Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins

[dellavecchia]

John, I mainly use Sam's Club HG bleach and bromated flour, but have used All Trumps (bromated) as well as the HG flour from Sunflower Market (which I believe is non bromated).

Chau - Does that Sam's Club flour bag note what the protein level is, and what type of wheat is used? I wonder if it is winter wheat?

John

[Jackie Tran]

I have to say that I haven't had time to study the different types of wheat and their properties.  I understand very little of the science behind flours and the ingredients that make them up.  You could be right, in that bromates or other additives may have a large role in how each flour performs.   I am more or less just experimenting with what is available and reporting my findings. 

The label on the SC HG flour says 4gm of protein per 30gm serving giving a rough estimated protein level of 13.3%   Scott123 and I have discuss the possible protein content of this flour before.  There is not much info to be found on the net.  Scott thinks it's closer to 13% and to me it acts closer to a 14%.  I don't know the numbers for AT's HG bromated flour but that seems to absorb just a bit more water than this stuff. 

The label also says it's bleached wheat flour and doesn't specify if it is winter or spring wheat.

Anyways, sorry to derail this thread.

Chau

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

I believe in the case of King Arthur, the notion of not using hand kneading to make dough using its Sir Lancelot (KASL) high-gluten flour came from King Arthur itself where, as I noted way back in 2004, at Reply 68 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674, King Arthur said in its catalogue that the KASL should "be kneaded by a mixer, processor, or bread machine, to fully develop its gluten." I'm sure that for a while I perpetuated this notion in some of my posts directed to working with high-gluten flour. However, as I later noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4282.msg35764.html#msg35764, and in several other posts as well, I had come to the conclusion that King Arthur's admonition against hand kneading high-gluten doughs was perhaps intended to apply more to bread dough, which requires more complete gluten development, than to pizza dough, which doesn't require the same degree of gluten development. From that point forward, I fairly regularly posted on how I would hand knead high-gluten doughs. For the record, King Arthur no longer advises against hand kneading doughs using its KASL flour. Somewhere along the way, it dropped the admonition from its catalogues.

Peter

[dellavecchia]

Peter - One of the premises put forth by Calvel, and to some extent Suas, is that protein quality is just as important, if not more so, than protein quantity. In fact, Suas has much of a chapter dedicated to the process of test baking to determine the performance characteristics of a flour, as protein numbers alone may not give you the full picture. The differences in protein quality between north american spring wheat and winter wheat are quite stark when it comes to performance it seems. That may be why KA was directing people to use mechanical mixing for KASL - at the time it may have been high in spring wheat, or the wheat source itself had protein of a lesser quality.

This all falls right in line with the mixing test procedure Chau proposed - although the results may be varied unless the exact same flours are used. But the test will give you a starting picture of what a flour might do in regards to gluten development. It may also highlight the differences in HG flour.

Here is a very interesting, but detailed, article on protein quality that I found that sums up what the 2 books I mentioned above are talking about, and goes directly to Chau's test:

Link to article

Chau - I will try your test procedure with the flours I have, and post results. I do have access to Sam's Club, but I just choose not to consume bromate.

John

[Jackie Tran]

Great info guys.  John, I recently bought the Saus book.  I'll have to sit down and do some more reading to learn the differences between wheat types and their quality.   Looking forward to your results.   

[tjkoko]

@Jackie Tran:  Prepare yourself for information overload!!!!!!!!!   ;^D

[Pete-zza]

John,

That is a great article. Thanks for posting the link.

The idea of protein quality has come up from time to time on the forum. I recall that Marco (pizzanapoletana) brought up this point on at least one occasion. I did a search and found one of his posts on the subject, at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25311.html#msg25311. Marco also talked about gluten quality at Reply 41 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4114.msg34999/topicseen.html#msg34999.

Peter

[buceriasdon]

I have long maintained exactly what has been discussed in the last posts on the subject of protein quality as opposed to quantity concerning the over the counter Mexican made flours I have available to me. Though Mexico millers import wheat from the North the price of the flour indicates, at least to me, they are not importing premium wheat. In side by side comparisons to say GM All Purpose(when I find it) and Mexican flour the milled in USA flour has proved superior in every way. Everyone, be thankful for what you have.
Happy Easter greetings to everyone on the forum.
Don

[tjkoko]

I just spoke with Weisenberger Mills.  The representative stated that their AP flour is approx 8% protein (most commercial flours at this protein level are labeled as pastry or cake flour)

Their bread flour clocks in at approx 12.7% protein.

Dough conditioner is not recommended for use in bread doughs seeing as how they're allowed longer proofing times to reduce elasticity and improve extensibility.

