Author Topic: Wfo build thread  (Read 4770 times)

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Offline forzaroma

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Wfo build thread
« on: April 18, 2011, 09:19:37 AM »
I remember seeing last week a thread on a members build but I forgot who it was and can't find it using the search button. What threads are recommended for a great wfo build?

                                                                                                                            Mike


Offline Ev

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2011, 09:03:12 PM »
I don't know if this is the thread you saw or how great it is but here is mine
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11155.msg100628.html#msg100628

Offline JConk007

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 09:59:54 PM »
Heres my good old Earthstone Kit build from a ways back
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7338.0.html 
John
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 10:01:25 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 10:04:59 PM »
@ev awesome thanks perfect



@JC. Where didu purchase the kit?

Offline JConk007

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 10:25:38 PM »
The kit engine only was purchased directly from Earthstone Ovens in Ca. I  have also developed other contacts over the years of R&D that sell various types of ovens/kits besided the big box names as well. If you are interested in an oven shoot me a PM and let me know what you are looking for. There are alot of  under insulated, poor refractory materials out there,, shaped like an igloo posing as Wood Fired Ovens!
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 10:28:21 PM »
Engine? Haha I'm confused

Offline JConk007

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2011, 10:59:36 PM »
Engine = kit , its what drives the oven no matter what finish you put around it.
or in other words the part you put the wood in.
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 08:46:37 AM »
Cool I will send you a PM later on thanks.

Offline Ev

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 04:56:14 PM »
For What It's Worth, my "engine" purrs like a kitten. A Maserati kitten, that is! :-D

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2011, 09:08:21 AM »
The kit engine only was purchased directly from Earthstone Ovens in Ca. I  have also developed other contacts over the years of R&D that sell various types of ovens/kits besided the big box names as well. If you are interested in an oven shoot me a PM and let me know what you are looking for. There are alot of  under insulated, poor refractory materials out there,, shaped like an igloo posing as Wood Fired Ovens!
John


Hey sent u a Pm

                                       Mike


Offline jgestner

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 08:20:30 PM »
Hi Gang
If you put more good refractory cement all over the available cheaper precast WFO units to whatever is a wonderfully accepted thickness, can that bring them up a few notches? Especially if you use state of the art blanket insulation over that and vermiculite and or stucco over that?

Newbie here
blazing into action soon

John :pizza:
Merrill, WI
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 08:48:43 PM by jgestner »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 06:01:22 AM »
Hi Gang
If you put more good refractory cement all over the available cheaper precast WFO units to whatever is a wonderfully accepted thickness, can that bring them up a few notches? Especially if you use state of the art blanket insulation over that and vermiculite and or stucco over that?

Newbie here
blazing into action soon

John :pizza:
Merrill, WI

When you say cheap, are you referring to an oven made with substandard material?  The reality is that all insulation does is retain the oven's heat, it doesn't improve the quality of the oven.  There's no point of having a well insulated oven if it's going to eventually fall apart. 

Matt

Offline jgestner

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 06:48:16 AM »
quote Matt "When you say cheap, are you referring to an oven made with substandard material?  The reality is that all insulation does is retain the oven's heat, it doesn't improve the quality of the oven.  There's no point of having a well insulated oven if it's going to eventually fall apart. "


Hi Matt and gang
I am new to all of this and totally open to discussion of issues. When I say cheap, I am saying I don't have $10,000.00 for this experiment in fine cuisine, not anything about substandard material. I am seriously considering some kind of cast oven over the expense and labor of a full brick built Pompei build. It doesn't mean I expect a cast enclosure to fall apart, and I said I wanted to help the unit with more good quality refractory cement BEFORE INSULATING it if that would be beneficial to some brand that was built a bit thin. No flame war needed here.
My assumption is that adding good quality refractory cement to any oven adds oven mass. I also assume that there is a quantity of oven mass that can be optimized for best heat, or passed to the point of never heating to maximum. If a prebuilt cast oven is a little weak on mass, is it unfair to think it could still be brought to proper mass if some extra refractory cement was placed over it? My understanding at this point is that refractory cement is an accepted material for an oven's interior cooking mass and not just an insulation.

My dialogue had no assumption or expectation of anything falling apart. I only wanted to propose a solution for a prebuilt that needed or could benefit from some extra mass.

Thanks for the discussion

John
Merrill, WI
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 06:52:29 AM by jgestner »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2011, 07:37:45 AM »
quote Matt "When you say cheap, are you referring to an oven made with substandard material?  The reality is that all insulation does is retain the oven's heat, it doesn't improve the quality of the oven.  There's no point of having a well insulated oven if it's going to eventually fall apart. "


Hi Matt and gang
I am new to all of this and totally open to discussion of issues. When I say cheap, I am saying I don't have $10,000.00 for this experiment in fine cuisine, not anything about substandard material. I am seriously considering some kind of cast oven over the expense and labor of a full brick built Pompei build. It doesn't mean I expect a cast enclosure to fall apart, and I said I wanted to help the unit with more good quality refractory cement BEFORE INSULATING it if that would be beneficial to some brand that was built a bit thin. No flame war needed here.
My assumption is that adding good quality refractory cement to any oven adds oven mass. I also assume that there is a quantity of oven mass that can be optimized for best heat, or passed to the point of never heating to maximum. If a prebuilt cast oven is a little weak on mass, is it unfair to think it could still be brought to proper mass if some extra refractory cement was placed over it? My understanding at this point is that refractory cement is an accepted material for an oven's interior cooking mass and not just an insulation.

