Author Topic: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins  (Read 22847 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3765
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2011, 09:55:15 PM »
I pay 19 cents more per 5# bag for KA here than I would for house brand.  To be honest, the house brand is just as good if not better than the KA, and it is almost certainly fresher.


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7155
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2011, 08:39:28 AM »
Craig, I do not own or have had any experience with Fibrament.  As such, I have no opinions or any issues with Fibrament myself.   Personally, if I had one I would make the most of it.  I'm not surprised to hear that you use one with great results.  I think your pies look great and the fact that you can do it with AP flour speak even more to your skills.  Not that AP flour is inferior to caputo 00, but that is the general assumption when it comes to NP pies.  Personally, I get a kick out proving the experts wrong or doing things with "lesser" ingredients or not having the best of equipment.  I like Don's take that he posted on another thread.  Make due with what you have. 

Also just b/c a certain stone material is less thermally conductive, doesn't necessarily equate to poorer results.  We know that oven spring is dependant on many other factors, and that the conductivity of the stone is just one of those.   Depending on how it is used, how the dough is made, how the dough is baked also makes a difference.   And same for the flours.  Okay so some flours are easier to work with or some ppl have preferences to some flours over others.  I'd rather have mediocre (if it is indeed so) than none at all. 

Chau

Offline tjkoko

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 74
  • Location: Deep deep South where we run 'dawgs and hawgs'
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2011, 11:27:29 AM »
I must chime in here regarding  a slow proof/rise.  With 10 years experience in home bread baking, the bread turns out slightly tastier with a slow rise and proof.  In that fashion, the enzymes have more time to produce sugars and other flavors that contribute to the bread's overall flavor.  As to pizza dough, my journey is just beginning.

In making my first pizza on my new Fibrament, I got a great spring with big holes in the crust. IMHO what can contribute to a good spring is surface tension of the dough combined with perhaps a higher hydration.  Dunno' if the same applies to pizza dough.

Cr@p, I hope I didn't make a mistake by purchasing a Fibrament (thanks, guys!) after my cordierite stone from Williams Sonoma (10 years of use) finally gave up the ghost.  But I'll find out after baking a loaf of bread on it for the first time next week.
Home bread baker for 10 years.

Offline tjkoko

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 74
  • Location: Deep deep South where we run 'dawgs and hawgs'
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2011, 11:35:23 AM »
Oh, and also, I notice a difference in my crumb's quality when switching from KA AP flour to KA Organic AP flour.  The former clocks in at 11.7% protein and the latter 11.5%, respectively.  And if I consumed flour quickly enough, I'd purchase 50# bags of in from Weisenberger Mills of Kentucky.  But be forewarned that with Weisenberger's flours, you'll need to add diastatic malt (most commercial flours have this already added to them) to get a rise that proceeds at a standard - not slow - rate.
Home bread baker for 10 years.

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3093
  • Age: 44
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2011, 12:15:27 PM »
Just some general ideas I've read in old posts.  I haven't heard too many lately though.  

-NP (styled) pizzas can't be made in the home oven.
-00 ONLY works at high temps and a sub 2 minute bake.
-caputo 00 flour is the best flour for making pizza.
-VPN method is the only way for making true NP pies
-spiral mixers and wfos are required to make great pizza.  (I don't think I've heard anyone come out and say this but I get the feeling this is the general sentiment).  
-HG flour makes chewy products

It's not that I completely disagree and I can definitely see where and how some ideas get propagated.  I just don't completely agree either.   My point was really more or less, that we can all learn from eachother even if we don't agree on everything.  

Chau



Hey, I definitely don't consider myself an expert, just a pizza obsessed experimenter like all of us, but I just read this and realized that some of the basis for these comments might be coming from stuff I have posted.   I just wanted to clarify the two that might have come from me.  

00 ONLY works at high temps and a sub 2 minute bake.
 I just did a search to make sure I never said this, and I didn't (lucky!).   I do think that caputo pizzeria flour works best at under 2 min, and I have been quite vocal about that (would never use the "only" word, though).  It stemmed from years of being on this forum seeing newcomers to the forum paying crazy shipping prices thinking they were going to make a pizza like BillSFNM or Marco in their home oven.   If I make pizzas above 2 min with caputo the dough doesn't really brown as much as I would like, and if I do take it to the point where it looks right to me (some char) it tends to get tough.  

