywhere' guarantee, not a 'Decent Pizza' guarantee ;)

Scott,

No one with any marketing sense would use a "decent pizza" guarantee, or a "so-so" pizza, or anything like that. Moreover, the law expects that people will use puffing to sell their wares, and will especially tolerate it if the guarantee is backed up by a promise to return monies paid if the buyer is not entirely satisfied with the product in question, as is the case with Ms. Collins' materials.

Quote
And I don't think 'wading' through this forum is that arduous of a task.

The Secrets from Inside the Pizzeria DVD (and related media) and Ms. Collins are not new to this forum. See, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6039.msg51736.html#msg51736, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7588.msg65105.html#msg65105 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4363.msg36475.html#msg36475. Yet, for all that is available to members on this forum, we have had members who have chosen instead to buy Ms. Collins' media on pizza or even from others like Bubba Kuhn's video on pizza. In one case, one of our members reported at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6039.msg51740/topicseen.html#msg51740 that she purchased Ms. Collins book because she found our forum overwhelming as a newbie because of all the information. A similar sentiment, but with respect to Bubba's video, is expressed by another member in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4419.msg36974/topicseen.html#msg36974. Of course, not all members may feel a need for handholding, but there are some who find that helpful when starting out their home pizza making careers.

Peter



buceriasdon

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2011, 04:00:58 PM »
lol scott123, Yea the site is over the top and seems to be modeled after many others.. I had to laugh as the same "amazing results or your money cheerfully refunded" can be seen on sites or commercials whether it's penile enlargement or Sham-Wow!
Don

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2011, 05:53:00 PM »
Scott, I only know 2 NY guys who are making commercial NY slice pies here in the Austin area, and both are very specific (because you can bet I quizzed them) that they cook on deck ovens with stones at 550-575 for 6 +/- minutes on their 20" pizza. And I have watched them both do it.  Is your 4 minutes a number to shoot for in a home oven?

Edit-and if it makes a difference, both are "re-heaters".

Tom, there are a handful of criteria that rigidly arbitrate NY Style and there are qualitative criteria that, in most New Yorker's opinions, define great NY Style.  A deck oven (in a commercial setting) is one of the mandatory criteria. Conveyors are an aberration and have no place in real pizzerias. Beyond deck ovens,  NY style dough is never punched down. White (bleached or unbleached) flour.  Tempering (allowing dough to warm from the fridge) is also a must. Some of these rigid criteria have ranges.  Above 3% oil- definitely NOT NY style.  More than 2% salt- outside the parameters. More than an 8 minute bake- no.

Now, within that 3-8 bake minute realm, there's definitely qualitative decisions to be made. I wouldn't walk into a pizzeria baking 6 minute pies and tell them that what they're making isn't NY style, but I might say 'hey, have you ever tried a 5 minute bake?'  4-5 minutes isn't going to be as golden brown and delicious as 7-8 (without a lot of added sugar), but authentic NY style pizza isn't GBD.  It's somewhere between the leoparding of Neapolitan and GBD of 7+ pies.

A 4 minute bake produces something with tremendous oven spring and a beautiful crumb, with, depending on the hydration, usually a non crisp, puffy chewy crust.  That's the holy grail of NY style (imo).  Even if someone has a palette that's more geared toward crispy and/or GBD, anyone that loves NY style pizza should have a home oven setup that can pump out a 4 minute pie- to try at least once. A lot of people raised on chain and frozen pizza can't handle the char and moisture of Neapolitan bake times, but I think the majority of Americans, when presented with a 4 minute pie and a 6 minute one, will prefer the 4 minute.  If the group of people being polled are NYers, the numbers go even higher.

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2011, 06:16:12 PM »
Yet, for all that is available to members on this forum, we have had members who have chosen instead to buy Ms. Collins' media on pizza or even from others like Bubba Kuhn's video on pizza.

...and we have members who are still falling prey to Fibrament's marketing claims. And as long as there are members who might be making a decision to purchase these products, I'm going to tell them 'don't waste your money.'