Dough conditioner is recommended for quick doughs like pizza doughs.  Its use allows the pizza dough, after a short proof, to be stretched without tearing and without springing back into a smaller disk.

What an informational adventure.  And I've used W's bread flour (not the AP flour) for bread only with satisfactory results.

Best,
-T

[Pete-zza]

T,

See Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg147716.html#msg147716.

Peter

[gabaghool]

A couple of cents here from someone with no where near the knowledge, just a bunch of hands on.

Though Chau is one poster I try and read everything written, I just don't understand the statement that long cold ferm is unnecessary and that a warm quick ferm is just as good....I hope I didn't misunderstand it.

In 10 years of making pizza commercially, at least in the northeast....I know of NO high ranked pizza place that DOESN'T cold ferm.  Now, maybe because of the way we all mix the flour we NEED a long cold ferm, I don't know.  But, trust me, you make dough, short warm ferm and then make a pizza and bake it........horrendous.   Huge bubbles, burn easily, no taste, no open crumb, not where as crispy, chewy....it basically tastes like a dominoes crust.   Again, if Chau says a short warm ferm can make I good pizza, I would believe him.......its just that none of us can. (And I know DiFaras does this........just can't understand how)

ALso, I've worked with both bread type fllour (Seal of Minnesota) and Hi Gluten (All trumps) and the SOM will give a crust that is not as crisp, a bit more tender, nowhere near the rise, but much better the next day.  When I worked with Hi Gluten (a NY style place) I admit the pie crust looked nicer, and fresh out of the oven was probably a bit better, in my opinion, but delivered, or eaten cold the next day....its A TON chewier....which some may like and some may not....but its definitely the tougher of the two.

And lastly, the ONLY way I have ever gotten the bread to bake with the big open shiny crumb and the tiny blisters on the crust that crack when I take it out of the oven is to cold ferment it overnight.  Im not a baker, and I've seen bread baked with fairly nice open crumb using a short warm fermentation and no preferment....I just don't know how its done.

I guess Im shocked that a long cold ferment isn't accepted by 100%, thats all.

Thanks.

[dellavecchia]

Cold fermentation is a way to extend fermentation. It is not an essential part of making a dough that tastes good or has a good texture - it is simply one of the processes available. In a commercial operation, you need consistency and refrigeration provides a steady temperature, which in turn produces a specific product based on the yeast you are using. But if you understand the dough process, you may actually get a better product using room temperature fermentation, as the yeast do the job instead of bacteria (this is solely my opinion, though). You just need to have the right flour, the right mixing strategy, and the correct amount of yeast for the ambient room temperature you are fermenting in (or producing artificially).

John

[Jackie Tran]

Nick, I too have no where near the book knowledge of some of our senior members, but I as well have some hands on from the tests I've done.  TBH, I'm constantly learning new stuff, so you'll have to to take some of my older posts with a grain of salt.  Some of it is good info and some as good as I knew at the time.  

For a good while, I was never able to make good pizza with cold fermented dough as I found that my particularly dry environment lead to a more dry dough and a slightly tougher crumb and I was overdeveloping the dough.  On the other hand I was always able to make a good same day dough, so it lead me to concluded that I favored a same day emergency dough.   Since that time I have learned a few tricks to combat the dryness and toughness, decrease my kneading times and the way I knead, and now can make a good cold fermented dough.

2 of my favorite formulas for my preferred crust is either a 2 day cold ferment or a 24 hour Room temp ferment dough.  And I can  tell you it makes nearly an identical crust and crumb.  This finding lead me to the conclusion that when using a commercial yeast (IDY,ADY, and even CY), the length of fermentation is more important than the temperature of fermentation.   So I would say that a cold fermented dough is just as good as a LONG room fermented dough, if using commercial yeast.  

You should know that not all room temp fermented dough has to be an emergency dough made in 4 hours.   A dough that is room temp fermented for 24 hours will yield a different product than a 4 hour room temp fermented dough, even though both are technically SAME DAY doughs.  A room temperature fermented dough can be 24, 36, or even 48 hours.  And while it is not a cold fermented dough, it can make just the same quality of dough as a cold fermented dough.   IMO, the only difference between the 2 is the temperature.  In both scenarios, you are allowing for a lengthy fermentation period which allow for enzymes to help break down the dough, which gives the dough an improved taste, texture, and digestibility.  And the first 2 are argueable and the 3rd not.

