Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?

[norma427]

formula

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Looking at your dough formulation, apart from the high hydration value, the formulation looks pretty close to a NY style dough formulation (but with a somewhat thicker crust). I will be interested to see if you will have to do any more stretch and folds or the like to be able to handle the dough easily and without excessive extensibility or sticking problems.

Out of curiosity, what flour are you using for this experiment?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Looking at your dough formulation, apart from the high hydration value, the formulation looks pretty close to a NY style dough formulation (but with a somewhat thicker crust). I will be interested to see if you will have to do any more stretch and folds or the like to be able to handle the dough easily and without excessive extensibility or sticking problems.

Out of curiosity, what flour are you using for this experiment?

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t realize the hybrid Reinhart dough formula that John had posted was so close to a NY style, but with the higher hydration.  By the way the dough felt yesterday, I think I will either have to do some stretch and folds or reballs tomorrow, because the dough was still sticky.  I will see how the dough feels when I go to market tomorrow.

I used KABF (the commercial kind from the Country Store) in the formula.  Since that is a lower protein flour, I am almost sure I will have to do some work with the dough ball, so I can then use it Tuesday.  I plan on trying one dough ball out this week and then let the other dough ball ferment in my refrigerator, until it looks like it is fermenting more, then freezing the second dough ball for next week.  If these experiments work out, then I might try Mexican manteca for the oil.

Norma

[norma427]

This is how the hybrid Reinhart dough ball, made in the UBM, looked today when I arrived at market, top and bottom.  I only had to do a couple of reballs and the dough ball looked fine.  I didn’t need any extra flour for the reballs.  The dough ball was only coated with flour.  Last picture is how the dough ball looked after the reballs.

Norma

[norma427]

This is how the hybrid Reinhart pie turned out that was mixed in the UBM.  The crust didn’t brown as much as I wanted, but the pie was very good.  The dough ball sat at room temperature for 3 hrs. before the bake.  The rim was very moist and the bottom crust had a nice crispness.  The dough ball was very easy to open.  I didn’t do any more reballs after yesterday.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

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Norma

[norma427]

This post is just to show how the hybrid Reinhart dough ball looks after almost 5 days of cold fermenting.

Norma

[norma427]

These are pictures of the second hybrid Reinhart dough made last Saturday in the UBM.  The pictures of the dough are from yesterday and today.  I normally would have put a dough that is starting to bubble on the top of the dough and fermenting so much on the bottom in the freezer, until I am ready to do a reball, after the dough is unfrozen, but since John (fazzari) posted he had some ugly dough balls before he did a reball after a long cold ferment at Reply 55 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13697.msg142577.html#msg142577 I guess I will experiment with this hybrid Reinhart dough and let it go until Monday, when I do a reball.  If I change my mind, I will post when I would decide to freeze the dough.

Pictures of dough ball top and bottom from yesterday and today.  This hybrid Reinhart dough wasn’t mixed in any special way, but quickly in the UBM. 

Norma

[norma427]

I guess my hybrid Reinhart dough ball, made in the UBM, will last until tomorrow when I do the reball. So far it looks okay. These are pictures of the dough ball this morning.

On another note, there are many wheat fields in my area.  I think it is spring wheat, but am not sure if the wheat grown by farmers in our area is soft or hard spring wheat.  If I had to guess, I would guess it is soft spring wheat, but will ask one of the farmers in my area, what kind of wheats or wheat they grow here.  In a future experiment after I find out what kind of wheat is in the fields, I might try some of the wheat that is grown in my area in combination with another flour, in the UBM to see what happens.

Pictures of wheat fields in our area.

Norma

[norma427]

This is how the hybrid Reinhart dough, mixed in the UBM looked today when I arrived at market.  The one bubble popped, but I think that was from driving to market or shaking the dough around.  I floured the dough lightly and reballed.  Then I lightly floured the dough ball and also brushed it and the plastic container with olive oil.  This dough ball was cold fermented for 10 days, as of today.

Picture below

Norma

[Saturday Coffee]

I wonder if the simplicity of the universal bread maker is the key in a great tasting dough.   

[norma427]

I wonder if the simplicity of the universal bread maker is the key in a great tasting dough.  

