Author Topic: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday  (Read 41230 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2011, 10:13:55 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #121 on: May 06, 2011, 10:14:49 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #122 on: May 06, 2011, 10:22:28 PM »

I hadn't done much before with dextrose. I knew that it was in a lot of commercial recipes but assumed that maybe it was used because it was cheaper for commercial applications than using sucrose, much as corn syrup has been used for similar reasons. What triggered my interest more strongly was its relationship to yeast fermentation. That prompted me to look more deeply into that ingredient. Had the Bisquick mixes not used dextrose, I don't think I would have delved into the matter, at least not at this time. But I am glad I did. As you may know, you can purchase dextrose. I believe that Barry Farms carries it.

Peter


Peter,

I think it would be interesting to experiment with dextrose to see how it works.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #123 on: May 07, 2011, 12:22:33 PM »
Norma,

I think your best bet at this point would be to try a 16" pizza at market, using the same formulation you used for your last pizza. The benefit of such a test would be to see if the type of oven is a material factor in the results you get. That would be my first preference--to rule the formulation in or out. However, if you do not feel that such a test would be worthwhile, I think I should be able to come up with a formulation (including a different "goody bag") for you to try out based on my analysis of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. If my analysis is correct, there may be some limitations that can affect the final results because I cannot remove anything from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, like some of the leavening or salt, to lower any baker's percents that may be too high. I can only add things, not subtract them. I won't know what the actual situation is until I work on the numbers. I think the ultimate ideal solution would be to make your own "Bisquick mix" (a clone) and add all of the right other ingredients to it, and in the right amounts to make a pizza dough. Then we can take that formulation to General Mills and ask for big bucks. Or start making your own pounches of the mix and sell them at market and keep the formulation a trade secret.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #124 on: May 07, 2011, 04:14:53 PM »
Norma,

I think your best bet at this point would be to try a 16" pizza at market, using the same formulation you used for your last pizza. The benefit of such a test would be to see if the type of oven is a material factor in the results you get. That would be my first preference--to rule the formulation in or out. However, if you do not feel that such a test would be worthwhile, I think I should be able to come up with a formulation (including a different "goody bag") for you to try out based on my analysis of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. If my analysis is correct, there may be some limitations that can affect the final results because I cannot remove anything from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, like some of the leavening or salt, to lower any baker's percents that may be too high. I can only add things, not subtract them. I won't know what the actual situation is until I work on the numbers. I think the ultimate ideal solution would be to make your own "Bisquick mix" (a clone) and add all of the right other ingredients to it, and in the right amounts to make a pizza dough. Then we can take that formulation to General Mills and ask for big bucks. Or start making your own pounches of the mix and sell them at market and keep the formulation a trade secret.

Peter

Peter,

The pizza I made last evening was good, but somehow the flavor profile changed.  The crust still browned, was about the same texture, had about the same crispness on the bottom and on the rim, but didn’t taste like the Sukie pizza that was made at market.  What do you think contributed to the flavor profile change. Do you think it could have been the extra ingredients I added and not in the right amounts?  In my opinion I don’t think it was my home oven that made the difference, but could be wrong.  When I bake a preferment Lehmann dough at market or home the flavor profile doesn’t change.  The pizza is only a little bit drier from the longer bake time at home, but that is about the only change I can notice.  I looked this morning on the web to see if the eggs white solids compared to the egg solids I should have used, could have change anything.  From what I read, it would make some difference in the taste and texture, unless lecithin is added.  If you want me to link you to that article, I can.  

I will leave it up to you what to try next.  I would be interested in seeing a different “goody bag” from your analysis of the Bisquick pancake and baking mix, if it isn't too much work.  

Lol, it would be something if our formula turns out better than the Betty Crocker pizza mix.  It already did, even with the last experiment.  I think General Mills would be glad to be able to sell a better pizza mix.  If our formulas ever work out, they never would be trade secrets, because everyone can already read here on the forum what we are doing.  