From my limited experience in  baking bread and pizza, the tiny blisters are not exclusively cause by cold fermentation.  But rather a product of the relative strength of the dough, the extent of fermentation, the relative (high) surface tension on the skin of the dough, and to a degree relatively high heat.  When the dough is well kneaded and the gluten is well developed, it provides sufficient strength and structure to support and trap air and Co2, to tent up the air sort of speak.  Then surface tension during balling is built onto the surface of the dough forcing the air bubbles closer to the surface, followed by a good degree of fermentation.   Lastly the instant hot/high heat causes the final expansion of those air pockets, creating blisters.  It's been sometime now, but from my recollection, I have been able to get those blisters in a same day dough without cold fermentation.  Again, it is likely more about the strength of the dough, surface tension, degree of fermentation, and bake temp that causes blistering.  

And yes, HG in comparison to BF, if done right is SLIGHTLY chewier, heavier, cools a bit tougher, BUT it doesn't have to be a ton more respectively.  Despite what any expert tells you about HG flour, it is an absolute myth that HG flours make really tough and chewy products, and that it requires a mixer or more kneading to develop the gluten.  Absolutely 100% bogus.  It can be easily hand kneaded in a matter of a few minutes and can make a wonderfully soft and tender crumb, if you have the hydration high enough.  

But don't take my word for it.  Anyone can see this for themselves.  Do a test between AP flour and HG flour to see the difference.  Make a similar feeling dough, and you'll have to obviously adjust your hydration up for the HG dough.  Now hand knead both for 2 minutes and test the strength by attempting the windowpane technique.   Continue kneading for another 2 minutes and re-test.  Now allow the dough to sit for 30m, retest for window paning, then again at the one hour mark.  You will see a difference in dough strength at each phase and it will become obvious how protein content correlates to hydration levels, gluten developement, ease or difficulty in achieving gluten development (window paning), etc.  

Again, this has just been my limited experience and YMMV.

Cheers,
Chau

[gabaghool]

Thanks guys for the feedback.

Dell- but what about the flavor of the dough?  Isn't this the reason for preferments??  Crumb appearance, holes, and textures are one thing....flavor another.  Im NOT saying your are wrong, these are simply questions I ask so I can UNDERSTAND what I am doing.  Its amazing how little you know when you simply DO what you have been taught to do....without ever getting any info as to WHY....

Chau
Its always good to hear from you.  I guess this has to do with another post of mine.  Why some places I worked at do a 12 hour room temp ferm and then an overnight cold ferm and then a portion and balled FURTHER ferm......I guess.

Personally, with the bread part of my post.  I THINK those tiny blisters are a result of the moisture the dough picks up from being refrigerated.   When I take a sheetpan of doughs out of the walkin, they are covered in moisture.  So I think it kinda acts like shooting steam into a bread oven would......get what I mean??

But, thanks again for spending your valuable time trying teach teach this donkey something.....Im learning though, slowly but surely.......

[dellavecchia]

Dell- but what about the flavor of the dough?  Isn't this the reason for preferments??  Crumb appearance, holes, and textures are one thing....flavor another.  Im NOT saying your are wrong, these are simply questions I ask so I can UNDERSTAND what I am doing.  Its amazing how little you know when you simply DO what you have been taught to do....without ever getting any info as to WHY....

Yes, you are correct in that using a pre fermented stage you gain flavor with a "short" dough. That can be a poolish in the case of commercial yeast, or a levain/starter for natural yeast. Brian Spangler's dough is an example of a same day dough that uses a poolish for excellent flavor results:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg124161.html#msg124161

John

PS. Great post Chau.

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks Nick and John for the nice words.  But honestly Nick, it's just a sharing and exchange of information.  Without that, the forum doesn't thrive.  I wish more members would share what they know openly.  I'm not sure if it is lack of time, motivation, or a fear of being corrected.  

Nick as far as moisture on the doughballs, you may be correct I don't know.  Our physical environments are different so I can't say with certainty that your dough is picking up moisture OR losing moisture.  IF your dough is developing any sort of (dry) skin while being refrigerated, it is losing moisture and not picking up moisture.  The water droplets you see on the dough is probably just condensation from evaporation. 

Are your doughballs covered at all?  If so, is the inside surface of the container covered as well in moisture?  I haven't done this test, but an easy way to test your theory on whether or not moisture on a doughball creates blisters is to mist a room temp doughball with water prior to baking in the oven to see if you can create those blisters without the cold fermentation.  This test is a weak one and wouldn't prove much b/c IMO, I think the factors that causes blistering is much more than moisture on the dough. 

Alternatively, to see if that condensation on your refrigerated dough is indeed causing blistering or not, next time you bake up that dough, take a paper towel and wipe the condensation off of a doughball.  Bake it up side by side with a regular doughball and see if there is a difference.  Please let me know your results if you do the test.  

