Bread Flour vs All Purpose: whats the ratio difference?

[Darth Pizza]

i used the search function and read up on the differences between the two in a post
(King Arthur Flour: All Purpose or Bread flour?) but it didnt have the answer i need.
i just came back from a supermarket --- they had 9 different flour brands... ALL ALL PURPOSE!
so i grabbed King Arthur All-Purpose.
but i was wondering the ratio difference for recipes that use Bread flour.
like if a recipe requires 2 cups of Bread, how much All-pupose should i use?
thankx

[Lespaul20]

I don't think you can simply substitute All Purpose for Bread Flour. The primary difference I know of is protein content which has an effect on the final product.

[Darth Pizza]

i know, and i know the flavor is gonna be different. just was thinking there is a ratio that can be applied to bread dough recipes. no big deal. ill find some bread dough this week when i got time...

[Jet_deck]

Think about Kool-Aid.  If you make a batch 2 cups short on water, it will taste a certain way.  You are asking if you can substitute a batch made with all the water to make it taste the same.  I am sure you get the point, but this is what came to mind.

[Jackie Tran]

You can either use more flour or less water.  I don't know the exact percentage ratio for increasing the flour amount, but personally I would use the same amout of AP flour and then cut the hydration ratio down by 2-3%.  

You may also have to increase your kneading time by a few minutes and you should get very similar results with slightly less chew.  I would also cut back the oil by 1% if using AP instead of BF if the recipe calls for oil.   Give it a try, that's what I'd do.

[Pete-zza]

Darth Pizza,

My thinking is exactly the same as Chau (Jackie Tran) stated the matter. Not all dough recipes can tolerate substitution of one flour for another without making changes somewhere along the line. An example might be substituting 00 flour for another flour for a NY style dough. It might take a lot of work to make that switch and you might not be happy with the results. The best approach in my opinion is to find a good, workable dough recipe using whatever flour you have on hand, or one very similar to it, rather than to try to reconstruct another recipe to use your flour.

Peter

[Darth Pizza]

thanks, ill try the less oil tip.
Pete za, how is 00 flour used for NY style? from what ive read, 00 flour is used for classic italian pizzas. like an authentic margherta or marinara..

[Jackie Tran]

Darth - If you are going to be substituting AP for BF, you need to drop the hydration first then cut the oil or both. 

Also I'm not sure if there are operators using straight 00 for NY pizza, but Dom of Di Fara uses 2/3 00 1/3 BF I believe.  Peter can correct me if I'm wrong here, as my memory gets a bit shady. 

[Darth Pizza]

Drop the hydration? what does that mean? use less water? anyway, i ran into this page, and they actually reccomend AP flour for thin crust pizza made in an oven at home: some points seem valid. but 1/4 cup of olive oil for 10oz of flour sounds retarded. so i dont know how much creedence id give cooks illustrated on this recipe.
http://www.cookography.com/2007/thin-crust-pizza
and here
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18577/all-purpose-flour-vs-bread-flour-pizza

[Pete-zza]

Pete za, how is 00 flour used for NY style? from what ive read, 00 flour is used for classic italian pizzas. like an authentic margherta or marinara..

Darth Pizza,

As a practical matter, and speaking strictly from the standpoint of authenticity, there is no such thing as a classic NYC style that uses 100% 00 flour. However, that doesn't stop people from trying. As Chau mentioned, Dom DeMarco at DiFara's makes a style that is considered a NY style that uses a blend of 00 flour and high-gluten flour, in a 75/25 ratio, by volume.

Peter

[PizzaHog]

 

Drop the hydration? what does that mean? use less water?

Yes, using AP flour relative to BF.  As the protein level increases in flour, more water can be absorbed.  So everything else being equal, if using a formula designed for BF, one would then use less water when substiuting AP flour.  Hydration refers to the water used, commonly expressed in %, using bakers percentages.  From the glossary:

BAKER'S PERCENTS (OR PERCENTAGES): A mathematical tool and "language" used by bakers to analyze recipes and to scale or re-size recipes up or down in quantity. It is a weight-based system in which the percentage of each ingredient is stated in relation to the weight of the flour, which always has a baker's percent of 100%. In the context of pizza dough production, baker's percents can be used to determine the quantities of ingredients required to make any dough batch size or number of pizzas of any given size and crust thickness.

HYDRATION: A term that refers to the capacity of flour to absorb water. Hydration is usually stated as a baker's percent, or ratio, that is equal to the weight of water divided by the weight of flour used in a recipe. Different flours have different capacities to absorb water, with high-protein flours having higher hydration capacities than lower protein flours.

The order of common flour types found in supermarkets in the US, ranked from least to most protein content:
Pastry
All purpose
Bread
High protein/high gluten (may not be available)
I know of no real conversion factor or ratio between flours. 
Good Luck
Hog

[buceriasdon]

I've used the Cooks Illustrated recipe in the past and find it works well. In fact I stole, er.....I mean I creatively borrowed the idea of the kitchen film for rolling for my extreme stretch and fold experiments that I use today for 75+% doughs using all purpose flour. The recipe does make for a somewhat sticky dough,62% water to AP flour ratio plus the 1/4C oil, hence the reason to use kitchen film for the rolling without having to use a lot of bench flour. I will say I do now use 2 tablespoons oil.
Don


the hydration? what does that mean? use less water? anyway, i ran into this page, and they actually reccomend AP flour for thin crust pizza made in an oven at home: some points seem valid. but 1/4 cup of olive oil for 10oz of flour sounds retarded. so i don't know how much credence id give cooks illustrated on this recipe.
http://www.cookography.com/2007/thin-crust-pizza
and here
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18577/all-purpose-flour-vs-bread-flour-pizza
[/quote]

[Darth Pizza]

ok thanks everyone. no need for any more info. im gonna just get some bread flour. but before i do, i will make some dough & pizzas with AP flour, then use recipes here with bread flour and compare. gonna start off with this one because the reviews state that it came out great with AP flour, and it uses an exact package of Dry active yeast which is what i bought yesterday.
New York Style Pizza Dough
http://americanfood.about.com/od/pizzainsideandout/r/nypd.htm

A basic "Big Apple" pizza dough recipe. This pizza dough is built for that signature thin-crust, "fold-able" slice New York is famous for.

Yields: 1 large or 2 small pizzas
Ingredients:
•   2 1/4 teaspoon (1 package) instant dry active yeast
•   1 cup warm water (not hot!)
•   1/2 tablespoon sugar
•   3 cups bread flour, or as needed
•   2 tablespoon olive oil
•   1 1/2 teaspoon salt

thanks again, ill post pics on results in a day or 2.