Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday

[norma427]

The Biquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix was mixed with the same “goody bag” as I also mixed the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix with last week.  I did add .50 oz. more water to this dough.  As can been seen on the pictures of the dough there is an almost orange substance in the mix, even after it was mixed into dough and also in the baked rim.  Steve and I tasted the almost orange substance and it almost tasted like a waxy nothing.  It had no flavor.  This dough was also bulk fermented for 2 hrs., then balled with flour and put into a plastic container with oil and room temperature fermented for another 2 hrs.

This dough mix came together well, and the dough ball was easy to open.  I find how the bottom of this crust browned interesting.  This Sukie pizza did turn out well, and only had a hint of a Bisquick taste.  It didn’t taste like fluffy pancakes like last week.  Steve and I couldn’t taste any cheese in the crust and only a hint of garlic.  At least in my opinion and Steve’s, this was another successful Sukie pizza.

The rim of this pizza was also moist.  In my opinion, it is interesting that a pizza can be made with a biscuit mix. 

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

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[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you for posting your results. You certainly got some interesting results, especially the bottom of the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic crust.

I am at a loss, however, to explain how you got such a sticky dough using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the new "goody bag". I plan to revisit what I posted in Reply 128 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg138285.html#msg138285 (and as slightly modified in Reply 130), and my notes as well, to see if I can detect anything there that might help explain why your dough was so sticky. For now, I can tell you that my formulation presumed a blend of 12 ounces of flour (about half cake flour and half bread flour). On that basis, using the specified amount of water, the hydration would have been just under 57%. I don't know how much water would have been added by one fifth of a fresh egg and a bit less than one-half tablespoon of Imperial margarine, but I wouldn't have expected that it would be enough to throw the recipe out of kilter. The only other explanation that I can think of is that maybe the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix has considerably more partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil that I estimated, and that the added fat made the dough stickier. Or maybe there is something in a fresh egg that was responsible. Based on your extensive experience working with doughs of different hydrations, can you estimate what you thought the hydration was when you were done mixing everything together?

I can't say that I was surprised by the low flavor impact of the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic crust. I suspect that there is a limit as to how much of those flavors can be built into an inexpensive mix.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you for posting your results. You certainly got some interesting results, especially the bottom of the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic crust.

I am at a loss, however, to explain how you got such a sticky dough using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the new "goody bag". I plan to revisit what I posted in Reply 128 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg138285.html#msg138285 (and as slightly modified in Reply 130), and my notes as well, to see if I can detect anything there that might help explain why your dough was so sticky. For now, I can tell you that my formulation presumed a blend of 12 ounces of flour (about half cake flour and half bread flour). On that basis, using the specified amount of water, the hydration would have been just under 57%. I don't know how much water would have been added by one fifth of a fresh egg and a bit less than one-half tablespoon of Imperial margarine, but I wouldn't have expected that it would be enough to throw the recipe out of kilter. The only other explanation that I can think of is that maybe the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix has considerably more partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil that I estimated, and that the added fat made the dough stickier. Or maybe there is something in a fresh egg that was responsible. Based on your extensive experience working with doughs of different hydrations, can you estimate what you thought the hydration was when you were done mixing everything together?

I can't say that I was surprised by the low flavor impact of the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic crust. I suspect that there is a limit as to how much of those flavors can be built into an inexpensive mix.

Peter

Peter,

I am also at a loss to explain I how I got that sticky dough, when using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix and the “goody bag”.  I sure don’t think I measured out the water incorrectly, but that is always a possibility.  I did use my scales at market to measure out the water.  I won’t know until I do another test on this dough next week, what might have gone wrong.  The pizza ended up tasting very good though.  From my prior experiences in handling different types of dough this dough felt like about 82% hydration.  I knew when I first mixed it, it shouldn’t have felt like that.  I then thought what went wrong.  At least we know the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, plus the “goody bag”, can be made into a high hydration pizza, with some stretch and folds and a little bit of bench flour. The crumb on this pizza was so light, it almost melted in our mouths.

At least we also now know that your other “goody bag” did work with the Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix, with no need to change anything, except add a little water.  I was surprised that the taste of that crust changed more away from the fluffy pancake taste of the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix, with the “goody bag” added.  I, my taste testers, and Steve would eat any of these pizzas made with your added “goody bags”.  They were all so much better than the first pizza I made from the Betty Crocker pizza mix, on the first post on this thread.  You have done a fantastic job with your “goody bags”.  Congrats! 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you very much for the nice words. However, I won't rest easy until the hydration issue is resolved. But it is good to know that an extremely high hydration Bisquick/"goody bag" dough behaves just about like any other dough with very high hydration, in terms of the lightness and softness of the finished crust. Once the hydration issue is resolved, I may try to come up with a single formulation that incorporates the "goody bag". That is where the trade secrets will reside and require that someone do a fair amount of work to arrive at the same place, even with what I have already posted on the matter. I'm sure that General Mills would know how to reformulate everything so as to optimize the formulation for consumer use. I suspect, however, that GM might not be interested in a 4-hour dough. Consumers want "instant" doughs.