-HG flour makes chewy products
 I have never been a huge fan of high gluten flour because it sits heavy on the stomach (taught by marco and I do notice it!) and because unbromated high gluten flour can tend to toughen more than a bread or all purpose flour.    Its subtle, but I do notice that it makes the pizza a bit tougher, especially after it has been sitting.    Right out of the oven its not that noticeable.   Bromate counteracts this toughness, so I have no problem with bromated high gluten flours.   Chau, you have never noticed the extra toughness after cooling when comparing say, KASL and KAAP?  for me KAAP is more tender and light in comparson.  

« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 12:17:06 PM by scott r »

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2011, 12:54:23 PM »
I just did a search to make sure I never said this, and I didn't (lucky!).   I do think that caputo pizzeria flour works best at under 2 min, and I have been quite vocal about that (would never use the "only" word, though).  It stemmed from years of being on this forum seeing newcomers to the forum paying crazy shipping prices thinking they were going to make a pizza like BillSFNM or Marco in their home oven.

I don't think I've said this either, but I have thought it :)  Protein quantities play a small role but, to me, it all boils down to malt/sugar.  Malted flours burn in fast bakes and unmalted flours don't brown correctly in long bakes. With enough work, I'm sure one could keep a malted flour from burning at a high temp, but why not make life easier and use the right tool for the job?

Quote
I have never been a huge fan of high gluten flour because it sits heavy on the stomach (taught by marco and I do notice it!)

When I joined this forum I had already figured quite a lot out about pizza, but I was entirely clueless about digestibility.  Everything I know about digestibility I learned here.

HG flour can sit heavy, but that's only with shorter fermentation times. I look at DiFara's notoriously underfermented crust and my stomach hurts  ;D  As you extend the fermentation, the digestibility improves exponentially.  The trick is to ferment the dough long enough so that the digestibility is high, but not so long that the protein is damaged and can not provide enough support for good oven spring.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2011, 01:40:26 PM »
The trick is to ferment the dough long enough so that the digestibility is high, but not so long that the protein is damaged and can not provide enough support for good oven spring.

Amen. As well, most HG flours are made with hard spring wheat, which is not as strong as winter wheat. The HG needs more attention in the hydration and mixing stages. If you want a super chewy crust, HG is the way to go - but that is not to say you can't make some amazing light and airy doughs with it. Chau gets excellent results in that area. It just takes a lot more time and energy.

John
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 01:43:59 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7155
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2011, 09:59:21 PM »
Scott & Scott, when I rattled that list off the top of my head, I didn't have any specific people in mind.  That was just some stuff I remembered reading here and there.   Also I may have embelished some of those a bit.  

I know that it is a common belief that 00 won't work at lower temps or should I say won't work as well.  Right now I have excellent results at lower temps (3-4m bake times) using a blend of 75/25 00/hg but let's see what I get at higher temps.  Maybe it will be even better.   This is why I was being ambiguous and saying that I don't agree but don't necessarily disagree either.  

As far as digestibility and HG flour goes, it's just as others mentioned.  Depends on length of fermentation and extent of fermentation.  The shortest time that I have been able to make digestible pies using HG flour is around 12 hours fermentation at room temps.  Of course a 24 hour or overnight cold fermentation will help digestibility with any flour.  

I recently ate at Nello's in Az.  Their deep dish pie is made with HG flour I was told.  I asked after eating an exceedingly soft and tender crumb.  It was actually lighter than Bianco's crumb, so I was surprise that it was HG flour.  But it sat like a ton bricks in my gut all night.  I wasn't even hungry for breakfast the next morning.   I posted about this in the Nello's Restaurant review thread.

Bianco's crumb is also exceedingly tender and he told me he uses BF with a bit of HG flour mixed in.  So HG products don't have to be chewy at all if done properly (meaning the gluten hasn't been overworked).

John my experience with HG flour has just been the opposite.  I have experimented with it a lot over the past year and a half and I find it consistenty easiest to work with.  It develops gluten just by sitting and requires very little effort in kneading.  It gives a consistent puffy aerated rim everytime.  It takes me less time and effort to work with compared to 00.  And I'm pretty sure it's not b/c I have had more practice or am more familiar with it.  