This place is noob nirvana.  There's more handholding here than a kindergarten field trip  ;D It's one big love fest.  Sure, sometimes you get a surge of differing opinions and that can be jarring for beginners, but I still fail to see how a book can hold more hands that what we're doing here, especially a book/video as flawed as this one.

Just to be clear, the quotes that I cherrypicked earlier are just the tip of the issues that I have with Bev's work. A while back, Bev's videos were available for online viewing. Tom Lehmann's big pizza chain thinking/conveyor mentality makes my skin crawl, but these videos from Bev were pure torture. Domino's is a disease- it's everything that's wrong with pizza. Bev isn't helping the home baker recreate Domino's pizza, but the mindset, the ignorance, the disconnect from authenticity permeates everything that she touches. That Domino's stench cannot be washed off.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2011, 06:56:25 PM »
Careful now, I worked at Domino's in college, as well as local joints.


Both of those guys made the spit at char when I brought it up. "Burned!".  I am a little more flexible than that....

scott123

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2011, 07:03:47 PM »
I worked at Domino's in high school...

...for a whole two hours. I watched the orientation and then walked out. As I sat there watching the video, all I could say to myself was "THIS is how corporations defile art. This is how big business chews up and spits out culture."
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 07:07:56 PM by scott123 »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2011, 07:21:31 PM »
My job was actually to refine delivery maps (by hand!) and general preopening operations, but I made a lot of pizzas because I could.  This was early '80s with commissary everything, and conveyor ovens, but we made some good pizzas, for ourselves if not for the customers.

buceriasdon

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2011, 08:27:51 PM »
Or buy this gentleman's book and video and bake the Best New York Pizza ever. Money back if not completly satisfied! No stinking Fibrament here!

http://www.greeneggchef.com/New-York-Pizza.html

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2011, 09:40:01 PM »
Here is another one: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0980034655/?tag=pizzamaking-20

I saw the dough recipe for the NY style pizza at the PMQ Think Tank. A member there estimated that the recipe called for around 6% sugar. Also, the pizza was baked on a pizza screen.

Peter

Offline tapco1

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2011, 10:24:20 AM »
Scott123 –

Just a few comments:

I make Pizza for fun, not for competition and not commercially. I don’t need a 4 minute pizza cooked on the most thermodynamic surface know to man. When entertaining, I like my guests to have fun and join in on the Pizza making experience with a nice glass of wine in their hands. I have never had a guest ask me if I could make a 4 minute pizza like Scott123 on the Pizza making forum.

I grew up in NY City and for 65 years I  love all the NY Style pizza’s you can purchase at places like  Ray’s ( and all the other Ray’s),  Grimaldi’s,  Lombardi’s,  Di Fara’s. If you need to lecture someone on what a NY Style pizza is – please take it somewhere else. When I need to consult with the Pizza Police, the above locations aren’t bad for starters. They all make great Pizza but there are differences in every one of them.  In fact if you asked each one of them they will give you a reason why their Pizza is different than the competition and why their pies are rated the “Best in the World”

My thanks to everyone for their lively "On Topic" comments and book recomendations

RE: FibraMent – it can handle 1400+ degrees with an "EVEN" heat and I can crank my oven up to 700 degrees. I also like to bake breads, pies, you name it, and I find that my Fibrament cooking surface does a great job of “evenly” cooking anything that goes in my oven.

I know you are not a fan of FibraMent but for informational purposes to those who may be interested in a cost effective way to put out a very good baking product, I have attached an article from: Breadtopia

http://www.breadtopia.com/baking-pizza-stones/

Top Reasons Why Bakers Everywhere Use FibraMent baking stones:

The FibraMent line of baking stones were developed by Illinios entrepreneur Mark O’Toole to meet the needs of professional bakers. Prior to FibraMent, bakers options were limited to ceramic and clay products that baked unevenly and cracked easily. FibraMent has become an industry standard for the baking industry and now is also available to home bakers seeking to duplicate the joys of hearth baking in their own kitchens.
•   FibraMent bakes great pizza, breads and bagels every time.
•   FibraMent NEVER needs cleaning. Simply brush excess crumbs off the baking stone.
•   Comes with a ten-year warranty.
•   FibraMent customer support is only a mouse click or phone call away.
•   FibraMent is safety tested and certified by NSF International, the widely recognized and respected independent certification organization for public health and safety.
•   Easy to follow baking instructions are provided.
•   FibraMent stones are designed for gas, electric and convection ovens, and also outdoor barbeque grills.
•   Stones available to fit most oven and outdoor grill sizes
•   FibraMent never needs to be removed from your oven.
•   FibraMent is a minimal long term investment which returns optimal results.

