Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday

[norma427]

Norma,

I perhaps should have said that you may have to do things with the Bisquick Original mix to make a dough and pizza that you would consider worthy. If you do a Google search, you will find all kinds of pizzas made with the Bisquick Original mix. What I read when I did such a search I didn't find particularly inspiring.

Peter

Peter,

I think I know what you meant, when you posted that I would have to do things with the Original Bisquick mix to make a pizza I or other members think would be worthy of being called a pizza.  I just find it interesting that maybe a pizza could be made out of the Original Bisquick mix.  I will do a Google search in the next few days about using the Original Bisquick mix for pizza.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

Do you think if I would add 2.7%, Buttermilk,1.5%,  Salt,1.0%,  Dextrose, 0.75% (regular sugar), Egg (dried), 0.25%,  Soy flour (from your numbers referenced before), some extra sugar,  soybean oil and salt to the regular Original Bisquick mix, in combination with your “goody bag”, that would work to try and make a pizza?

I am not good at figuring out the numbers, but just wanted to know if you think it would work.

I did Google pizzas made from the Original Bisquick mix and although some of them, from really old recipes, did look okay, they didn’t really appeal to me.  I know I have a really old Bisquick recipe booklet in my shed somewhere, along with other really old recipe books, but I have no idea of where I have those books or booklets stored in a box.  I don’t think the Original Bisquick booklet has any pizza recipes though.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

When a product like the Bisquick Original mix contains only flour, partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil, leavening (baking powder), dextrose (sugar) and salt, there are endless ways of modifying that combination to make other products. So, what you are striving for becomes important. For example, do you want to come up with a mix like the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix, or possibly one like the mix that you made using the Buttermilk Bisquick mix with the "goody bag", or possibly something else different from those two examples?

But, whatever the answer, to come up with the proper numbers, I believe that you have to have at least a general idea as to the composition of the Bisquick Original mix from a baker's percent standpoint. Once that is known, then you have a much better shot at coming up with the proper set of numbers. Also, I noticed from the General Mills website that the Bisquick Original mix comes in a 40-ounce box. So, some scaling down of the amount to use will be necessary no matter what application you decide on.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

To my last post, I might add that there are two Bisquick "Original" mixes, one in a 40-ounce box and another in a 5.5-ounce pouch. At first, I thought they were the same product but in different size packages. However, when I looked at the Nutrition Facts for the two products, I saw that one (the pouch product) had about a third more total fat per serving and more sodium per serving. This confused me, so I called General Mills and spoke with a very nice lady who told me that the two products were not the same. The 40-ounce Original product is an "Original Pancake and Baking Mix", whereas the 5,5-ounce product is just an "Original All-Purpose Baking Mix". They are different and the pouch does indeed have more fat and sodium per serving. The ingredients lists for the two products are identical, which is also what originally confused me. I was not able to find the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix in a pouch size, which might be more convenient for your purposes, albeit more expensive on a unit basis.

Which of the above products would you plan to use?

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I have the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, that is 40 oz. (2 LB. 8 OZ) 1.13 kg.  I bought it to make shortcake for strawberries I had bought at market this past Tuesday.  This is the product I would like to possibly make into a pizza, in combination with other ingredients, if possible.  I would like to make something like the Buttermilk “Sukie” pizza if it can be made.  

Thanks for calling General Mills and talking to the nice lady that told you about the two products.  I never knew there was a product in a pouch before.  At least I never saw it at a grocery store near me.  

This is what the shortcake looked like from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  It sure doesn’t look anything like a pizza.

Pictures below

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I would like to make something like the Buttermilk “Sukie” pizza if it can be made.  

Norma,

To do what you would like to do, and hopefully to do it right, I estimate that it would take me several multiples of the effort that I put into the last exercise. I would first have to try to decipher the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to get the ingredient quantities and baker's percents, adapt it by adding more of the same ingredients and other ingredients to get something equivalent to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and a final quantity of that mix, scale the results down to a specific total mix weight, and then decide what goes into the "goody bag" other than the items previously used, along with their baker's percents. There may also be obstacles that I do not now know exist.

You might try the approach you proposed. I perhaps could do some work to see if it will work but I would rather take only one bite at the apple.