My dialogue had no assumption or expectation of anything falling apart. I only wanted to propose a solution for a prebuilt that needed or could benefit from some extra mass.

Thanks for the discussion

John
Merrill, WI

By refractory cement, I assume that you are referring to an insulated castable.  This is absolutely necessary when building an oven regardless of whether it's a precast or built brick by brick.  It is not typically applied directly to the outside dome.  It is usually applied over metal lathing atop layers of ceramic blanket.  By the way, there is no need to use CAPS, I fully understand & hear what you are saying.

Matt

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2011, 08:19:49 AM »
Casting an oven is going to cost more than building a brick one as a rule, FYI.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2011, 08:39:21 AM »
John from my newbish understanding of wfo's and of what you are asking, yes it would work, but most precasted ovens sold should be at an acceptable level of thickness or mass already for a quick bake.   Adding extra mass does 2 things.  It burns more wood to preheat that mass so that it's fully saturated and helps retain heat in the oven longer after the firing, assuming that the oven insulation is sufficient.   Unless you plan on routinely cooking the next day or 2 after making pizza, I'm not sure it's necessary to add extra mass.

As long as your dome thickness is about 2 inches or so to begin with and well insulated, it should retain heat just fine.   If you are not planning to bake off of the residual heat the next day and just want to do pizza alone, an uninsulated metal dome oven seems to work just fine.   I know that's not what you are looking at but wanted to mention the extreme end so that you might get some ideas. 

Adding extra mass maybe unecessarry depending on what your baking needs are.  A lower mass oven provided it's insulated well, should give off plenty of heat to bake what you need inside of 1 day. 

Chau

Offline Matthew

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2011, 09:25:58 AM »
 Adding extra mass does 2 things.  It burns more wood to preheat that mass so that it's fully saturated and helps retain heat in the oven longer after the firing, assuming that the oven insulation is sufficient.   Unless you  

Chau
Close. ;)  You'll be using less wood because the heat is being retained & not escaping.

Matt


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2011, 10:09:02 AM »
Matt, so if we had 2 ovens that are the same in everyway except in the dome thickeness (2" vs 4"), same insulation, same oven & chimney opening, etc.   And given that both ovens are saturated with heat and had live fires going, that the thicker oven would burn less wood? 

I think I can see that, but would the difference be appreciable for the few hours it would take when baking a few pies in the home setting?  It may be more significant in a pizzeria over a day's worth of baking?  I would think that for the home setting, the extra wood needed to heat up that extra mass would more than make up for difference in heat loss.   But this I do not know.  Just thinking out loud. 

John, I just don't think you'll need to add mass but maybe if you posted the oven you had in mind for this hypothethical project.  But if you wanted to, I don't see why it wouldn't work though. 

Chau

Offline jgestner

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2011, 10:12:43 AM »
Chau
Thanks for your quick and clear response.  Just this week I had some success with my first attempt at a propane fired LBE pizza. I see how lack of thermal mass can be overcome by massive heat.
I am already thinking of a possible WFO of some sort. I am in rural north central WI and am more fearful of frost heaves and -30F temps on a possible WFO build than the availability of almost free hardwood on my own land.
I will not likely do the pizza day one, bread day two, pork roast day three kind of firings that some others do. My interest is more like just a pizza or two or a few loaves of crusty French/Italian bread.
I have some experience as a retired art teacher with pottery and casting. That is where my skills dictated a search of a possible cast enclosure with whatever appropriate oven type cements came from. I am looking at possible form shapes for fully casting my own oven either inside or outside of.
Cost is a factor in this as in any experiment.
Thanks for all of your help and insight in these forums.
John :pizza:
Merrill WI
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 10:20:34 AM by jgestner »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Wfo build thread
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2011, 11:52:53 AM »
John just so you know, I'm not an expert on any of the many topics I post about.   :D  I just more or less approach problems by trial and error.  You can always try it and if it doesn't work, then you'll know.  

Considering your local weather and the abundance of wood, I would personally double mass the oven as you had propose, double insulate, and double enclose to protect against the extreme weather.   That should allow you to hold the heat in longer for baking the next day.   I'm not sure if different types of refractory material hold heat in better or not.   If you decide to cover a precasted oven with refractory cement, you may consider mixing in some vermiculite into the mix.   The % to use I have no idea, but someone on the forno bravo forum would have that answer.  

As far as a potential form shape, I did see some rather large plastic igloo shape dog houses at Lowes/HD.  I'm not saying it would work, but I did wonder if it would work as a potential mold for a DIY home oven.  

Going off of Tom's idea, you can also add cut bricks that you would mortar to the outside of a precasted oven to build up the mass if you weren't confident in mixing refractory cement with vermiculite.  

You may not be so inclined to use the oven if you are knee deep in snow or the elements outside so you may consider building it inside an enclosed patio of sorts.  

Good luck and do keep us posted.

Chau
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 12:15:11 PM by Jackie Tran »


 

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