Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?

[norma427]

I had a Universal Bread Maker in my one shed for awhile.  I never used it, but I think it was made about 1904.  Since I like to try out different ways to make pizza and bread, I thought I might give this bread maker a try, after I clean it up.  It says on the top of the bread mixer it saves time in mixing dough and the dough comes out better.  I don’t know about that, but I guess in older days this kind of bread mixer was popular. The Universal Bread Maker does have a dough hook, that is turned by hand.

In the recipe book it has many recipes for breads.  Most of them call for lard.  I know lard isn’t like it was years ago.  One thing I would like to know, if I could just buy a piece of fat from a pig at market and render it and use that as the lard in a pizza or bread dough?  Also could bacon grease be used as lard?

Does anyone else have any good recipes for an old bread mixer?

Thanks,

Pictures below

Norma

[buceriasdon]

Norma, Use equal amount of vegetable shortening or 25 percent more butter, I use strictly no salt butter, and I just go by volume.
Don

[norma427]

Norma, Use equal amount of vegetable shortening or 25 percent more butter, I use strictly no salt butter, and I just go by volume.
Don

Don,

Do you use the hard vegetable shortening like Crisco with the added butter?  I will give that a go later this week to see what happens.

Thanks,

Norma

[buceriasdon]

Norma, I have used one or the other, sorry never blended them. I don't see the purpose. I suppose if one used margerine it would be the same amount as butter, but I have no experience with margerine.
Don

Don,

Do you use the hard vegetable shortening like Crisco with the added butter?  I will give that a go later this week to see what happens.

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Don,

My recollection is that in Mexico they use what I would call a "liquid" form of lard as opposed the hydrogenated solid form that is sold in the U.S. (and in just about every supermarket near me) as Manteca (http://www.texmex.net/Graphics/lard.gif). I once had the liquid form in frijoles while I was in Mexico. When I tried to find it in a local supermarket that caters mostly to Hispanics, a nice lady who works there (she is Hispanic also) took me to a product that looked like the liquid manteca. If Norma wants to be true to a bread recipe in the recipe book, she might use a liquid form of the lard. Using the ingredient quantities in the recipe booklet for her newly rediscovered bread maker, she might be able to make a comparable amount of the Lehmann NY style dough. We have done so much to that formulation, why not a lard version ? After being in the doghouse for so many years, lard seems to be making a comeback.

Peter

[norma427]

Don,

My recollection is that in Mexico they use what I would call a "liquid" form of lard as opposed the hydrogenated solid form that is sold in the U.S. (and in just about every supermarket near me) as Manteca (http://www.texmex.net/Graphics/lard.gif). I once had the liquid form in frijoles while I was in Mexico. When I tried to find it in a local supermarket that caters mostly to Hispanics, a nice lady who works there (she is Hispanic also) took me to a product that looked like the liquid manteca. If Norma wants to be true to a bread recipe in the recipe book, she might use a liquid form of the lard. Using the ingredient quantities in the recipe booklet for her newly rediscovered bread maker, she might be able to make a comparable amount of the Lehmann NY style dough. We have done so much to that formulation, why not a lard version ? After being in the doghouse for so many years, lard seems to be making a comeback.

Peter

Peter,

We have many Hispanic and Mexican people near where I live, but mostly near Lancaster.  I will look for the Manteca in a Hispanic or Mexican store.  There is a Mexican grocery store in Mt. Joy, but I am not sure what they carry. I never heard of Manteca before.  I don’t know if you want any of the recipes in the book, to see what is added, to see if you can figure out a Lehmann dough to mix in my old bread mixer.   I could type some out, if you wanted me to, to see if any of them might fit the Lehmann dough. Of course the measurements are in volume measurements.  I see most of the recipes call for compressed yeast.  I know we have tried many experiments with the Lehmann dough, so why not another one with Manteca (lard), if I can find it.  Are you ready for another Lehmann dough formula with lard?    I don’t even know how to use lard in a dough with the dough calculator. At least this dough and pizza would also be unique because it will be mixed in a different kind of hand mixer.

I had this Universal dough mixer for about 15 years, but never gave it much attention, before today.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma, I have used one or the other, sorry never blended them. I don't see the purpose. I suppose if one used margerine it would be the same amount as butter, but I have no experience with margerine.
Don

Don,

Thanks for you thoughts!