This afternoon, while I was at a local supermarket that carries just about everything, I checked the Bisquick products that they carry. They only carry the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix (in a couple box sizes), a heart healthy version, and a gluten-free version. I did not see any pouches for the biscuit mix or any Betty Crocker Pizza Crust. I checked some of the recipes on the boxes of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and saw that they require the addition of one of more of milk, eggs, butter or margarine. That is what makes it difficult to do what you would like to do. The Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix is too basic. By contrast, the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is entirely self-contained with everything in it that is needed to make biscuits other than the water. I realize that it would be nice just to scoop some of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix out of a large box and add things to it to make a good pizza, but, regrettably, to get to that point is not exactly a walk in the park.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

To do what you would like to do, and hopefully to do it right, I estimate that it would take me several multiples of the effort that I put into the last exercise. I would first have to try to decipher the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to get the ingredient quantities and baker's percents, adapt it by adding more of the same ingredients and other ingredients to get something equivalent to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and a final quantity of that mix, scale the results down to a specific total mix weight, and then decide what goes into the "goody bag" other than the items previously used, along with their baker's percents. There may also be obstacles that I do not now know exist.

You might try the approach you proposed. I perhaps could do some work to see if it will work but I would rather take only one bite at the apple.

This afternoon, while I was at a local supermarket that carries just about everything, I checked the Bisquick products that they carry. They only carry the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix (in a couple box sizes), a heart healthy version, and a gluten-free version. I did not see any pouches for the biscuit mix or any Betty Crocker Pizza Crust. I checked some of the recipes on the boxes of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and saw that they require the addition of one of more of milk, eggs, butter or margarine. That is what makes it difficult to do what you would like to do. The Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix is too basic. By contrast, the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is entirely self-contained with everything in it that is needed to make biscuits other than the water. I realize that it would be nice just to scoop some of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix out of a large box and add things to it to make a good pizza, but, regrettably, to get to that point is not exactly a walk in the park.

Peter

Peter,

You have done enough work on the buttermilk biscuit “Sukie” pizza.  That turned out great!  I will do what I have proposed to see if it works out, with the Bisquick Original Baking mix.  I can understand you always like to be precise.

Since you can’t find any of the Bisquick biscuit mixes and Betty Crocker pizza mixes, at a supermarket that just about carries anything, it makes me wonder just how many stores do carry those products.  I did see the Heart Healthy version and the Gluten-free version of Bisquick at my supermarket, too.  I know this won’t be a walk in the park, but I since I like to experiment, I will try out my version.  I can understand the Bisquick Original baking mix is too basic. 

Since I also plan on using the Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix too this coming Tuesday, with your "goody bag",  we can just wait and see what happens.  I know the Original Bisquick and the Buttermilk biscuit mix aren’t the same, but they feel and look the same.   

Norma 

[norma427]

This is my formula for the pizza that is going to be made with the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix.
 
16" pizza
205 grams of Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix
4.59 grams dried buttermilk powder
1.28 grams dried whole egg
.43 grams soy flour
1 teaspoon soybean oil
added “goody bag” from “Sukie” pizza

If anyone sees anything wrong with the way I propose to  make the attempt with the “Sukie” dough, let me know. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Judging from what appears to be a high sodium content in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, it is possible that the mix contains higher than normal levels of leavening and salt--higher than the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix that you used for your last pizza with the "goody bag". It is hard to say for sure because the leavening in the mix is not the same as the Clabber Girl baking powder and may have a higher sodium content than the Clabber Girl product. That said, there could well be a logical basis for higher levels of at least the salt. Remember that one using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix may end up adding eggs and milk to the mix such that the salt is spread over the entire finished product. I have not been able to determine the actual leavening content of the mix, but you might think about reducing the amount of the Clabber Girl baking powder in the "goody bag" that you plan to use. With the yeast in the final mix and using the fairly hot water, together with a reasonable period of fermentation, you may not need as much baking powder.

I have some other thoughts on your formulation but I'd rather that you proceed in accordance with the plan that you laid out. Your results might help answer some unanswered questions and possibly confirm what I believe the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to be. I did check out your math, and the numbers add up to around 592 grams. So that weight should work out fine for a 16" pizza. It will be interesting to see what you get. What you are essentially trying to do is to convert a mix intended to make things like pancakes to something to make biscuits and then transform that to something that can be used to make pizza. From pancakes to biscuits to pizza. These are all unnatural acts . It must be something in the Pennsylvania water.

