Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday

[norma427]

Norma,

Can you give us a broad outline of what you are thinking of doing?

Peter

Peter,

What I would like to do is make a pizza out of one of these Bisquick Biscuit mixes, in a short amount of time.  I could be this Tuesday or next Tuesday.  It doesn’t really matter to me.  I would like an idea of how much flour (maybe what kind) to add, how much baking powder to add, and also how much more water or other ingredients I might need to use.  All these could just be a ball park figure, if that is possible.  I have no idea how to turn a biscuit mix into a pizza, except to add a higher protein flour, water, baking powder, maybe yeast and maybe salt. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

What I would like to do is make a pizza out of one of these Bisquick Biscuit mixes, in a short amount of time.  I could be this Tuesday or next Tuesday.  It doesn’t really matter to me.  I would like an idea of how much flour (maybe what kind) to add, how much baking powder to add, and also how much more water or other ingredients I might need to use.  All these could just be a ball park figure, if that is possible.  I have no idea how to turn a biscuit mix into a pizza, except to add a higher protein flour, water, baking powder, maybe yeast and maybe salt.  

Norma,

Your instincts on this are correct. I believe that it may be possible to come up with a more elegant solution and answer but it would take an effort that would be disproportionate to the benefits derived. So, I think we may have to "wing" it somewhat this time and view the exercise as a test of the viability of converting a mix designed specifically for biscuits to a pizza crust blend. From the tenor of your post quoted above, it appears that that is the approach you have in mind also. If so, I think I would use only one of the packets of mix that you purchased so that you don't end up wasting the other packet in case the transformation does not prove out.

I suggest that we start with the Buttermilk Bisquick Complete mix. I did a quick comparison of that product with the Bisquick Original mix to see if anything jumped out at me. What jumped out at me is what appears to be a considerably higher fat content for the Buttermilk mix. The Bisquick Original mix is intended to be a multi-purpose mix and, hence, its fat content may be restrained so that it can be used to make a wide variety of products once milk, eggs and solid fat are added. A higher fat content for the Buttermilk mix, if confirmed, would be consistent with an end product--biscuits--that typically have a high fat content. What this means is that, in order to modify such a mix to attenutate the effects of the higher fat content, one would have to add a lot of outside flour, such as all-purpose flour or bread flour. If too much outside flour is added, along with other modifications, including adding some yeast, then you run the risk of ending up with a dough that does not perform properly, much like a dough made from the recipe that Botch recently posted. If I had to guess, even with a properly constructed "pizza mix", it is likely to produce a finished crust that has some if not many of the biscuit-like characteristics of a deep-dish crust, but in flat form. This would not be surprising. I have only tried the Jiffy pizza mix, which was specifically designed to make a pizza crust, and I noticed that the final crust had some biscuit-like characteristics. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if such is the case with many of the other high fat content pizza crust mixes I listed earlier in this thread.

I will take a closer look at the information on the Buttermilk Bisquick mix to see what I can take away from it. I noticed that the net weight of the packet of that mix is greater than the net weight of the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix that you used to make your mystery pizza. Adding outside flour to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, along with other dry ingredients (Clabber Girl baking powder, more salt, etc.) as previously discussed, will further increase the net weight of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. That, in turn, will have an effect on the total dough batch weight (including more water) and the size of the pizza(s) made from it. I am fairly confident that the flour used to make the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is a low protein flour, most likely a bromated cake flour with a protein content in the 7-8.5% range. I have made pizzas before using cake mix and it does not usually make for a particularly appealing pizza, particularly from the standpoint of crust coloration. You can improve it by adding vital wheat gluten. Adding a flour like a bread flour should have a similar effect. Overcoming what appears to be a high fat content is likely to be the restraining factor.

On the matter of the yeast, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the yeast in the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix you used is actually dead yeast (glutathione) that is added in large measure for added flavor in the finished crust (it may also be implicated in producing a softer dough). There just doesn't seem to be enough time for "instant" doughs to undergo yeast fermentation for the short preparation time of the doughs.