These are pictures of slices from the pizza I made last evening.  I took them outside, so the color and how they really look are better.  They weren’t reheated, and I took them to my mother, but I did taste the cold crust, and it was still good.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #125 on: May 07, 2011, 06:09:46 PM »
Norma,

As you know, I don't like to change more than one variable at a time. I know it was unavoidable in your case, but you changed several variables--the dough formulation you used, the pizza size, and the oven. That makes it difficult to know what really happened or how to change things based on your results. I could perhaps decipher some of the causes of the change in crust flavor but to conduct such an analysis properly would entail a lot of number crunching to see what your formulation was in terms of baker's percents and related weights. I would rather spend the time coming up with a new formulation that is suggested by the work I did to try to decipher the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix.

The above said, I thought initially that perhaps you were low on the fat content and that affected the crust flavor. But adding more partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil (if you can even find it without other additives) would be rather unlikely to have a major impact on flavor because such fats as produced commercially tend not to add much flavor to the finished product and are intended to be on the bland side, much like sanitizing/deodorizing lard. They are more likely to have a textural, tenderizing effect. The failure to use a dry egg powder rather than dry egg whites shouldn't have had a pronounced effect on crust taste for the small amount you used. FYI, when I was reading the nutrition information on the packages of pancake mixes recently, I did see dry egg whites listed as an ingredient, but way down in the list of ingredients. If you used too much baking powder, possibly that could have had an effect on overall crust flavor.

I will leave to you whether you should repeat the last experiment but using your deck oven. I would rather spend the time on a new formulation. And it may well turn out that that formulation is not the answer either. What we are trying to do is to reverse engineer two commercial mixes, the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix, mash them together in some logical way, and then make other changes through the "goody bag" to come up with a pizza dough. Unfortunately, none of these exercises is ever easy or quick. 

Peter
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 07:27:59 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #126 on: May 07, 2011, 08:39:58 PM »
Peter,

I know you don’t like to change more than one variable at a time.  I know I also did change more than one variable in my last experiment. I just would like whatever formulas we use to be able to baked in a deck oven or home oven and to be able to come up with about the same results.  At this time, I don’t know if that is out of the question or not. 

It is interesting if I used too much baking powder that could have an effect on the overall crust flavor.  I just thought it would make the dough ferment faster.  I didn’t notice any taste of baking powder in the finished crust, but maybe the amount of baking powder I used did change the crust flavor. 

If you have time to work on a new formulation that would be good.  I know what you are trying to do is reverse engineer two baking mixes (Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix and Buttermilk Bisquick mix) and trying to find a “goody bag” that would work.  I can understand that is asking for very much.

Did you happen to find any of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix pouches at store near you? 

Best of luck!

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #127 on: May 07, 2011, 08:47:03 PM »
Norma,

The two stores near me that I mentioned earlier did not have the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit pouches. Maybe Kroger will have them. In the meantime, I am using the information from the General Mills website.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #128 on: May 08, 2011, 12:31:43 PM »
Norma,

As promised, I have set forth below the formulation that is intended to be a mash-up of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix, as further modified through the use of a "goody bag" to produce what hopefully will be a functional pizza dough.

Here are the steps to follow:

Add 212 grams/7.48 ounces of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to a bowl
Add 160.5 grams/5.66 ounces of King Arthur bread flour (KABF)
Add 1.11 grams/0.04 ounces of the Clabber Girl baking powder; this comes to a bit over 1/4 t.
Add 0.80 grams/0.028 ounces salt; this comes to 1/8 t.; you will have to adjust if you decide to use a Kosher salt
Add 8.67 grams/0.31 ounces dried buttermilk powder; this comes to 1 1/2 t.
Add 2.41 grams/0.09 ounces dried whole egg; this comes to 1 1/2 t.
Add 0.85 grams/0.03 ounces soy flour; this comes to a bit less than 1/2 t.
Add 2.26 grams/0.08 ounces of IDY; this comes to 3/4 t.
Using a pastry cutter or its equivalent, cut 12.84 grams/0.45 ounces of partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil into the dry ingredients (but see instructions/notes below)
Total weight of "goody bag" contents = 401.04 grams/14.16 ounces