FYI, I went to another store this afternoon to check out the available Bisquick products. Whereas the last store I went to the other day caters to a high income demographic, where the people appear to be disinclined to make pizza at home from boxed mixes or pouches, the store I went to today caters to a low income demographic, with a predominantly Hispanic clientele. Apparently the customers of that store don't bake pizzas either. There were far fewer Bisquick products in that store than the other, and none whatsoever in pouches. I saw many pancake mixes whose labels I scrutinized, and found very interesting and informative, but none were like the Bisquick products. There is one store left for me to check out, a Kroger store, that perhaps fits in the middle of the two other stores.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I didn’t see you had posted because I was busy, but I will answer you post in my next post.  I just came on to post this.  

Peter and anyone that is interested,

I decided today, I was curious and wanted to see if the formula I had proposed in my last post would work, so I thought I would give it a try today, after I returned from market.

Before anyone tries the “Sukie” pizza, and before I go further with this experiment with the “Sukie” pizza, I want to let everyone know, I didn’t use KABF with the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix.  I decided today after I was finished at market, to mix a dough as I had proposed in my last post. I did mix the dough with the method I had proposed and the dough came together nicely and this time I had to add 12 grams of extra water, to make the dough seem like Tuesday.  I don’t know if that was because I had used the extra, buttermilk, soy flour and dried (eggs whites), or not.  I will get to the dried eggs whites later.  When I went to mix what I thought was the KABF, I thought about where I had purchased that flour.  It was at the Country Store.  I then remembered the mix-up before about how their flours are labeled.  I decided to call the Country Store to see really what kind of flour I had since it isn’t labeled bread flour on the label.  I had thought when I purchased the KA flour awhile ago, I was getting bread flour, but now remember the mix-up in how their flours are labeled.  I first got the owner of the Country Store, and she said I could use the King Arthur flour for either All-purpose or Bread flour.  I said I didn’t think so, and I specifically need KABF.  She then went and talked to Jamey, who is the man that orders the products for the Country Store.  He said it also could be used for anything.  I then asked if they purchased the KA flour at C.O. Nolt & Sons, and they said no, they purchased the King Arthur flour at Dutch Valley and it has 4 grams of protein.  I then inquired some more and they said the flour was Special flour by King Arthur.  I think now the mystery is solved, and the flour is King Arthur Special Flour.  They still didn’t know specifically what kind of flour they were selling, but I went to Dutch Valley’s website and this is what I think the Country Store is selling. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/154deaee-d1ca-4c19-8a3e-6279458e93be

http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/images/catimages/142050.pdf

I don’t really know what protein this flour is, but maybe that is why I had such good results.  I don’t want anyone to try what I did and then not have the results I did.  Would using this flour give me better results with the “Sukie” pizza?

Back to what I thought I had at home being dried whole eggs.  When I went to get what I thought was a bag of dried whole eggs out of the cupboard the bag was Egg White Solids.  I did mix it into the mix I am trying today.  The Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, was mixed in with the sweet buttermilk, egg white solids, and soy flour, plus the “goody bag”.  I also added another 3/4 teaspoon of buttermilk, to the above mix, because I had no idea how the egg white solids and dried whole eggs were different.

Sorry, if I created confusion.  

Picture of the dough now mixed and picture of the products I have at home to make this pizza today, especially the KA flour.

Norma

[norma427]

now I even forgot to post the pictures!..lol

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The King Arthur Special flour and the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) are the same flour. The Special name is used for the foodservice version of the retail KABF product. If you look at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html, you can tell that the Special flour is the same as the KABF because the protein content is 12.7%.

It perhaps was a good idea to increase the amount of buttermilk powder. I had earlier concluded that you were on the low side.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I didn’t know the KA Special flour and the KABF were the same. 

To follow up on your post, I did add everything I had proposed, but added extra sweet buttermilk and also extra water, as you already saw, but I am not writing this post over again.  I didn’t add hot water, but regular room temperature water.  I can see the “new dough” is rising faster than before.  It has only been about 1 hr. 20 minutes since I mixed the dough and it looks like it is fermenting faster, but at least it feels like dough.  You are probably right about not adding as much of the Clabber Girl baking powder.  I tasted it and it also tastes like dough, but with a Bisquick twist.

I am curious about what you thoughts are now about my formulation, other than the buttermilk now. You might as well tell me now, because the dough is already mixed.  At least my math is making a 16" pizza or a whatchamacallit.  I know there must be something in the water here in Pa.,  that keeps making me do some dumb stuff.

It is interesting that you checked out another store today to see if you could find the Bisquick Buttermilk pouches or Betty Crocker pizza mixes.  It still makes me wonder just how many people use those pouches for even biscuits.

We will see if a pancake turned into a biscuit, can turn into a pizza later tonight.