Norma

[norma427]

Calling for the Lehmann dough master Peter: I went to my local Mexican grocery store in Mount Joy today and although they don’t have a lot of Mexican food or ingredients, looky, looky what I found!  After talking to the Mexican lady that owns the store she showed me this Manteca Pura, (rendered Pork Skin Fat).  It looks kinda yucky, but I guess this is the right kind since it liquid.  I guess it is also time to clean up my Universal bread machine and try some Lehmann dough with the Manteca Pura.  Do you have any idea of how much of this Manteca Pura I should add to the regular Lehmann dough?  I wonder if Tom Lehmann ever added the Manteca to one of his doughs or ever used a Universal hand cranked bread machine to mix one of his doughs. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Well, I'll be. That looks a lot like what I saw at the market near me that caters mostly to Hispanics.

Unlike butter and margarine, both of which contain some water, lard does not. That means you can make a direct replacement of the oil in the Lehmann dough formulation with the lard. You will have to decide how much lard you want to use from a baker's percent standpoint, and also how much dough you want to make. The amount of dough should be enough for your hand cranked bread maker to handle. That is, it can't be too little and it can't be too much.

I know for a fact that Tom Lehmann has used lard in a pizza dough. In fact, I remembered that he discussed the subject of lard recently at the PMQ Think Tank. I did a search and found his posts in the thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10010&p=69404&hilit=#p69366. I believe that the lard you found is perhaps of the better form that Tom discusses in his PMQTT posts even though it is a U.S. product. For example, I did not see any mention of deodorizers in the ingredients list you posted.

It would also not be unprecedented to use lard in a NY style dough. I recall reading that Sbarro used lard many years ago, and I tried it out myself but using the solid lard form.

Since the lard product you found has salt in it, you might want to reduce the salt in the Lehmann dough formulation to compensate. I couldn't read the rest of the label you showed in the photo but there must be a weight-volume statement and also portion size and number of portions in the container and also an amount of sodium per serving.

Peter

[JConk007]

Not exactly the Bosch Universal but universal indeed!
Norma- thanks for the flash Back ! I remember my mother having that exact same unit! the locking latch one end and the hooks over the rim on the other end. I cant remember what came out of it? But I know I was very curious and futzed with it quite a bit. Have fun cant wait to see it in action!
John

[buceriasdon]

Norma and Peter, For fun I'll take my camera manana for my walk and take some pictures of the process of making Manteca here. Trust me you can smell it a block away. At least that's what I think they are doing..........
Don

[norma427]

Norma,

Well, I'll be. That looks a lot like what I saw at the market near me that caters mostly to Hispanics.

Unlike butter and margarine, both of which contain some water, lard does not. That means you can make a direct replacement of the oil in the Lehmann dough formulation with the lard. You will have to decide how much lard you want to use from a baker's percent standpoint, and also how much dough you want to make. The amount of dough should be enough for your hand cranked bread maker to handle. That is, it can't be too little and it can't be too much.

I know for a fact that Tom Lehmann has used lard in a pizza dough. In fact, I remembered that he discussed the subject of lard recently at the PMQ Think Tank. I did a search and found his posts in the thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10010&p=69404&hilit=#p69366. I believe that the lard you found is perhaps of the better form that Tom discusses in his PMQTT posts even though it is a U.S. product. For example, I did not see any mention of deodorizers in the ingredients list you posted.

It would also not be unprecedented to use lard in a NY style dough. I recall reading that Sbarro used lard many years ago, and I tried it out myself but using the solid lard form.

Since the lard product you found has salt in it, you might want to reduce the salt in the Lehmann dough formulation to compensate. I couldn't read the rest of the label you showed in the photo but there must be a weight-volume statement and also portion size and number of portions in the container and also an amount of sodium per serving.

Peter

Peter,

It’s good to know that I can make a direct replacement with the Manteca Pura in the Lehmann dough. Luckily, I was able to find the Manteca Pura in my area.  I had to laugh at some of the comments published in the little booklet that came with the Universal Bread Maker.  Some of them were: Any flour that will make a good bread by hand, will make better bread in the “Universal.”  Any yeast that makes good bread by hand will make better bread in the “Universal.”  Any recipe that will make good bread by hand will make better bread in the “Universal.”  Careful measuring and thorough kneading insure good homemade bread.  The “Universal” is simply an easier, quicker and cleaner way of doing the work.  The “Universal” does the Mixing and Kneading of dough in Three Minutes.  The dough is not touched by the hands at all.  Twenty to thirty minutes of the work of hand Kneading is done in Three Minutes and The Kneading is done scientifically, and the bread is much better than when Kneaded by hand.  The one Important Thing: The proper proportions for bread making are one quart of liquids to three quarts of sifted flour measured accurately.  Greater accuracy can be had by weighing the flour, using one quart of liquids to three pounds of flour.  All liquids should be poured in first.  Then put in all the flour at once.  To Mix and Knead the Bread” Having put in all the ingredients, as directed, turn the crank three minutes, or, until the dough is rolled around the kneading rod, in a smooth, compact ball, Cover and set the while machine away for the bread rise.  After rising, turn the crank until the dough forms a ball about the kneader again.  Loosen the cross piece and lift it, and the kneader, and the dough upon it, out of the pail all together.  Push the dough off the knead-ing rod, cut up and put into the baking tins.  Most of these statements sound something like the drill on making dough here on the forum, especially measuring the ingredients correctly.  