Lower protein flours are exceedingly more difficult to build the proper amount of gluten, especially if it is a lower protein flour that is also highly hydrated.  Talk about making it hard on yourself.   BUT I keep at it b/c when done right it provides the best results for me so far.   And what I mean by best is a soft light crumb with still a bit of a crispy rim.   A balance between the 2 universes.  

Here's a shoot out between high hydration HG and 00 blended doughs.  At their very best, the 00 was better.

Reply #21 (One of the best pies I've eaten.  75% 00 and baked around 3min plus).
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html

I can make soft crumbs with soft rims any day with any flour.That is easy to do and takes less effort on my part.  

Here are a few examples of exceedingly light and airy crumbs using a HG flour that were not chewy.   When the hydration is jacked up high on HG flours, the crumb can be exceedingly soft and moist IF you haven't overwork the gluten.  Easier to do than a lower protein flour b/c the extra gluten aids in tenting up the gas bubbles to produce very airy crumbs.  It's actually much harder to make an open airy moist crumb structure with a lower protein flour like caputo pizzeria flour.   You run the risk of overmixing it trying to develop the gluten.  Finding that happy balance between open, airy, moist crumb with a light crispy shell is a lot harder for me with 00 than HG flours.  

Reply #2
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.0.html

Reply #80  A high hydration 75/25 HG/00 dough
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.80.html

Also another bit of misinformation is that HG requires more kneading or kneading with a machine, etc.  I disagree with this and find just the opposite to be true.

But these are just my personal experiences and I reserve the right to be totally wrong or change my mind as I learn more.  ;D

Chau
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 09:09:26 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2011, 07:17:15 AM »

John my experience with HG flour has just been the opposite.  I have experimented with it a lot over the past year and a half and I find it consistenty easiest to work with.  It develops gluten just by sitting and requires very little effort in kneading.  It gives a consistent puffy aerated rim everytime.  It takes me less time and effort to work with compared to 00.  And I'm pretty sure it's not b/c I have had more practice or am more familiar with it.

Chau - What HG flour are you using? Is it bromated?

I probably should not be commenting on HG anyway, as I only have a limited amount of experience with it. The ones I have used were hard spring wheat and organic, and I found that they developed gluten only after extended mixing. But that could be the flour, or it could be my technique. Also I have never used HG flour without at least 3% oil.

The Caputo 00, for me, develops to the improved stage after 2 stretch and fold sessions - no mixer involved. It may be the altitude difference, or other factors. Not sure though.

I will say though, Chau, that I defer to your experience here. Thanks for the detailed post, lots of great info in there.

John
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 07:25:54 AM by dellavecchia »


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7155
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2011, 07:47:24 AM »
John, I mainly use Sam's Club HG bleach and bromated flour, but have used All Trumps (bromated) as well as the HG flour from Sunflower Market (which I believe is non bromated).

Because the common misconception/assumption that HG flour requires more kneading or kneading by machine, if the hydration isn't high enough and it is machine kneaded, it can be fairly easy to overknead and overwork the gluten thus getting an overly chewy product.  HG flours by nature will technically give more chew, but it doesn't have to be much more.

Here's a unscientifc test to do to compare gluten development in HG flours versus a lower protein flour like AP or caputo 00.  Mix up by hand a mixture of flour and water only so that both samples have a similar consistency.  For me, I use a hydration of 66% 00, 68% AP, and 72% HG.   Only use 00 or AP against HG.  You may have to lower your hydration levels to match your climate.  I live in the desert so my hydration levels will seem too high.  For sea level, I would lower those numbers by about 4% (this is just a guestimate).

Now mix the flour and water by hand only until you get an fairly even mixture.  Should be around or under 1min.   I would use around a 400gm sample for ease of kneading.  Allow both mixtures to autolyse for 30m or so and then hand knead and note how long it takes for the dough to have the strength to retain it's ball shape or come together.  At 1 minute intervals, you can pull on the dough to assess for strength or lack of it.  Don't forget to note the time and compare.   As a separate test, you can also hand knead to window pane.  The HG should window pane much sooner.

Chau
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 08:05:35 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2011, 07:53:29 AM »
John, I mainly use Sam's Club HG bleach and bromated flour, but have used All Trumps (bromated) as well as the HG flour from Sunflower Market (which I believe is non bromated).

Chau - Does that Sam's Club flour bag note what the protein level is, and what type of wheat is used? I wonder if it is winter wheat?