FibraMent Q & A:

1. What is the composition of FibraMent?
FibraMent is made from a proprietary blend of heat resistant and conductive raw materials approved by NSF International for use in baking ovens.

2. What size FibraMent Baking Stone should I buy?
When measuring your home oven, allow approximately a one inch opening on each side of the stone for proper air movement.

3. Can I lay a sheet of aluminum foil over the FibraMent Baking Stone to keep it from staining?
Yes. The aluminum foil will not alter FibraMent’s baking properties. However, all baking stones are porous and will darken over time. Additional benefits of using aluminum foil are: thermal shock will be minimized and excess moisture will be prevented from contacting the stone.

4. Can FibraMent be used in wood burning ovens and outdoor patio grills?
Although FibraMent has a 1500°F continuous use operating temperature limit, it cannot be exposed directly to flame. The flame diverter that comes with our barbecue grill stones must be used.

5. Some bakery publications have recommend baking on quarry tile. How does FibraMent compare to quarry tile?
Quarry tile does not have the heat transfer properties necessary for quality baking. It is not engineered for baking oven temperature applications. Quarry tile becomes brittle after it has been heated and does not provide an even bake.

6. Can FibraMent be placed directly on a heating element in electric ovens?
No. Nothing should be placed on the element. Setting baking stones or pans on the element restricts the heat flow. This gradually decreases the efficiency of the element until it fails.

7. Do you provide FibraMent similar to the HearthKit’s that are available?
Yes, and you do not have to spend that much money. FibraMent is not only used as a baking stone. Our commercial accounts use FibraMent to line their oven ceiling and walls. For home ovens, place one baking stone on the wire rack at the very bottom of your oven. This will be your baking surface. Use a second FibraMent stone as the ceiling by placing on the wire rack above. Adjust the height of the wire rack so it’s immediately over the foods you are baking. Since we have greatly reduced the ceiling height of the oven, and are redirecting the heat back down on the items we are baking, wall inserts are not necessary. Our tests show using this method improves the bake quality.

8. Do thicker stones improve baking performance?
Thermal conductivity or heat transfer is independent of thickness. Baking stones provide direct bottom heat to your food items. Thickness of the stone does not change the heat transfer rate.
For baking stones to work properly the heat must be conducted evenly. Some baking stones conduct heat too quickly while other stones conduct heat too slowly.
FibraMent’s heat transfer rate is 4.63 Btu.in/hr.sqft.°F tested to ASTM Standard C177-95. This is the ideal heat transfer rate. Thicker stones (1″, 1 1/2″ and 2″) are primarily used in commercial ovens where additional strength and recovery times are required.

9. Why don’t you supply a wire serving rack with your pizza stone?
Baking stones should be left in the oven. Food bakes at temperatures over 200°F. FibraMent will stay above 200°F for at least thirty minutes after it’s taken out of a 400°F to 500°F oven. You do not want your food to continue to cook after it is taken out of the oven. Also, you will probably burn your fingers trying to take a slice of pizza off the hot stone.
Serving the pizza will also become a problem. You will not harm FibraMent by cutting your pizza directly on the stone but you will dull your cutting instrument very quickly.

10. Can I leave my baking stone in the oven during the cleaning cycle?
Baking stones are porous and absorb anything that comes in contact with it. It’s best to take the stone out of the oven when it goes through the cleaning cycle. You can leave the stone in the oven if you prevent any foreign residue from dripping on the stone.