As for the amounts of bread to be made in the Universal it says the No. 4 “Universal” has a capacity of from two to six loaves of bread.  It also tells about using a sponge.  One of the basic recipes for bread in the booklet says” Milk and Water Bread: 4 loaves.  1 pint scaled milk, 1 cake compressed yeast, 2 teaspoons salt, 1 pint warm water, 1 tablespoon lard 1 tablespoon butter, 1 tablespoon sugar, 3 quarts of flour.  I am not going to try to make bread at this time, but make the Lehmann dough, so how will I know exactly how much flour and water I will need to use for the “Universal” Bread Maker for it to work properly?  

Thanks for the link from Tom Lehmann about using lard in dough.  I am anxious to try the Manteca Pura out to see if it does improve the flavor of the Lehmann dough.  I didn’t see anything on the label of the Manteca Pura that indicates there are any deodorizers in the Manteca Pura I bought.  The Nutrition Facts on the side label you couldn’t see say: Total Fat: 14 grams, Saturated Fat 6 grams, Cholestrol 15mg., Sodium 5 mg.,  total carbohydrate 0 gram, and the rest is all 0. Serving size 1 TBSP (14 g) Serving per container About 49  From these Nutrition Facts how to I need to adjust the salt in the Lehmann dough? Is there anything else you need from the side label?  Since it isn’t unprecedented to use lard in a NY style dough like you did for your Sbarro dough, how did you like the taste of the crust using lard?  

Hopefully I will be able to come up with a good formula for the Lehmann dough using the Manteca Pura, and the Universal.  

Norma

[norma427]

Not exactly the Bosch Universal but universal indeed!
Norma- thanks for the flash Back ! I remember my mother having that exact same unit! the locking latch one end and the hooks over the rim on the other end. I cant remember what came out of it? But I know I was very curious and futzed with it quite a bit. Have fun cant wait to see it in action!
John

John,

I agree, the Universal is nothing like the Bosch Universal.   It was great to hear about how you remember your mother having the exact same unit.   I guess the locking latch is to keep the dough from forming a skin on the dough.  I enjoyed hearing how you were curious and futzed quite a bit with the Universal Bread Maker.  Do you remember how the bread turned out!  Thanks for saying to have fun with this old Universal.  I also have a real old wood dough box and old scales with weights.  Maybe at some point in time I also will try them out for making dough.  I really like old things and how people must have done thing in the past.  At least most of the older things are made better than some of the newer things we buy today. There was integrity in making things years ago. Now things are mostly mass produced.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma and Peter, For fun I'll take my camera manana for my walk and take some pictures of the process of making Manteca here. Trust me you can smell it a block away. At least that's what I think they are doing..........
Don

Don,

I would enjoy if you took your camera with you and took pictures of the process of making Manteca in Mexico.  How do they make it?  I would think if it is made from the skin of a pig, it would be stinky.  I haven’t opened my container of Manteca yet, but the lady at the Mexican store told me to put it into the refrigerator after it is opened.  She did speak mostly Spanish, so I had a hard time explaining to her what I wanted to buy and she had a hard time understanding me.  Does the Manteca smell stinky when it is opened? 

Thanks for saying you will take pictures of the process of making Manteca.  Sounds like fun!

Norma

[buceriasdon]

As promised some pictures of a local butcher making lard, manteca in Spanish. I got a bonus today, they were making manteca and manteca mejor(means best), a lard made from the better fat of the pig. When I asked about manteca puro the butcher said he does not make it, I suspect manteca puro is processed further, perhaps it is a pressing process using lard. They use large stainless pans with huge high pressure burners to heat the water, place the pig parts in and boil until the fat seperates. The chitlins are sold of course and Mexicans love them with hot sauce. To me the smell is overpowering, I took the pictures as quickly as possible. I included a pic of the ten inch burner they use with no regulator.
Don

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I used the information you provided to come up with a plan of action for your Lehmann lard-based dough prepared in the Universal Bread Maker (UBM).