As I start my analysis, I would appreciate it if you can tell me how much water is recommended by the preparation instructions to make the biscuits using the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and its temperature. That information might provide some clues on hydration. It would also help to see the Nutrition Facts for the Clabber Girl baking powder, mainly to see how much a teaspoon of that product weighs.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

It’s okay with me if we “wing it” this time.  I just wanted to see if the biscuit mix could somehow be turned into a pizza.  

The Betty Crocker Buttermilk Biscuit Mix does have a higher fat content than the Original Bisquick, as you have found out.  I did also buy a box of Bisquick Original.  The Better Crocker Buttermilk Biscuit Mix says to add ½ cup of water, just like the pizza mix I tried before in this thread.  The only thing different is it doesn’t say to add hot water, but mix until the dough is soft.
On the Bisquick Original I bought it doesn’t say anything about buttermilk in the ingredients.  The ingredients of the Original Bisquick are in the same order as the Betty Crocker Buttermilk Mix, until it comes down to sodium aluminum phosphate.  That is where the ingredients change.  The Original Bisquick then lists just dextrose and salt.  The Betty Crocker Buttermilk Biscuit Mix then lists buttermilk, salt, dextrose, egg, and soy flour.  You are right that the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix net weight is higher.  It is 212g. Or 7.5 oz.  

The Clabber Girl double acting baking powder ingredients are: cornstarch, sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum sulfate and monocalcium phosphate.  Nutrition Facts are: Serving size 1/8 tsp. (0.6) Servings Per Container about 383 calories 0, total fat 0, sodium 65mg. Total carb. 0, protein 0,and calcium 2%   I don’t know how accurate this is, but I weighed out a teaspoon (with a metal and plastic teaspoon 2 times) of the Clabber Girl baking powder on my kitchen scales a few times and the weights fluctuates between 4-5 grams, with 5 being the predominate number.

It is interesting to hear you think the Betty Crocker Pizza mix had dead yeast (glutathione) to give the crust better flavor.  I didn’t think the yeast had enough time to transform for fermentation of the dough.  

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I estimate that the flour component of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is around 5.7 ounces, or about 162 grams. We cannot assume that 1/2-cup of water called for by the instructions on the package is the right amount to use if we are to use the Buttermilk Bisquick mix as a base for a pizza mix. That amount is to make biscuits, not pizza dough. So, I would use an amount of water (noted below) that is more in line with what I would use with a cake flour, around 55%.

To the Buttermilk Biscuit mix, I propose to add 6 ounces (170 grams) of King Arthur Bread flour (KABF). Using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/, and assuming 7.9% protein content for the presumed cake flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and 12.7% for the KABF, I calculate that the protein content of the final blend is around 10.3%. That is in the all-purpose flour category. I also believe that that value is higher than the flour component of the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix you used recently to make your mystery pizza. Adding the 6 ounces of KABF to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix will have the effect of reducing the amount of total fat in the blend. It will also reduce the effects of the egg, buttermilk and soy flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. You would have to add more of these ingredients to get to the levels of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I don't see a compelling need to add more of these ingredients but if you have them and want to use them, I can give you some percents to use (relative to the weight of the KABF).

I also propose to add more baking powder (Clabber Girl brand), more salt, some sugar as an alternative to dextrose (which I assume you do not have), and some instant dry yeast (IDY). The IDY is intended mainly for crust flavor and possibly some fermentation if such can be achieved in the short dough preparation time. Of course, you could let the dough ferment at room temperature to help achieve more fermentation and get some of the benefits that the longer fermentation would confer on the finished crust. I will leave to you to decide on whether you want to do that. Maybe you want to see if you can make an "instant" dough (just as you did with the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix) and eliminate that step.