There are two components of the water:

Water 1: 94.18 grams/3.32 ounces (this is in relation to the presumed cake flour in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix; hydration = 55%)
Water 2: 99.49 grams/3.51 ounces (this is in relation to the KABF; hydration = 62%)
Total weight of water: 193.67 grams/6.83 ounces

Grand total weight of the "goody bag" and the water = 594.71 grams/20.98 ounces (for one 16" pizza with a corresponding thickness factor of 0.104)

As noted above, one of the new ingredients for the "goody bag" is the partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil. As previously mentioned, you are not going to find such a product in the supermarkets on a standalone basis. In fact, the entire fat scene in supermarkets has changed dramatically over the past several years, with a concerted effort to reduce or eliminate hydrogenated fats, and particularly the dreaded trans fats that are a byproduct of hydrogenation of oils. The "old" Crisco would have been a good choice for our purposes but the "new and improved" Crisco has been dramatically changed (with different oils and combination of full and partial hydrogenation) and no longer meets the fat profile (total fat/sat fat) for our application. Butter and lard could be used in a pinch but they do not meet the desired fat profile either (too much saturated fats).

The closest match that I could find is a basic, solid, stick (not soft or tub or liquid or butter/margarine blends) supermarket margarine. Of the brands that I checked out for our application, the Imperial (original) brand of margarine seems to offer the best match. Unfortunately, margarines these days, including the Imperial brand, include many other ingredients, such as whey, some liquid oils, colors, flavors, and preservatives and the like. They also include water and salt. These ingredients may not materially affect the outcome of our project but that is something we will not know until the results are in, and maybe not  even then. For the Imperial margarine, I suggest using 14.98 grams/0.53 ounces. That comes to 1/2 T. (or the mid-point of the tablespoon markings on the paper wrapper). That value also compensates for the fact that margarine contains around 17% water. For the amounts used, that is not likely to be a problem with final hydration. As you discovered before, you had to add more water than I calculated. I suspect the same may occur with the above formulation.

Happy Mother's Day.

Peter





Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #129 on: May 08, 2011, 02:33:28 PM »
Peter,

Thanks so much for spending so much time trying to get this all figured out how to change the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Buttermilk Biquick Biscuit mix as modified though the use of a “goody bag” to produce what might be a functional pizza dough.  How long did that take you to get that all figured out?  Just thinking about how many calculations you must have gone though has my mind in a tizzy. 

I don’t know where to purchase the dried whole eggs.  Do you know where I could purchase them?  I still only have the dried egg white solids.

I do have Imperial margarine at market and use that in my herb blend (with added olive oil) for some of my bread sticks and garlic knots, so that isn’t any problem.  When I made the Bisquick Buttermilk pizza at market last week with the “goody bag”, maybe the maragine will help make the dough like last weeks.  I did note in my one reply that there seemed to be some kind of fat in the dough even though it was mixed. 

Yes, I did discover before I needed to add some more water to both mixes, to make the dough feel like the Betty Crocker pizza mix.  I will note what amount of water I need to add, if any.  I hope you get to try out your own “goody bag” in combination with the Bisquick pancake and baking mix at some point in time.

I also want to thank you for wishing me a Happy Mother’s Day.  This is really a nice Mother’s Day present, of setting forth a formula for me to try with the Bisquick pancake and baking mix.  My Mother had liked to go to the casino years ago with my Father.  She only played the slots (and not for much money) and I did go to Atlantic City Casinos and Hollywood Casino (near Hershey) with her different times, just because she does like Casinos.  For me, I don’t like casinos, but my oldest daughter and I decided to take my mother to Hollywood Casino later today, just so she would have a good time.  I know I will only be playing the penny slots, because I know I am not lucky and also don’t like to throw away money.  The last time I went to the casino with my Mother, at Hollywood was two years ago.  I also have the one small kitten that will only be 6 weeks old this week.  She still needs to be feed every 4 hrs., so I still am a relatively new mother to her.