First, I used the manteca nutrition facts you posted to determine the weight of one teaspoon of the manteca. That calculation was to see if it is close enough to use the lard entry in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. For your manteca, I got 0.16461 ounces for a teaspoon. The value used in the dough calculating tool for lard is 0.15285 ounces for a single teaspoon. The two values are close enough in my opinion to use the value for the lard built into the expanded dough calculating tool. As a practical matter, you perhaps won't be able to measure out the differences when using standard measuring spoons.

You indicated that the minimum amount of dough for the UBM is two loaves of bread. You didn't indicate any recommended weight of a loaf of bread, or the amount of dough to make same, so I used the recipe you mentioned for four loaves of bread, using milk, etc., and converted the ingredients in that recipe to weights. Doing this, I got an estimated dough batch weight of around 88 ounces for four loaves of bread. For half of that dough batch weight, which is the minimum batch size for your UBM, we get 44 ounces. That amount of dough would permit you to make two roughly 16" pizzas, with each dough ball weighing about 22 ounces. The actual dough ball weight might be a bit less if there is some dough loss using the UBM. Of course, you can scale the dough ball weight down to around 21 ounces if that is a suitable weight for your purposes, or you can use any other dough ball weight and corresponding pizza size. That is entirely up to you.

So, for your lard-based Lehmann NY style dough, I would use the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool with 44 ounces as the target dough ball weight. I would use whatever percent of lard you would like to use for the experiment, along with whatever set of baker's percents you would like to use for the other ingredients (which will give you the flour and water weights). In order to get enough lard in the dough to be noticeable in the final crust and allow you to make a judgment as to its value in a pizza crust, you might consider using 3%, or maybe even a bit more. I will leave that to your discretion.

I described the Sbarro pizza that I made using lard at Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg40413.html#msg40413. In my case, as I noted in the above post, I did not perceive a great benefit from using the lard. However, in my case, I also used barley malt syrup that might have competed with the lard in some way, although I wonder how much flavor a commercial lard as made in the U.S. actually adds to a pizza crust.

I look forward to your results.

Peter

[norma427]

As promised some pictures of a local butcher making lard, manteca in Spanish. I got a bonus today, they were making manteca and manteca mejor(means best), a lard made from the better fat of the pig. When I asked about manteca puro the butcher said he does not make it, I suspect manteca puro is processed further, perhaps it is a pressing process using lard. They use large stainless pans with huge high pressure burners to heat the water, place the pig parts in and boil until the fat seperates. The chitlins are sold of course and Mexicans love them with hot sauce. To me the smell is overpowering, I took the pictures as quickly as possible. I included a pic of the ten inch burner they use with no regulator.
Don

Don,

Wow, thanks so much for taking the pictures and explaining how Manteca or manteca mejor is made.  I never knew how it was made before. I didn’t even know about Manteca before this thread. I see in your pictures the Manteca in made right out in the open.  That also is interesting because I don’t believe in the US it would be legal to make it right out in the open, but I could be wrong.  I remember the times I visited Mexico with my husband and we went to two different farmer’s markets in Cancun, Mexico, the farmer’s markets had meat, dead chickens and other products just out in the open with no kind of refrigeration.   I wondered how sanitary that was and why more people didn’t get sick in Mexico from open aired markets like I saw.

I throughly enjoyed seeing the whole process and the seeing the 10 inch burner with no regulator.  I never ate chitlins before.  Do you know what they taste like?  Did you also get some fresh Manteca to try in pizza dough?  I would imagine the fresh Manteca would be better than mine.  What were they making inside the building behind the two men? 

Thanks again,

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I used the information you provided to come up with a plan of action for your Lehmann lard-based dough prepared in the Universal Bread Maker (UBM).

First, I used the manteca nutrition facts you posted to determine the weight of one teaspoon of the manteca. That calculation was to see if it is close enough to use the lard entry in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. For your manteca, I got 0.16461 ounces for a teaspoon. The value used in the dough calculating tool for lard is 0.15285 ounces for a single teaspoon. The two values are close enough in my opinion to use the value for the lard built into the expanded dough calculating tool. As a practical matter, you perhaps won't be able to measure out the differences when using standard measuring spoons.