11. When I baked my last pizza some sauce and cheese spilled onto the stone. How should I clean it?
Take a dry rag and wipe off as much of the residue as you can. Use a rubber spatula to remove any stubborn spills. Be careful not to damage the surface of the stone.
You can also bake-off the heavy spills. Instead of turning the oven off when you are through baking, turn it up to the highest temperature setting for 60 to 120 minutes. This will charcoalize the residue spilled onto the stone.
Remember baking stones naturally darken and discolor over time with use (stone pictured here is 5 years old). The grease and toppings that drop on the stone actually improve the baking properties. This seals the surface of the stone and minimizes the chance of dough sticking to the surface.

12. Why is it necessary to predry/temper the stone?
Since baking stones are porous they absorb moisture. Moisture turns to steam at 212°F. If the moisture is forced out of the stone too quickly it can develop cracks. This is why a slow, gradual temperature increase is so important.
Even if we predried the stone at the factory it would pick up moisture during shipment to you. To ensure there was a nominal amount of moisture in the stone the predrying process would have to be repeated.

13. When I opened the carton I noticed some chips on the edges. Should I be concerned?
Due to the inherent nature of the raw materials used in FibraMent, the edges may have some small chips. These areas do not affect the baking properties of FibraMent.

14. Some baking stone suppliers state their material absorbs moisture during the baking process. Is this the case with FibraMent?
Baking stones provide even, direct heat from the bottom of the stone. Consistent thermal conductivity ensures that the toppings and dough finish baking at the same time.
Baking stones do NOT draw moisture out of the dough. Rather, good quality baking stones bake through the dough at a even pace. It’s hard to imagine a stone heated up to 600°F can absorb moisture. Moisture evaporates very quickly at those temperatures.


Tom



Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2011, 11:01:01 AM »
Tom Lehmann's big pizza chain thinking/conveyor mentality makes my skin crawl,

Scott,

I have never associated Tom Lehmann in my thinking with the big chains. Actually, Tom Lehmann is a friend of the small mom and pop independent pizza operator. He may consult for the chains although I don't ever recall his discussing that anyplace where he writes. So, I tend to doubt that he does consulting work for them. In reality, they don't even need him. They have large staffs of research people and food scientists. Tom is sometimes asked for advice by people who want to copy or mimic a big chain dough, but he usually doesn't come close to what I would consider a good clone, just based on what I know of the chains' products. Where the independents and chains have the most commonality is in the use of conveyor ovens. Most of the oven switches by independents is from deck ovens to conveyor ovens, not the other way around, and the trend toward conveyor ovens is accelerating. All of the big four chains use them, but even smaller chains that once used deck ovens have largely switched over to conveyor ovens, such as Buddy's, Jet's, Home Run Inn, Round Table and even some Chicago area deep-dish operators.

I will concede that Tom will sometimes promote the use of the PizzaTools hearth and cloud type disks for making the NY style in a conveyor oven, for which such disks were designed, but that is usually in response to requests from operators for advice in doing so. And Tom will usually mention that there are some models of conveyor ovens that are best suited for use with the hearth/cloud type disks, mainly the so-called fast bake ovens.

Peter

Offline tapco1

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2011, 11:48:26 AM »
Peter

I prefer the "coal brick oven" places in NYC - like Grimaldi's, Patsy's, Lombardi's.

Conveyor ovens?? where did that come from. You should know better Peter !!

Tom



 

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2011, 12:22:27 PM »

•   FibraMent bakes great pizza, breads and bagels every time.


I've been using a Fibrament stone in my kitchen oven for several years with very good results baking bread. But this morning I tried something for the first time. Instead of the Fibrament stone, I baked Tartine loaves on a layer of 1.5" refractory tiles. These are designed for good heat conduction and the difference in oven spring was dramatic. My Tartine loaves are usually flat on the bottom, but these were completely rounded at the edges, very little of the bottom in contact with the tiles. Hard to know exactly because Tartine loaves are too wet to scale, but I'm guessing a 25% increase in volume compared to baking on the Fibrament.