Here are the steps to follow to try to transform the Buttermilk Biscuit mix to a pizza crust mix:

Add the contents of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix packet (212 grams/7.48 ounces) to a bowl
Add 6 ounces (170 grams) of KABF
Add 4.59 grams/0.16 ounces of the Clabber Girl baking powder; this comes to 1 1/8 t.
Add 2.55 grams/0.09 ounces salt; this comes to a bit less than 1/2 t.; you will have to adjust if you decide to use a Kosher salt
Add 2.04 grams/0.072 ounces of sugar; this comes to 1/2 t.
Add 2.26 grams/0.08 ounces of IDY; this comes to 3/4 t.
Total weight of "goody bag" contents = 6.4 ounces/181.44 grams

There are two components of the water:

Water 1: 93.5 grams/3.3 ounces (this is in relation to the presumed cake flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix)
Water 2: 105.4 grams/3.72 ounces (this is in relation to the KABF)
Total weight of water: 194.9 grams/7.02 ounces

In light of the novel and uncertain nature of this experiment, you may want to initially hold back on some of the water to be sure that all of it is needed. This is where you may have to exercise your professional judgment as to when the dough has the proper consistency and "feel". That consistency and feel may be the same as when you made your mystery pizza. So, all of the water may not be needed, or maybe more will be needed. I suggest that you use a water temperature of around 130 degrees F, or whatever comparable temperature you can achieve out of the tap at market. If possible, I'd like to see some fermentation activity.

The total dough batch weight, at least on paper, should be around 592 grams/20.89 ounces. That amount of dough should be just about right to make a single 16" or maybe slightly larger pizza (with a thickness factor of around 0.10), or two roughly 12" pizzas (with a slightly smaller thickness factor value).

Good luck.

Peteer

[buceriasdon]

Ok, I'm confused, doesn't Bisquick have baking powder in it? What is the purpose of adding more? I found this on the Betty Crocker site for a recipe. Read the comments, good for a chuckle.     
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/bisquick-pizza/df578e3c-9ca3-438b-8780-06f6ea9434c2
Don

[norma427]

Norma,

I estimate that the flour component of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is around 6 ounces, or 170 grams. We cannot assume that 1/2-cup of water called for by the instructions on the package is the right amount to use if we are to use the Buttermilk Bisquick mix as a base for a pizza mix. That amount is to make biscuits, not pizza dough. So, I would use an amount of water (noted below) that is more in line with what I would use with a cake flour, around 55%.

To the Buttermilk Biscuit mix, I propose to add 6 ounces (170 grams) of King Arthur Bread flour (KABF). Using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/, and assuming 7.9% protein content for the presumed cake flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and 12.7% for the KABF, I calculate that the protein content of the final blend is 10.3%. That is in the all-purpose flour category. I also believe that that value is higher than the flour component of the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix you used recently to make your mystery pizza. Adding the 6 ounces of KABF to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix will have the effect of reducing the amount of total fat in the blend. It will also reduce the effects of the egg, buttermilk and soy flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. You would have to add more of these ingredients to get to the levels of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I don't see a compelling need to add more of these ingredients but if you have them and want to use them, I can give you some percents to use (relative to the weight of the KABF).

I also propose to add more baking powder (Clabber Girl brand), more salt, some sugar as an alternative to dextrose (which I assume you do not have), and some instant dry yeast (IDY). The IDY is intended mainly for crust flavor and possibly some fermentation if such can be achieved in the short dough preparation time. Of course, you could let the dough ferment at room temperature to help achieve more fermentation and get some of the benefits that the longer fermentation would confer on the finished crust. I will leave to you to decide on whether you want to do that. Maybe you want to see if you can make an "instant" dough (just as you did with the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix) and eliminate that step.

Here are the steps to follow to try to transform the Buttermilk Biscuit mix to a pizza crust mix:

Add the contents of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix packet (212 grams/7.48 ounces) to a bowl
Add 6 ounces (170 grams) of KABF
Add 4.59 grams/0.16 ounces of the Clabber Girl baking powder; this comes to 1 1/8 t.
Add 2.55 grams/0.09 ounces salt; this comes to a bit less than 1/2 t.; you will have to adjust if you decide to use a Kosher salt
Add 2.04 grams/0.072 ounces of sugar; this comes to 1/2 t.
Add 2.26 grams/0.08 ounces of IDY; this comes to 4/4 t.