Thanks again, you sure were quick in coming up with a “goody bag” and setting forth a new formula.  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #130 on: May 08, 2011, 03:53:27 PM »
Norma,

I burned the midnight oil on this project yesterday to get it completed on time. I don't like incomplete jobs or doing them piecemeal because I find that I spend too much time getting back up to speed when I get back into the jobs. What you see in my last post is the final results, presented in a compact, organized manner in about a couple easy to read and execute paragraphs. What you don't see is the ten pages of notes that I have on the project and the hundreds of data entries and calculations. For some reason, so many of your projects have so many different twists and turns that, except for an occasional use of a dough calcultaing tool and bastardizations thereof, just about everything has to be done by hand using pencil and paper and desk calculators. The killer is working with so many small-valued numbers out to several decimal places and doing conversions and just about living on the SelfNutritionData website hunting down information. This all tells me that I should scale back my participation in projects like this. They are just too tedious and time consuming. Sometimes I don't learn that until I am well into the project and I often underestimate the scope of the job. But I am not the type to bail. I try to finish all of my jobs.

With respect to the dried egg powder, I do not have any on hand. However, I know that Barry Farms sells it, at http://www.barryfarm.com/milk.htm. Rather than spend a lot of money just to be able to use a trivial amount in relation to the size of the bag of the dried egg powder, I suggest that you use part of a fresh egg. I would go with a fifth of an egg. Since a single large, fresh, raw egg weighs about 50 grams, that would be 10 grams. That will add about another two grams of water to your dough but I know that you will be able to get the final hydration where it should be.

Good luck. I look forward to your results.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 09:34:38 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #131 on: May 08, 2011, 09:32:21 PM »
Peter,

I can understand how long this project took you to figure out all the information and do all the calculations, since you have told me.  Wow, ten pages of notes and hundreds of data entries and calculations are even more than I would have imagined.  I only started this thread with trying to see how a Betty Crocker pizza mix would turn out in a short while.  I never thought this thread would balloon into such a project for you.  I thought the test on the Betty Crocker pizza mix was a one once and done test.  I never thought this thread would turn into a reverse-engineering project for two General Mills products and then also having to have “goody bags”.  I am sorry I gave you so much work.  I know my wondering and being curious about different things can lead to trouble.

I won’t ask you in the future to even try anything like this project. I can understand a project like this is too tedious and time consuming for you. With me being so poor in math, I can’t even help with that.  

Thanks again for all your hard work and I won’t be asking for this kind of help in the future.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #132 on: May 08, 2011, 11:08:19 PM »
This is what leftover pancakes look like that were grilled with the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, this morning. They sure don’t look anything like pizza either, the same way the shortcake sure didn’t look like pizza from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2011, 09:56:51 AM »
The two containers, (one of the “goody bag” and Bisquick Bisquick cheese-garlic bisucit mix and the other of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, with the “goody bag” added) and instructions from Peter, are ready to go to market tomorrow.

Picture below

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2011, 10:29:33 AM »
Norma,

I can understand how long this project took you to figure out all the information and do all the calculations, since you have told me.  Wow, ten pages of notes and hundreds of data entries and calculations are even more than I would have imagined.  I only started this thread with trying to see how a Betty Crocker pizza mix would turn out in a short while.  I never thought this thread would balloon into such a project for you.  I thought the test on the Betty Crocker pizza mix was a one once and done test.  I never thought this thread would turn into a reverse-engineering project for two General Mills products and then also having to have “goody bags”.  I am sorry I gave you so much work.  I know my wondering and being curious about different things can lead to trouble.

I won’t ask you in the future to even try anything like this project. I can understand a project like this is too tedious and time consuming for you. With me being so poor in math, I can’t even help with that.  

Thanks again for all your hard work and I won’t be asking for this kind of help in the future.