John

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7155
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2011, 09:07:37 AM »
I have to say that I haven't had time to study the different types of wheat and their properties.  I understand very little of the science behind flours and the ingredients that make them up.  You could be right, in that bromates or other additives may have a large role in how each flour performs.   I am more or less just experimenting with what is available and reporting my findings. 

The label on the SC HG flour says 4gm of protein per 30gm serving giving a rough estimated protein level of 13.3%   Scott123 and I have discuss the possible protein content of this flour before.  There is not much info to be found on the net.  Scott thinks it's closer to 13% and to me it acts closer to a 14%.  I don't know the numbers for AT's HG bromated flour but that seems to absorb just a bit more water than this stuff. 

The label also says it's bleached wheat flour and doesn't specify if it is winter or spring wheat.

Anyways, sorry to derail this thread.

Chau

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2011, 09:11:09 AM »
Chau,

I believe in the case of King Arthur, the notion of not using hand kneading to make dough using its Sir Lancelot (KASL) high-gluten flour came from King Arthur itself where, as I noted way back in 2004, at Reply 68 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674, King Arthur said in its catalogue that the KASL should "be kneaded by a mixer, processor, or bread machine, to fully develop its gluten." I'm sure that for a while I perpetuated this notion in some of my posts directed to working with high-gluten flour. However, as I later noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4282.msg35764.html#msg35764, and in several other posts as well, I had come to the conclusion that King Arthur's admonition against hand kneading high-gluten doughs was perhaps intended to apply more to bread dough, which requires more complete gluten development, than to pizza dough, which doesn't require the same degree of gluten development. From that point forward, I fairly regularly posted on how I would hand knead high-gluten doughs. For the record, King Arthur no longer advises against hand kneading doughs using its KASL flour. Somewhere along the way, it dropped the admonition from its catalogues.

Peter

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2011, 10:04:38 AM »
Peter - One of the premises put forth by Calvel, and to some extent Suas, is that protein quality is just as important, if not more so, than protein quantity. In fact, Suas has much of a chapter dedicated to the process of test baking to determine the performance characteristics of a flour, as protein numbers alone may not give you the full picture. The differences in protein quality between north american spring wheat and winter wheat are quite stark when it comes to performance it seems. That may be why KA was directing people to use mechanical mixing for KASL - at the time it may have been high in spring wheat, or the wheat source itself had protein of a lesser quality.

This all falls right in line with the mixing test procedure Chau proposed - although the results may be varied unless the exact same flours are used. But the test will give you a starting picture of what a flour might do in regards to gluten development. It may also highlight the differences in HG flour.

Here is a very interesting, but detailed, article on protein quality that I found that sums up what the 2 books I mentioned above are talking about, and goes directly to Chau's test:

Link to article

Chau - I will try your test procedure with the flours I have, and post results. I do have access to Sam's Club, but I just choose not to consume bromate.

John
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 03:03:43 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7155
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2011, 10:11:07 AM »
Great info guys.  John, I recently bought the Saus book.  I'll have to sit down and do some more reading to learn the differences between wheat types and their quality.   Looking forward to your results.   

Offline tjkoko

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 74
  • Location: Deep deep South where we run 'dawgs and hawgs'
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2011, 10:28:25 AM »
@Jackie Tran:  Prepare yourself for information overload!!!!!!!!!   ;^D
Home bread baker for 10 years.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2011, 10:44:37 AM »
John,

That is a great article. Thanks for posting the link.

The idea of protein quality has come up from time to time on the forum. I recall that Marco (pizzanapoletana) brought up this point on at least one occasion. I did a search and found one of his posts on the subject, at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25311.html#msg25311. Marco also talked about gluten quality at Reply 41 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4114.msg34999/topicseen.html#msg34999.

Peter


buceriasdon

  • Guest
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2011, 10:49:24 AM »
I have long maintained exactly what has been discussed in the last posts on the subject of protein quality as opposed to quantity concerning the over the counter Mexican made flours I have available to me. Though Mexico millers import wheat from the North the price of the flour indicates, at least to me, they are not importing premium wheat. In side by side comparisons to say GM All Purpose(when I find it) and Mexican flour the milled in USA flour has proved superior in every way. Everyone, be thankful for what you have.
Happy Easter greetings to everyone on the forum.
Don

Offline tjkoko

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 74
  • Location: Deep deep South where we run 'dawgs and hawgs'
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2011, 11:06:39 AM »
I just spoke with Weisenberger Mills.  The representative stated that their AP flour is approx 8% protein (most commercial flours at this protein level are labeled as pastry or cake flour)

Their bread flour clocks in at approx 12.7% protein.