Saturday Coffee,

I really don’t know if the simplicity of the Universal bread maker is the key to great tasting or mixing the dough gently, although it is very easy to use.  The doughs I have tried in the UBM so far were easy to come together, and not any fuss had to be make with the dough.  When using my Kitchen Aid mixer or my Hobart mixer they seem to mix the dough rougher.  Who knows if the person that invented this bread maker years ago really knew what they were doing.  The only problem so far is two dough have to be made at at time.  I had seen different places that sell these old bread machines and some places they are only about 34.00.  I haven’t tried bread in the UBM, but will sometime.  I like to use old equipment to see what happens.  I would believe that mixing dough by hand though would produce about the same kind of dough.  At least this UBM doesn’t have much friction factor, because it can just be mixed slowly.

Thanks for posting the picture of the lady mixing the dough in the UBM.    She probably really knew how to make great dough.



Norma

[norma427]

This is how John"s hybrid formula mixed in the UBM and fermented for 11 days looked, when made yesterday.  The reball was done 1 day before the baked.  This pie turned out very good, but I made a mistake in flouring the dough ball before the bake.  We were busy yesterday, since it is now almost summer, I was in a hurry more than usual, because I had to keep baking other pies.  I only floured the top and the bottom of the dough ball with a little flour.  I should have put the dough ball in my flour container and floured it more, because I could see it was a little sticky coming out of the plastic container. This dough was very easy to open. I also took longer to apply the toppings since I had to wait on some customers.  Steve and I then applied the toppings, but by that time the dough was starting to stick on the peel.  When the pie was slide into the oven it stuck on one place.  That is why the pie isn’t perfectly round.

This pie had great oven spring, a moist rim, and a fantastic taste in the crust.  The dressings used for this pizza were, my regular sauce, spinach put under the cheeses, (my blend of mozzarellas, Montena/Toranto Fresh Mozzarella cheese, and a blend of cheese Steve gave me) and grape tomatoes.  

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

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Norma

[norma427]

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Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

That's a nice looking pizza. Can you describe its style, crust characteristics, and how it differed from your usual preferment Lehmann pizza?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

That's a nice looking pizza. Can you describe its style, crust characteristics, and how it differed from your usual preferment Lehmann pizza?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying the hybrid Reinhart was a nice looking pizza.  I only wish I could have taken more time when I was trying to apply the toppings and opening the dough.  I was really busy and so many things were going on at once.  I had applied the sauce, then had to wait on customers.  By that time the skin was starting to stick to the peel.  Then Steve and I hurried to apply the other toppings.  If I would have had more time, I think the pizza would have turn out better in appearance. 

To me the hybrid Reinhart was a very Artisan style, at least in my opinion.  The taste of the crust was fantastic from the long cold ferment.  To compare this pie with my normal preferment Lehmann dough pies, this hybrid Reinhart, is so much more moister in the rim, has better oven spring, and is slightly crispy on the bottom of the crust.  All in all, this was one of the better pizzas I have made at market.  Steve, the other market taste testers and a few customers also really liked this pizza.  I save a leftover slice to reheat to see how it does when reheated.

I didn’t think this hybrid Reinhart dough would make it as long as it did, (when cold fermenting), but I guess Marco and John were right, that it is hard to deplete all the residual sugars in a dough.  At least that applies to this formula. 

If I would have to pick a pizza between the hybrid Reinhart and the preferment Lehmann dough, I would pick the hybrid Reinhart, at least for this experiment.  I know you and Tom wouldn’t like to hear that.    If you had a choice to pick between the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and the hybrid Reinhart dough pizzas, just by appearance, (of crumb structure and oven spring) which one would you pick? 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Actually, the reason why I asked you about the style and how the hybrid Reinhart pizza compared with the preferment Lehmann pizzas is because I have long felt that there was perhaps a better solution for your purposes at market than the preferment Lehmann pizza, because of the complexity that a preferment adds to the process for your particular application, market rules, and timetable.