Lots more testing to do, but I'm leaning towards the position that there are better (and less expensive) solutions than Fibrament.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2011, 11:34:15 AM »
John, you make some of the best looking Neapolitan pizzas this forum has to offer.  I would probably be the one who'd be intimidated ;)

Now, if you started going around telling people that you're expert on NY Style pizza and have a recipe that guarantees the 'Best Pizza Anywhere' using a fibrament stone and a screen, then not only would I recommend not having me over for pizza, but I'd highly recommend avoiding me completely- because you and I would have a big problem.

Scott, I'd love to have the opportunity to cook a pie for you someday. I'm not going to claim to be an expert in anything, nonetheless I will make you a pretty darn good pie (probably not the "best pizza anywhere” though I will claim that if it will work you up enough to come to Texas  ;D), and I will make with KAAP and cook it on a Fibrament stone.  :-D

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Draven782

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2011, 12:41:07 PM »
Hey Tom
 
Just wanted to let you know your dvd is on the way.  I would expect it there by Saturday.   ;D


Offline communist

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2011, 09:50:44 AM »
I bought a Fibrament stone last year hoping for a better crust on my New York Pies.  I dropped 80 or more bucks with shipping, and experienced rude customer service. I was optimistic when I got the stone, but was very dissapointed with the results. A flat, pale crust at 550.  Frustrated, I resorted to oven tricks, baking at 650 on my cheap Pizza Gourmet 20 year old firebrick stone. The oven spring was magical, and the family gathered around the oven, mesmerized by the puff and heat.  The pie was great, with open, airy crumb and near char on the crust.  The smoke alarms and worried looks on my wife's face steered me away from oven tricks.  Half inch steel at 530 gives me the 4 minutes pie my family loves.  No tricks, no alarms.  40 bucks for the steel.  Pizza heaven. This forum is a treasure trove.  I have seen no reference in print that approaches the level of expertise and support this forum offers.  Scott 123 brought me where I wanted to go.  I am a believer!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2011, 10:40:16 AM »
Scott 123 brought me where I wanted to go.  I am a believer!

When it comes to coaxing the most out of a home oven, this place is the cutting edge with Scott123 leading the charge.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2011, 11:14:08 AM »
I'm pretty sure that if I played around with a fibrament stone, I could make some pretty good pizza with it.  But some materials will only get you so far and some materials are better than others.   The folks in this forum spend massive amounts of time, energy, and effort to find out the differences between ingredients, materials, techniques, ovens, what have you.  When it comes to stones and baking matierials,  Scott123 IS the forum expert.  Not some guy that has an axe to grind with Fibrament specifically.     

Take the advice if you are ready for it.  If you are happy with what you are making, then that's all that matters.  But if you care to know the differences and  and improve your game then take the FREE advice that is given.  Do your own experiments and I'm pretty sure you will come to the same conclusion, that Scott knows his stuff.

Scott can be passionate/opinionated at times but who here isn't?  I appreciate that about him...immensely.  We don't have to agree on everything, but there is one thing I know.  I have learned a  ton from Scott and continue to do so.

As a matter of fact, I don't happen to agree with a lot of the forum experts on a lot of things, but I can always learn something from them to make my pizza better.

Chau

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2011, 11:34:13 AM »
As a matter of fact, I don't happen to agree with a lot of the forum experts on a lot of things...

Chau,

I am curious. Without naming names or anything like that, can you give a few examples? 

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2011, 11:56:55 AM »
Chau,

I am curious. Without naming names or anything like that, can you give a few examples?  

Peter

Just some general ideas I've read in old posts.  I haven't heard too many lately though.  

-NP (styled) pizzas can't be made in the home oven.
-00 ONLY works at high temps and a sub 2 minute bake.
-caputo 00 flour is the best flour for making pizza.
-VPN method is the only way for making true NP pies
-spiral mixers and wfos are required to make great pizza.  (I don't think I've heard anyone come out and say this but I get the feeling this is the general sentiment).  
-HG flour makes chewy products

It's not that I completely disagree and I can definitely see where and how some ideas get propagated.  I just don't completely agree either.   My point was really more or less, that we can all learn from eachother even if we don't agree on everything.  

Chau



 

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