Dough conditioner is not recommended for use in bread doughs seeing as how they're allowed longer proofing times to reduce elasticity and improve extensibility.

Dough conditioner is recommended for quick doughs like pizza doughs.  Its use allows the pizza dough, after a short proof, to be stretched without tearing and without springing back into a smaller disk.

What an informational adventure.  And I've used W's bread flour (not the AP flour) for bread only with satisfactory results.

Best,
-T
Home bread baker for 10 years.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning

Offline gabaghool

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: GLASTONBURY, CT
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2011, 04:14:24 PM »
A couple of cents here from someone with no where near the knowledge, just a bunch of hands on.

Though Chau is one poster I try and read everything written, I just don't understand the statement that long cold ferm is unnecessary and that a warm quick ferm is just as good....I hope I didn't misunderstand it.

In 10 years of making pizza commercially, at least in the northeast....I know of NO high ranked pizza place that DOESN'T cold ferm.  Now, maybe because of the way we all mix the flour we NEED a long cold ferm, I don't know.  But, trust me, you make dough, short warm ferm and then make a pizza and bake it........horrendous.   Huge bubbles, burn easily, no taste, no open crumb, not where as crispy, chewy....it basically tastes like a dominoes crust.   Again, if Chau says a short warm ferm can make I good pizza, I would believe him.......its just that none of us can. (And I know DiFaras does this........just can't understand how)

ALso, I've worked with both bread type fllour (Seal of Minnesota) and Hi Gluten (All trumps) and the SOM will give a crust that is not as crisp, a bit more tender, nowhere near the rise, but much better the next day.  When I worked with Hi Gluten (a NY style place) I admit the pie crust looked nicer, and fresh out of the oven was probably a bit better, in my opinion, but delivered, or eaten cold the next day....its A TON chewier....which some may like and some may not....but its definitely the tougher of the two.

And lastly, the ONLY way I have ever gotten the bread to bake with the big open shiny crumb and the tiny blisters on the crust that crack when I take it out of the oven is to cold ferment it overnight.  Im not a baker, and I've seen bread baked with fairly nice open crumb using a short warm fermentation and no preferment....I just don't know how its done.

I guess Im shocked that a long cold ferment isn't accepted by 100%, thats all.

Thanks.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2011, 06:05:37 PM »
Cold fermentation is a way to extend fermentation. It is not an essential part of making a dough that tastes good or has a good texture - it is simply one of the processes available. In a commercial operation, you need consistency and refrigeration provides a steady temperature, which in turn produces a specific product based on the yeast you are using. But if you understand the dough process, you may actually get a better product using room temperature fermentation, as the yeast do the job instead of bacteria (this is solely my opinion, though). You just need to have the right flour, the right mixing strategy, and the correct amount of yeast for the ambient room temperature you are fermenting in (or producing artificially).

John

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7155
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2011, 06:54:07 PM »
Nick, I too have no where near the book knowledge of some of our senior members, but I as well have some hands on from the tests I've done.  TBH, I'm constantly learning new stuff, so you'll have to to take some of my older posts with a grain of salt.  Some of it is good info and some as good as I knew at the time.  

For a good while, I was never able to make good pizza with cold fermented dough as I found that my particularly dry environment lead to a more dry dough and a slightly tougher crumb and I was overdeveloping the dough.  On the other hand I was always able to make a good same day dough, so it lead me to concluded that I favored a same day emergency dough.   Since that time I have learned a few tricks to combat the dryness and toughness, decrease my kneading times and the way I knead, and now can make a good cold fermented dough.

2 of my favorite formulas for my preferred crust is either a 2 day cold ferment or a 24 hour Room temp ferment dough.  And I can  tell you it makes nearly an identical crust and crumb.  This finding lead me to the conclusion that when using a commercial yeast (IDY,ADY, and even CY), the length of fermentation is more important than the temperature of fermentation.   So I would say that a cold fermented dough is just as good as a LONG room fermented dough, if using commercial yeast.  