Norma

[norma427]

Well, here is what the whatchamacallit dough looks like after two hours.    Does anyone think it is time to ball the dough?

Norma

[norma427]

Well..the dough is balled now. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Before I comment on your dough formulation, let me bring you up to date on some matters that relate to the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix.

I spent a lot of time yesterday trying to decipher the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. I think what complicated matters is that I was having trouble finding publicly available information that matched the Nutrition Facts for the mix. I concluded that it was perhaps likely that GM uses ingredients made especially for them with specific characteristics that are not reflected in the publicly available data at SelfNutritionFacts and similar sources. After more research, I finally came up with a set of baker's percents that appeared to me to be credible. It then hit me that the unit that makes the Bisquick products is a part of General Mills. So, thinking that the Bisquick unit was most likely using a GM flour, I researched all of the bleached cake flours that GM sells. One that looked promising is the Pureasnow cake flour. First thing this morning, I sent an email to Tom Huff at GM in which I asked him what flours that GM sells might be most suitable to make pancakes. I also asked him if he had a formulation that he could share with me. I told him that I was looking at something that could be used to make a mix that was like the Bisquick mix. I did not expect that he would give me the Bisquick formulation but I wanted to get an idea as to possible baker's percents.

This afternoon, I received the following reply from Tim:

Pancake mixes could use anything from a soft wheat cake or pastry flour up to a hard wheat all-purpose flour, or a blend of these flours.  A lot depends upon the eating quality and texture desired. 
 
Attached is an old formula I had on hand using a cake flour.

The pancake formulation had the following baker's percents (I put the numbers in the same order as the Bisquick mix):

100%, Puresnow cake flour
10%, Melted butter
3.5%, Baking powder
10%, Sugar
1.7%, Salt

The formulation also includes milk and eggs, both of which contribute fat to the total recipe, but I left them out in my summary above so that the numbers would track with the formulation for the Bisquick Original mix. My tentative formulation for the Bisquick Original mix is different from the above but I believe that it is still credible when shortening (partially hydrogenated soy and/or cottonseed oil) is substituted for the butter in the proper quantity and sugar is replaced by dextrose. The 10% figure listed above for the sugar is higher than what I have seen in the pancake recipes I reviewed. It clearly does not fall in the proper place in the pecking order for the ingredients in the Bisquick Original mix.

An interesting sidenote is that the recipe that Tim gave me had an example based on using 32 ounces of flour. When I added up the weights of all of the ingredients in the formulation summarized above, I got a weight of 39.6 ounces. A standard box of the Bisquick Original mix is 40 ounces. In my formulation, I also ended up with 32 ounces of flour.

After settling on my formulation for the Bisquick Original mix, I tried to adapt it to the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix. My tentative formulation showed that there was less fat than what is used in the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix--about 8% less. That discrepancy could be fixed by adding more shortening or, as an alternative, some oil, as you proposed to do (although I think you may be shy on the amount). I also concluded that you were perhaps shy on the amount of buttermilk powder, the dried egg and the soy flour. However, these ingredients are so far down the list in terms of baker's percent, any deficiency in these ingredients might not even be missed. As noted earlier, I suspected that the amount of baking powder was greater than normal, or at least greater than what I believe is used in the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix. Even then, "normal" is somewhat relative. In reviewing pancake recipes, I found a fairly wide range of use of baking powder. In fact, in one of the recipes that I saw on the back of a box of Bisquick Original mix it says to add more baking powder to get super fluffy pancakes.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

As part of my research on the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, I tried to find more information on dextrose. When I spoke with the lady at GM yesterday, I specifically asked her what role the dextrose played in their Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix. She mentioned the sweetness factor but not in relation to yeast fermentation. When I suggested that the dextrose, as a simple sugar, was immediately available for use by the yeast, whereas sucrose would take a long time to be broken down to simple sugars, she said that it was also her understanding that yeast can only use simple sugars as food. Today, I found the following from an article on dextrose:

Fermentability
Because it is a monosaccharide, dextrose is the ideal carbohydrate source for yeast fermentation in baking and brewing. The fermentation begins immediately and proceeds rapidly. Dextrose provides energy to the cell to produce many by-products in addition to carbodioxide and ethanol.

and  

Maillard reaction
The classic browning in food systems is due to the interaction of reducing sugars and acidified protein compounds. Due to its active aldehyde groups, dextrose is a powerful reducing sugar and promotes rapid buildup of browning.

and

Sweetness control
With its pleasant, clean and sweet, cooling taste, dextrose has been used for years as a sweetener in a wide range of food applications. Dextrose is one of the sweetest of the starch derived sugars. On a scale on which sucrose is assigned a sweetness value of 100, dextrose is rated at 75.