There was no harm done, so there is no need to apologize. I don't think that there would have been any way that you could have predicted the scope and complexity of the task and how long it would take to complete. I knew we were getting in much deeper (as I noted to you) when you decided that you wanted to use the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix as the starting point for a Sukie pizza instead of the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix, but I thought that the task was still manageable, as it was up to that point. As it turned out, I underestimated what had to be done and how long it would take to do it. But, now it is over, and I eagerly await the results you achieve when you get around to trying the new formulation. That will be the best test to see if I did the reverse engineering correctly and also handled the math adequately.

For future reference, I think that it is safe to say that if you want to do something different or unusual that is out of the general realm of what we do on the forum, or if the tools available on the forum cannot be used, or used easily, then whomever decides to help you with the math or technical aspects of what you would like to do is most likely going to have to spend a fair amount of time and effort on the task at hand. It's unfortunate that you struggle with math, since that limits what you can do and makes you overly dependent on others, but that is the reality of the matter. You should still reach out to others on the forum for help but consider that they can only do so much. There really aren't that many members on the forum who can do the sorts of things that your projects require.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2011, 11:36:13 AM »
Peter,

I know I am overdependent on others to help with my projects and from now on, I will just experiment on what I know how to do.  I also know since my math skills are severely lacking, that puts me way behind other members.  I know I have depended on you for far too many projects and now that I think about it, that was a bad decision on my part.  I know you also have moderators duties and also always help other members. Since the forum is growing so rapidly, I know you have much to do.  I am just glad to be a part of this forum.

I just thought we were going to “wing it”, when I posted about using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix.  I never thought you would try to reverse engineer the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  I would have been satisfied with just trying my proposed formula, and if it didn’t work out that was fine.  Even having the “Sukie” pizza turn out so great with using the “goodie bag”, was quite an accomplishment on your part.  I appreciate you helped me to be able to accomplish that. 

I already know other members can’t reverse engineer products or pizza like you can.  You have studied how to do that many times and I have seen it has taken you many years to learn how to do that. 

I appreciate all the help you have given me in the past and present.  I promised I won’t ever ask for your help again in another project.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #136 on: May 10, 2011, 10:00:34 PM »
The Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix dough and Peters’ “goody bag” were mixed late this morning.  I shouldn’t have assumed since I had to add water to the Bisquick Buttermilk mix and “goody bag” that the amount of water would not be enough.  I added the whole amount of water stated for “total weight of water”.  That was a mistake on my part. I did use hot water today.  When I mixed the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix with the “goody bag” and water, the dough seems really sticky.  I thought wow, I sure made a mistake in using that much water.  I did use my plastic dough scraper and kept turning the dough onto itself, kinda like stretch and folds.  I dough was still sticky, so I decided to just let it ferment.  I did let it ferment for two hours.  Then I added a little bench flour and did more stretch and folds.  The dough seemed to become more like a Tartine Bread dough then.  It was bubbly, but still kinda sticky.  I then did ball the dough and covered it with flour and also put olive oil on the bottom of the plastic container.   The dough was then fermented for two more hours.

When I went to open the dough ball, it still a little sticky, but I proceeded.  The dough opened very easily.  When Steve and I dressed the pie, it wanted to stick to the peel.  We tried to add more rice flour under the dough and even blew under the skin a few times, but there were still places it wanted to stick.  When Steve slid the pie into the oven, we knew it was sticking in one spot, but still proceeded.  As can be seen the pizza did not get altogether round.  The crumb of this pizza was very light and very moist in the rim.  When taking bites of the rim, it was almost like a cloud.  The taste of the crust was very good.  Steve and I thought this was a very good short time pizza.  There was no Bisquick taste in the crust of this pizza.

The second Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit pizza, I will explain later, but the “goody bag” did work with the Biquick cheese-garlic mix and I did add more water to that mix.  That pizza turned out about the same as the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix last week, but I think the taste of the cheese-garlic crust was better than the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix with the “goody bag”, I had tried last week.  

Pictures of the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix with Peter’s “goody bag” added pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #137 on: May 10, 2011, 10:04:18 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #138 on: May 10, 2011, 10:06:47 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #139 on: May 10, 2011, 10:09:41 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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