You should know that not all room temp fermented dough has to be an emergency dough made in 4 hours.   A dough that is room temp fermented for 24 hours will yield a different product than a 4 hour room temp fermented dough, even though both are technically SAME DAY doughs.  A room temperature fermented dough can be 24, 36, or even 48 hours.  And while it is not a cold fermented dough, it can make just the same quality of dough as a cold fermented dough.   IMO, the only difference between the 2 is the temperature.  In both scenarios, you are allowing for a lengthy fermentation period which allow for enzymes to help break down the dough, which gives the dough an improved taste, texture, and digestibility.  And the first 2 are argueable and the 3rd not.

From my limited experience in  baking bread and pizza, the tiny blisters are not exclusively cause by cold fermentation.  But rather a product of the relative strength of the dough, the extent of fermentation, the relative (high) surface tension on the skin of the dough, and to a degree relatively high heat.  When the dough is well kneaded and the gluten is well developed, it provides sufficient strength and structure to support and trap air and Co2, to tent up the air sort of speak.  Then surface tension during balling is built onto the surface of the dough forcing the air bubbles closer to the surface, followed by a good degree of fermentation.   Lastly the instant hot/high heat causes the final expansion of those air pockets, creating blisters.  It's been sometime now, but from my recollection, I have been able to get those blisters in a same day dough without cold fermentation.  Again, it is likely more about the strength of the dough, surface tension, degree of fermentation, and bake temp that causes blistering.  

And yes, HG in comparison to BF, if done right is SLIGHTLY chewier, heavier, cools a bit tougher, BUT it doesn't have to be a ton more respectively.  Despite what any expert tells you about HG flour, it is an absolute myth that HG flours make really tough and chewy products, and that it requires a mixer or more kneading to develop the gluten.  Absolutely 100% bogus.  It can be easily hand kneaded in a matter of a few minutes and can make a wonderfully soft and tender crumb, if you have the hydration high enough.  

But don't take my word for it.  Anyone can see this for themselves.  Do a test between AP flour and HG flour to see the difference.  Make a similar feeling dough, and you'll have to obviously adjust your hydration up for the HG dough.  Now hand knead both for 2 minutes and test the strength by attempting the windowpane technique.   Continue kneading for another 2 minutes and re-test.  Now allow the dough to sit for 30m, retest for window paning, then again at the one hour mark.  You will see a difference in dough strength at each phase and it will become obvious how protein content correlates to hydration levels, gluten developement, ease or difficulty in achieving gluten development (window paning), etc.  

Again, this has just been my limited experience and YMMV.

Cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 06:59:49 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline gabaghool

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: GLASTONBURY, CT
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2011, 07:51:17 PM »
Thanks guys for the feedback.

Dell- but what about the flavor of the dough?  Isn't this the reason for preferments??  Crumb appearance, holes, and textures are one thing....flavor another.  Im NOT saying your are wrong, these are simply questions I ask so I can UNDERSTAND what I am doing.  Its amazing how little you know when you simply DO what you have been taught to do....without ever getting any info as to WHY....

Chau
Its always good to hear from you.  I guess this has to do with another post of mine.  Why some places I worked at do a 12 hour room temp ferm and then an overnight cold ferm and then a portion and balled FURTHER ferm......I guess.

Personally, with the bread part of my post.  I THINK those tiny blisters are a result of the moisture the dough picks up from being refrigerated.   When I take a sheetpan of doughs out of the walkin, they are covered in moisture.  So I think it kinda acts like shooting steam into a bread oven would......get what I mean??

But, thanks again for spending your valuable time trying teach teach this donkey something.....Im learning though, slowly but surely.......

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2011, 06:09:15 AM »
Dell- but what about the flavor of the dough?  Isn't this the reason for preferments??  Crumb appearance, holes, and textures are one thing....flavor another.  Im NOT saying your are wrong, these are simply questions I ask so I can UNDERSTAND what I am doing.  Its amazing how little you know when you simply DO what you have been taught to do....without ever getting any info as to WHY....

Yes, you are correct in that using a pre fermented stage you gain flavor with a "short" dough. That can be a poolish in the case of commercial yeast, or a levain/starter for natural yeast. Brian Spangler's dough is an example of a same day dough that uses a poolish for excellent flavor results:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg124161.html#msg124161

John

PS. Great post Chau.


 

pizzapan