I went back and revisited the ingredients list for the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix. There are about 25
ingredients, including many more "sub" ingredients, but the amount of fat on a serving basis seems to be even higher than the other Bisquick mixes we have been analyzing. So it is hard to say what effect the presumed higher fat levels would have on the consistency of the dough once the water and "goody bag" are added.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you very much for the nice words. However, I won't rest easy until the hydration issue is resolved. But it is good to know that an extremely high hydration Bisquick/"goody bag" dough behaves just about like any other dough with very high hydration, in terms of the lightness and softness of the finished crust. Once the hydration issue is resolved, I may try to come up with a single formulation that incorporates the "goody bag". That is where the trade secrets will reside and require that someone do a fair amount of work to arrive at the same place, even with what I have already posted on the matter. I'm sure that General Mills would know how to reformulate everything so as to optimize the formulation for consumer use. I suspect, however, that GM might not be interested in a 4-hour dough. Consumers want "instant" doughs.

I went back and revisited the ingredients list for the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix. There are about 25 ingredients, including many more "sub" ingredients, but the amount of fat on a serving basis seems to be even higher than the other Bisquick mixes we have been analyzing. So it is hard to say what effect the presumed higher fat levels would have on the consistency of the dough the water and "goody bag" are added.

Peter

Peter,

As I posted in my last post, I am not sure if I exactly used the right amount of water with Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix with the “goody bag”.  I might be curious enough to try another experiment on that, if I find the time over the weekend.  It now really has me bugged if I did use the right amount of water.  I had your concise instructions along at market, but I don’t even remember if I had been distracted while weighing the water.  I don’t think I was, but there are so many things that keep going on at market, that I could have made a mistake in weighing the water.

It is interesting to hear, that once the hydration issues are resolved that then you might try to come up with a single formulation that incorporates the “goody bag”.  If you decide on doing that work, you might want to contact General Mills.    From the results I had so far, I would think they would be interested in your formulations.  I would think you could get a fair amount of money from them, if they are interested in making a better pizza mix.  I know everyone is always interested in “instant everything”, but if regular homemakers could make a great pizza in a few hours, that would be great! 

I wonder what that fatty (waxy) substance was in the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic buscuit mix.  That stuff didn’t even melt with hot water added.  It could be seen in the pictures I posted on the dough, skin, and crumb of the pizza.  It interested me and Steve, that it was tasteless.  That was weird.  Your "goody bag" did perform well with the Biquick Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix.  It was another Sukie pizza.   

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

This morning, I read a December 1, 2010 review by Cook's Country (a Cook's Illustrated publication) in which eight different pancake mixes were tested, including our beloved Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. According to the article, pancake mixes are a $250 million dollar a year business in the U.S. So it looks like pancake mixes are a fairly sizable business, especially when one considers that it is so easy to make one's own mix.

The Bisquick mix finished sixth in the ratings. The top pancake mix (Hungry Jack Buttermilk Pancake and Waffle Mix) has a little fat (less than 2% partially hydrogenated soybean oil), but a lot of sugar (and also rice flour), and requires that users add milk, oil, and egg. The next favored pancake mix (Aunt Jemima Original Pancake and Waffle Mix) has no oil, but a lot of sugar and salt, and also requires that the user add milk, oil and egg. The Bisquick mix, which only requires that users add milk and egg, was "Recommended with Reservations", with the following review:

These “exceptionally bland” pancakes scored no better than average across the board. Tasters couldn’t muster any strong feelings about either flavor or texture, with one commenting, “It could be a lot worse.”

Maybe you can make a Sukie pizza using the "bland" Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and have the CI testers critique it

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

This morning, I read a December 1, 2010 review by Cook's Country (a Cook's Illustrated publication) in which eight different pancake mixes were tested, including our beloved Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. According to the article, pancake mixes are a $250 million dollar a year business in the U.S. So it looks like pancake mixes are a fairly sizable business, especially when one considers that it is so easy to make one's own mix.