I agree that the Reinhart pizza has a more artisan appearance but, as I previously noted, it also bears a close resemblance from a formulation standpoint to a NY style but for the considerably higher hydration and a slightly thicker crust (that reflects your personal preference). I think the challenge is to find a workable solution based on the hybrid Reinhart formulation that might meet your needs at market while sidestepping the preferment process. I could be wrong, but I think it is problematic to try to make a ten-day old Reinhart dough for market and being assured of consistent performance. But something far short of a ten-day fermentation might meet your needs, even if you don't get the full complement of byproducts of fermentation and benefits using a ten day fermentation. So, a truer comparison with a preferment Lehmann pizza would be whatever form of the hybrid Reinhart pizza you can make consistently for market purposes.

I am not the type to fall in love with any pizza, so you shouldn't worry about hurting my feelings (or Tom's either). My goals are almost always directed to finding solutions to problems and getting people onto the playing field, which I find more stimulating, intellectually and otherwise. That is how we came up with the preferment Lehmann formulation in the first place.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Actually, the reason why I asked you about the style and how the hybrid Reinhart pizza compared with the preferment Lehmann pizzas is because I have long felt that there was perhaps a better solution for your purposes at market than the preferment Lehmann pizza, because of the complexity that a preferment adds to the process for your particular application, market rules, and timetable.

I agree that the Reinhart pizza has a more artisan appearance but, as I previously noted, it also bears a close resemblance from a formulation standpoint to a NY style but for the considerably higher hydration and a slightly thicker crust (that reflects your personal preference). I think the challenge is to find a workable solution based on the hybrid Reinhart formulation that might meet your needs at market while sidestepping the preferment process. I could be wrong, but I think it is problematic to try to make a ten-day old Reinhart dough for market and being assured of consistent performance. But something far short of a ten-day fermentation might meet your needs, even if you don't get the full complement of byproducts of fermentation and benefits using a ten day fermentation. So, a truer comparison with a preferment Lehmann pizza would be whatever form of the hybrid Reinhart pizza you can make consistently for market purposes.

I am not the type to fall in love with any pizza, so you shouldn't worry about hurting my feelings (or Tom's either). My goals are almost always directed to finding solutions to problems and getting people onto the playing field, which I find more stimulating, intellectually and otherwise. That is how we came up with the preferment Lehmann formulation in the first place.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t know the reason you asked me about how the hybrid Reinhart pizza compared with the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas, was because you have long felt that perhaps there was a better solution than the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas I make now.  I know using a preferment does have its problems, but so far I have managed.  

I know you did previously note that the hybrid Reinhart does have a close resemblance to a NY style, except for the hydration.  I only upped the thickness factor because I also like a little thicker pizza crust and when taking the slices out of the warming case, the pizzas reheat much better than a thinner slice.  The slices also don’t want to flop around as much, (when removing them from the warming case) and the bottom seems to crisp better, when reheated.

I also think it would be problematic to make a 10 day cold fermented hybrid Reinhart dough for market, but don’t think a dough made on Friday and left to cold ferment until Monday, then reballed for Tuesday, would be too problematic.  I wouldn’t know though, until I did some tests.  The hybrid Reinhart dough balls are much easier to open than my preferment Lehmann dough balls.

I am glad your feelings and Tom’s wouldn’t be hurt, if I decide to experiment more with this hybrid Reinhart dough for market.  I know you had spent a long time figuring out how to make the preferment Lehmann dough so it would work for me at market.

I just want to be able to make the best Artisan pizza I can at market, which has been my goal for a long while.

Do you have any suggestions about how I should try out the hybrid Reinhart dough for market?  I could make a small (5dough balls) batch of dough on Friday to see what happens.  I also like how everything worked okay with using the KABF too, so I guess I will keep the flour the same.  Do you think I should start another thread if the hybrid Reinhart dough will be tried at market, or should I stay on this thread?

So many customers have told me how much they like the pizzas made from the preferment Lehmann dough, so I guess I will also have to test the waters, to see if customers would like the hybrid Reinhart pizzas as much.  I just had two customers tell me yesterday they haven’t ever tasted a better pizza in our area (and the one customer has a cousin that owns two pizzerias in my area), and some tourists from NY that said my pizza was better than most pizzas they have tried in NY.  That is saying something for all the hard work you have done.  

Norma