Chau

[Pete-zza]

 But honestly Nick, it's just a sharing and exchange of information.  Without that, the forum doesn't thrive.  I wish more members would share what they know openly.  I'm not sure if it is lack of time, motivation, or a fear of being corrected.  

Chau,

As both an active member and a Moderator for several years (since 2004), I have had a chance to see and study the trends of the forum. I have come to the conclusion that a very large percent of the folks who visit the forum are really only after recipes or to solve pizza problems. They are a large silent majority, with many lurkers, and are not particularly interested in becoming active members or contributing useful content through posting, or supporting the forum in any other way (like donating to the forum). And they are not particularly interested in the science aspects of pizza making. Many people register solely to have access to the forum's search features (before Steve changed things a while back they did not have to register to conduct searches), which allows them to find recipes and other information they may need to make their pizzas as well as to approach other members using the PM feature to request help. And since most of them do not have WFOs or LBEs/MBEs or 2Stones, or a desire or ability to construct same, they are mostly interested in recipes that can be practiced with standard home ovens and using ingredients that they can find at their local supermarkets.

The favorite recipes among this group are for the NY style (with the Lehmann NY style dough recipe being the favorite) and for clones of chain pizzas, even small regional chains. You can pretty much tell where they are looking for recipes or information by looking at the page views of the most popular threads. Many of those threads have little current activity yet have extraordinarily high page views (see, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?board=36.0 and compare with http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/board,26.0.html). The ideal recipes are those that are are like cookbook recipes with everything pretty much in one place, and preferably with volume measurements (although many have scales). They by and large will not read through threads, and certainly not long ones, to find the recipes. I learned this when I created the compilations at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8297.0.html and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html. Note the relatively small number of page views considering that the former thread is over two years old and the latter thread is about a year old. I suspect that people are disappointed when they open up those threads. Had I known the chilly reception that those threads would receive, I would not have created them.

At any given time, there are only a small group of members who are active, hard-core members such as yourself. And that group can change quite dramatically over the course of a year. Newbies have the shortest life spans on the forum and, as a result, rarely end up contributing much of value to the forum. They are the hardest group to help because they need a lot of hand holding. On occasion, a superstar will emerge from that group, but that is quite rare.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Peter, it was very interesting to see and compare the page views of the popular chain pizza threads against the NP style threads.  It really does show what the silent majority are interested in.  I can defintely understand a newbie's reluctance to just jump in and post as it can take quite a bit of time to settle in and get use to navigating the forum.

I guess I was thinking more about the large percentage of the regulars that we have that enjoy lurking much more so than contributing.  I'm always surprise to get a PM or an email from members about one of the formulas I've posted, because without that contact I would have not known anyone was even trying those recipes.  I would rather they just post their question in that particular thread so others might benefit, but it seems as though most people would rather not be heard from.  

Chau

[norma427]

I'm always surprise to get a PM or an email from members about one of the formulas I've posted, because without that contact I would have not known anyone was even trying those recipes.  I would rather they just post their question in that particular thread so others might benefit, but it seems as though most people would rather not be heard from.  

Chau

Chau,

I also get PM’s about formulas I posted, or from members that want help privately.  If it is something simple, I will reply in a PM, but if a member wants too much information, I usually ask them to post on the forum for help.  I say I will help as much as I can, but if I would answer something wrong, then maybe other members of the forum could help.  I am no where near as advanced as you are in your pizza making skills. Only in my opinion,  I think members that want a lot of answers, could get better advice than mine, if they posted openly on the forum.  It takes a lot of time to answer questions in a PM, and I am not always sure if I am giving the right answer.  I still make many mistakes myself, and am always continuing to learn from other members. I have asked a lot of dumb questions openly on the forum myself since I have become a member.   

Norma

[mkevenson]

I just read this thread from front to back. I wanted to reply both in the hopes that others not familiar with the thread would read it, and as a way of maybe shedding some light on member participation.
The last page of this thread deals with member participation or lack there of. In reality it takes me a long time to gain the necessary skills to accomplish a new task. Especially when that task is as complicated as dough making, as presented on this forum. As new members, I would assume that many of us who are dedicated would love to contribute one day and be helpful in our contributions. I do agree that if I can't contribute in a post then at least I can contribute with a donation of funds. This forum is worth the cost of several books @ $20 a pop. Probably worth more if charged by the hour, than a cooking course.
Thanks to all the "senior members" for your time and dedication in posting your ideas, it is most helpful to many here even if we are mostly silent.

Mark

P.S. isn't  it great when the spell check doesn't find any errors?