I think the above helps explain why you got such good fermentation activity and crust coloration with the Sukie pizza you made. Hopefully, there is enough dextrose in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to do the same for the pizza you will soon be making.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

You really did do a lot of research yesterday.  Good to hear you did figure out since Biqsuick is a part of General Mills they would be using a General Mills flour.  Interesting to hear how you did come up with a formula for the Bisquick Original mix.  Hopefully since there is less fat in the Bisquick Original mix, than the Bisquick buttermilk mix, the pizza will turn out okay. 

I don’t know where my mind is today, but after I balled and oiled the dough ball, I remembered I had my big peel at market for the Mack’s 18" pizza.  I thought now what!  I divided the dough into two pieces.  The one ball now weighs 407 grams and the other weighs 191 grams.  I kept the bigger dough ball and froze the smaller one.  I had even thought I had mozzarella in the freezer, but I didn’t, so I had to run to the store to get some.  Wouldn’t you know it, the lady sliced the mozzarella instead of giving me the ˝ lb. I had asked for.  After all this, I walked to the liquor store and bought myself a bottle of wine.  I thought maybe that will clear my mind for making the pizza. 

Do you think in the end if the Bisquick Original works out, we should be able to use normal ingredients to make the same pizza, since you have done all this work?

The article you found on dextrose is really interesting.  I can now understand why the Sukie pizza probably got such good coloration and fermentation.  Did you ever read that much about dextrose before?

Hopefully this pizza will turn out as good as the Sukie one, but if it doesn’t that’s okay.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Do you think in the end if the Bisquick Original works out, we should be able to use normal ingredients to make the same pizza, since you have done all this work?

If your results are good again, then I think it should be possible to come up with a formulation that is based on using the Bisquick Original mix along with a "goody bag". To correctly reverse engineer both the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix is a tall order. Then you have to hope that the "goody bag" works properly with the final reverse engineered formulation or at least doesn't hurt anything. I still believe that there is a fair amount of latitude on the values of baker's percents of the ingredients so long as they are not off the wall and are in the right pecking order. Your next pizza will hopefully provide the answer, provided that your home oven can deliver the same or similar results to those you get at market with your deck oven. BTW, for your 407 gram dough ball, you can make a pizza that is around 13.5" and it should have the same characteristics as the 16" pizza.

The article you found on dextrose is really interesting.  I can now understand why the Sukie pizza probably got such good coloration and fermentation.  Did you ever read that much about dextrose before?

I hadn't done much before with dextrose. I knew that it was in a lot of commercial recipes but assumed that maybe it was used because it was cheaper for commercial applications than using sucrose, much as corn syrup has been used for similar reasons. What triggered my interest more strongly was its relationship to yeast fermentation. That prompted me to look more deeply into that ingredient. Had the Bisquick mixes not used dextrose, I don't think I would have delved into the matter, at least not at this time. But I am glad I did. As you may know, you can purchase dextrose. I believe that Barry Farms carries it.

Peter

[norma427]

The next Sukie pizza was made.  This pizza was good, but not as good as the one with the Bisquick Buttermilk Bisucit mix and Peter’s “goody bag”.  The taste of this Sukie crust almost tastes like a normal pizza crust, that is fermented for a day or a little more. I placed flour on the table, floured the top of the dough ball and then after putting the dough ball flour side down, floured the bottom a little, before opening the skin. The skin was really easy to open, but I still didn’t get it all even when opening it. This skin was opened to about 13" or a little more. There were fermentation bubbles in the skin. This pizza did have oven spring and did also brown. The rim was also moist, but not as moist as the pizza baked in my deck oven.  I baked this pizza in my home oven at my normal baking temperature at about 500 degrees F.  The pizza baked in 7 minutes.  I place the pizza on the pizza stone on the bottom rack of the oven.  This Sukie pizza moved away from a Biquick taste. 

I planned on mixing this dough and fermenting it for the same length of time that I did at market.  The dough was again left to ferment at room temperature for 2 hrs. before balling.  It was then balled, and left to ferment for 2 more hrs.  The ambient room temperature this time was 71 degrees F.  I think this dough could have fermented longer, but I wanted to let the dough ferment for about the same length of time to see what would happen. 

Pictures below

Norma