The Bisquick mix finished sixth in the ratings. The top pancake mix (Hungry Jack Buttermilk Pancake and Waffle Mix) has a little fat (less than 2% partially hydrogenated soybean oil), but a lot of sugar (and also rice flour), and requires that users add milk, oil, and egg. The next favored pancake mix (Aunt Jemima Original Pancake and Waffle Mix) has no oil, but a lot of sugar and salt, and also requires that the user add milk, oil and egg. The Bisquick mix, which only requires that users add milk and egg, was "Recommended with Reservations", with the following review:

These “exceptionally bland” pancakes scored no better than average across the board. Tasters couldn’t muster any strong feelings about either flavor or texture, with one commenting, “It could be a lot worse.”

Maybe you can make a Sukie pizza using the "bland" Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and have the CI testers critique it

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting about the review you read by Cook’s Country about the different pancakes mixes that were tested, including our beloved Biquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  The pancake business sure is a big business.  I know it is fairly easy to make a pancake mix on my own, but for some reason I really like to use the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix to make pancakes.  Maybe it is because my mother had used it for years (because she worked full-time and my mother and father built their own home form bottom to top. It took them 4 years while working full-time for both of them to build their home and a 5 car garage, which I grew up in.)  My mother always made fresh home cooked meals, but I guessed skimped on the pancakes and strawberry shortcakes she made, by using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  I have tried other pancake mixes and also have tried to use my own mixes, but I keep going back to the Bisquick Original Pancake and baking mix.  Maybe is something like the first good pizza you eat, you will always will remember.  Theses pancakes from the batter of Bisquick with only the addition of milk and eggs, do really brown great, are easy to make, and no oil is needed when grilling them.  Maybe I am lazy, but keep going back to these pancakes, for some reason. 

Lol, making a Sukie pizza and having CI critique it sure would be funny.  I would guess they wouldn’t believe what can be made out of the Bisquick mix, since you have come up with a “goody bag”.  You are really the chef, because you are the one that came up with the formula. 

I plan on making another Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix pizza with your “goody bag” tomorrow.  Then I will see if I used the wrong amount of water and also see how your formulation turns out. I even went to market yesterday, to get my big pizza peel, so I will be able to make a 16" pizza. I didn’t want to forget it today, and I also was in the area to pick up some other stuff.  I wanted to make the Sukie pizza yesterday or today, but I had outside work to do and this afternoon, I must go to market and try to find the Goya manteca.  I am anxious to try out your formula with the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix!  You might be a star of Betty Crocker some day! 

Norma

[norma427]

I mixed another Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix with Peter’s “goody bag” and now can understand what I might have done wrong, when I mixed the mix before.  I did now weigh out all the ingredients and after I weighed them also took the final weight of all the ingredients combined, before I added the total weight of water. The total weight of the “goody bag” contents was 401 grams. I now think I didn’t measure the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix right before.  This time it looked like more of the Bisquick Original Pancake mix was in the container.  I think that is where I went wrong before. When I weighed the water, it looked about the same as it did at market.  

I used hot tap water today, but I don’t think my home tap water is as hot as it is at market.  My final dough temperature was 84.5 degrees F.  The total weight of the mix and water was 589 grams.  I think some dough stuck to my fingers and also the rubber spatula and rubber scraper I used to mix the dough.  

Now the dough does look almost like when I had used the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix or the Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix. The Sukie dough doesn’t look sticky like it did at market.

BTW, I did purchase another bag of the Bisquick Buttermilk mix to try at market sometime again with the “goody bag” Peter had set-forth.

I am not sure how long I am going to let this dough ferment, before reballing, because my ambient room temperature at home is 70 degrees F.  That is lower than my market temperatures have been so far.  I do want to use this dough in the same time frame as before, but am not sure about the way to go about this, to get the best results.

Pictures of the combined mix and final dough.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I'm glad to see that you apparently have resolved the hydration issue.

Can you tell me what the yellowish stuff is? Maybe the dried buttermilk, soy flour and/or dried egg powder? Or maybe some cheese powder?

FYI, your 589 grams total dough ball weight now translates to a thickness factor of [(589/28.35]/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.1033. I know that you like your skins to be on the thicker side, even for your NY style doughs, so I had originally arranged the amounts so that you would be using a thickness factor of around 0.105.

As for the fermentation protocol, I think you should use your best judgment as to how long the dough ball should ferment and then be used. Even the best of commercial formulations are at the mercy of variations in temperature, both water temperature and ambient temperature. I'm sure that the results of users of such products vary as a consequence.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I'm glad to see that you apparently have resolved the hydration issue.

Can you tell me what the yellowish stuff is? Maybe the dried buttermilk, soy flour and/or dried egg powder? Or maybe some cheese powder?