You indicated that the minimum amount of dough for the UBM is two loaves of bread. You didn't indicate any recommended weight of a loaf of bread, or the amount of dough to make same, so I used the recipe you mentioned for four loaves of bread, using milk, etc., and converted the ingredients in that recipe to weights. Doing this, I got an estimated dough batch weight of around 88 ounces for four loaves of bread. For half of that dough batch weight, which is the minimum batch size for your UBM, we get 44 ounces. That amount of dough would permit you to make two roughly 16" pizzas, with each dough ball weighing about 22 ounces. The actual dough ball weight might be a bit less if there is some dough loss using the UBM. Of course, you can scale the dough ball weight down to around 21 ounces if that is a suitable weight for your purposes, or you can use any other dough ball weight and corresponding pizza size. That is entirely up to you.

So, for your lard-based Lehmann NY style dough, I would use the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool with 44 ounces as the target dough ball weight. I would use whatever percent of lard you would like to use for the experiment, along with whatever set of baker's percents you would like to use for the other ingredients (which will give you the flour and water weights). In order to get enough lard in the dough to be noticeable in the final crust and allow you to make a judgment as to its value in a pizza crust, you might consider using 3%, or maybe even a bit more. I will leave that to your discretion.

I described the Sbarro pizza that I made using lard at Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg40413.html#msg40413. In my case, as I noted in the above post, I did not perceive a great benefit from using the lard. However, in my case, I also used barley malt syrup that might have competed with the lard in some way, although I wonder how much flavor a commercial lard as made in the U.S. actually adds to a pizza crust.

I look forward to your results.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for coming up with a plan of action for my Lehmann lard-based dough that I am going to prepare in the UBM. 

I had no idea of the weight of the finished bread products, (in the booklet) or didn’t know how do the calculations for the amount of dough since it was in volume measurements.  Thanks for converting the ingredients in the recipe I provided to weights.  It sounds like 3% or more lard is a lot for the Lehmann dough, but I will use 3% or more.  I also will use the dough weight option on the expanded dough calculating tool. 

I did do a forum search this morning to see where you made a Sbarro’s mall clone formulation with lard. I didn’t see anything about you mentioning about if the lard did make a difference in the taste of the crust.  Maybe the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup did do something with the lard or you might be right about how a commercial lard made in the US would contribute to the taste of any pizza crust. I don’t know how the manteca will preform in the Lehmann dough, but it will be interesting to find out.  I will make the dough on Sunday and use the 2 doughs on Tuesday.

Norma

[buceriasdon]

One of the things I don't care for about Mexican's cooking is the their overcooking needed to make the meat safe. Shoe leather. I have commented numerous times about how even the big supermarkets here set out meat ALL day on tables. I live a quarter of a block from the only wood fired pizza oven in this town and toppings and dough balls sit out uncovered for the day. I realize at high temperatures the toppings should become sterile but it still rankles me. Flies landing all day on them,ech. They roll the dough out and then trim the edge with a template to make them round. Bland and totally lacking in character, truly sad. Restaurant owned by an Italian and the oven was built by an Italian, big deal.
Ok, back on topic after venting. Manteca is just the Spanish word for lard. Mejor means best, so the butcher makes and sells two grades of lard. Manteca puro is simply refined lard and I have idea how it remains a liquid. The photo shows the glass front counter meat is stored in to be sold.
Don

Don,

Wow, thanks so much for taking the pictures and explaining how Manteca or manteca mejor is made.  I never knew how it was made before. I didn’t even know about Manteca before this thread. I see in your pictures the Manteca in made right out in the open.  That also is interesting because I don’t believe in the US it would be legal to make it right out in the open, but I could be wrong.  I remember the times I visited Mexico with my husband and we went to two different farmer’s markets in Cancun, Mexico, the farmer’s markets had meat, dead chickens and other products just out in the open with no kind of refrigeration.   I wondered how sanitary that was and why more people didn’t get sick in Mexico from open aired markets like I saw.

I throughly enjoyed seeing the whole process and the seeing the 10 inch burner with no regulator.  I never ate chitlins before.  Do you know what they taste like?  Did you also get some fresh Manteca to try in pizza dough?  I would imagine the fresh Manteca would be better than mine.  What were they making inside the building behind the two men? 

Thanks again,

Norma

[norma427]

Don,

I never thought about how the meat needs to be overcooked in Mexico, because it does sit out.   The flies landing on the toppings sounds gross to me too.    Interesting to hear how lacking in character the pizzas are even if the restaurant is owned by Italians.  

Thanks for educating me more on what Manteca is and what the Mejor means.  I also like to learn anything new.  I don’t know how my Manteca stays liquid.

This is off-topic too, but I would love to be able to visit Mexico again.  I think it is a beautiful country. These are a few pictures from the one market we visited in Mexico and how the meat sits out in the heat, if anyone is interested.  The second to last picture was a water spout that also was interesting to me.  It did come much closer.  

Norma