FYI, your 589 grams total dough ball weight now translates to a thickness factor of [(589/28.35]/(3.14159 x 8 x = 0.1033. I know that you like your skins to be on the thicker side, even for your NY style doughs, so I had originally arranged the amounts so that you would be using a thickness factor of around 0.105.

As for the fermentation protocol, I think you should use your best judgment as to how long the dough ball should ferment and then be used. Even the best of commercial formulations are at the mercy of variations in temperature, both water temperature and ambient temperature. I'm sure that the results of users of such products vary as a consequence.

Peter

Peter,

At least I think I figured out what went wrong with the hydration issue.  I didn’t see any yellowish stuff as can be seen on the picture.  I did mix the mix throughly before I cut the Imperial margarine in. I did use the amount of real egg you had posted before.  I know my lighting at home isn’t as good as it is at market.  It is drizzling here today too, so there isn’t the best of lighting for pictures.  I can take other pictures if you want me to. 

Thanks for arranging the formula for a little higher TF when you figured it out.  I do like a little thicker NY style pizza.  Thanks for remembering I do like a little thicker crusts for a NY style pizza or a Sukie pizza if this turns out okay.

The Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix, with your “goody bag”, looks like it is fermenting well.  I think I soon am going to ball it and then decide from there how long to let the dough ball ferment.  I really would like to have it ready in 4 hrs. like I did before.  Now, just so I don’t have some kind of issue with sliding the pizza off the peel onto my stone.  It is a lot easier at market to slide the pie unto the stone. 

I would have tried this pizza at market Tuesday, and  might still do that, but it was bugging me what I might have done wrong that the dough turned out so sticky.  I knew it wouldn’t be the formula you set-forth.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I can take other pictures if you want me to. 

Norma,

No, there is no need to take more photos. I thought that perhaps you decided to make a cheese-garlic version or something like that. I also recalled after I posted that you were perhaps using raw egg and the Imperial margarine, which has beta carotene in it, which I believe is used to give the margarine some color.

Peter

[norma427]

These are the pictures of the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix with Peter’s “goody bag” added. of the dough after it fermented top and bottom, and after the dough ball was formed and brushed with olive oil.

Norma

[norma427]

The Bisquick Pancake and Baking Mix pizza with the “goody bag” added, was made a little less than 4 ½ hrs. after it was mixed.  I wasn’t sure how long to let the dough ball ferment after I had balled it.  The dough ball was easy to open, but almost too easy, because it stretched to more than 16" in a very short time. When I measured the skin on the peel, I thought now there is going to be problems, because it skin was more than 16" and my pizza stone is only 16".  I don’t have a pizza screen bigger than 16".  There was no snap back in the skin.  Where ever I placed the skin it stayed the same size or wanted to get bigger. I still proceeded to dress the pie.  It was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, a blend of 4 cheeses, (John Martin’s mozzarella, Provolone,  Boar’s Head (Queso Blanco), and Buffalo Wing Cheddar cheese. Dietz and Watson Pepperoni was also placed on as a dressing, also.  I knew when I went to slide the pie off the peel (18"), the pie wasn’t going to fit my pizza stone and as can be seen it did droop on two sides.  

My oven light must have burned out between the last time I baked in the oven and today, but since the oven was too hot, I couldn’t change the oven light.  This pie baked differently than all the other pies on this thread.  It didn’t get a lot of oven spring.  

After the pie was baked, the crust and rim seemed bready, but in a different way than I would think of a bready rim.  It was still light and easy to chew, but different.  The bottom crust looked finished to me, but it also was soft and not crisp, as was the rim also.

Pictures below..Sorry, I changed the settings on my camera to take these pictures and the pictures looked fine when I looked at them on the back of the camera, but when I uploaded them, now they look darker.

Norma

[norma427]

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[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you for posting your latest results. From your description, clearly what you got was not the Sukie pizza that you hoped it would be. It is hard to explain why that was the case. Perhaps the jump from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix and finally to the Sukie dough via the "goody bag" was too much. Or my attempts at reverse engineering the two mixes did not succeed, or sufficiently so, even though all the numbers seemed to add up. Or maybe there are some ingredient issues with the "goody bag", although I would rank that possibility below the others at this point since it is hard to imagine that using the Imperial margarine and fresh egg in lieu of their commercial counterparts in the Bisquick Original mix would have had a major effect on the outcome. We would have to use the same or very similar ingredients that are used in the Bisquick Original mix to know for sure, which may not be a viable option at this point.

I suppose that in due course you might try making a Sukie pizza again using the Bisquick buttermilk biscuit mix and the "goody bag" for that application. If you can get similar results as you got the last time, that would be reassuring since you would know that using that combination is a viable approach.

Peter