There are two components of the water:

Water 1: 93.5 grams/3.3 ounces (this is in relation to the presumed cake flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix)
Water 2: 105.4 grams/3.72 ounces (this is in relation to the KABF)
Total weight of water: 194.9 grams/7.02 ounces

In light of the novel and uncertain nature of this experiment, you may want to initially hold back on some of the water to be sure that all of it is needed. This is where you may have to exercise your professional judgment as to when the dough has the proper consistency and "feel". That consistency and feel may be the same as when you made your mystery pizza. So, all of the water may not be needed, or maybe more will be needed. I suggest that you use a water temperature of around 130 degrees F, or whatever comparable temperature you can achieve out of the tap at market. If possible, I'd like to see some fermentation activity.

The total dough batch weight, at least on paper, should be around 592 grams/20.89 ounces. That amount of dough should be just about right to make a single 16" or maybe slightly larger pizza (with a thickness factor of around 0.10), or two roughly 12" pizzas (with a slightly smaller thickness factor value).

Good luck.

Peter

Peter,

Your plan sounds good to me to the change the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix into a pizza.  It is interesting to hear that the combination of the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix and the KABF will make a protein content of about 10.3 % in the final blend of flours. I do have KABF here at home, so that isn’t a problem.  I really don’t think I want to add any eggs, buttermilk, or soy flour this time.  I do have those ingredients, but will wait to see how this Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit pizza turns out. 

You are right that I don’t have any dextrose.  Do you think if I add the KABF, Clabber Girl baking powder, sugar, and IDY to the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix tonight, without the salt and water it will be okay.  I could weigh out the salt and measure the water out tomorrow and add it to the rest of the ingredients.  That way it would be much faster for me, if I am busy. 

I could mix the water and salt in the rest of the mix in the morning and watch for fermentation activity.  I would like this dough to get some fermentation activity also, to see if this crust tastes better than the Betty Crocker pizza mix I used last week.  I can understand I might need to hold back or add more water.  I will use the hot water I used last week.

How long did it take for you to figure all what might be needed to be added to the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit Mix to turn it into a pizza?  I think you could easily work for the Betty Crocker test kitchens and come up with better formulas for their pizza mixes.

Thanks for setting forth a trial dough.

Norma

[norma427]

I found this on the Betty Crocker site for a recipe. Read the comments, good for a chuckle.     
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/bisquick-pizza/df578e3c-9ca3-438b-8780-06f6ea9434c2
Don

Don,

Those comments did give me a good chuckle! 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Do you think if I add the KABF, Clabber Girl baking powder, sugar, and IDY to the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix tonight, without the salt and water it will be okay.  I could weigh out the salt and measure the water out tomorrow and add it to the rest of the ingredients.  That way it would be much faster for me, if I am busy.

 

Since the Buttermilk Bisquick mix already contains salt, baking powder and sugar (dextrose), I don't see any harm in adding the new round of dry ingredients to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. You can do that tonight if you want. Alternatively, you can make up a goody bag of the new dry items and mix them into the Buttermilk Bisquick mix tomorrow just prior to making the dough.

How long did it take for you to figure all what might be needed to be added to the Buttermilk Biscuit mix to turn it into a pizza?

I ended up spending more time on this project than I had originally planned. I had an intuitive feel for what I thought might be done with the Buttermilk Bisquick mix to adapt it to pizza use but I don't like to go through several iterations of anything I do if I can help it. I like to get things right the first time around if possible, even if that means spending more time upfront on the matter. So, I essentially reversed engineered the Buttermilk Biscuit mix and then decided what steps might be taken to modify it for your purposes. I have no idea as to whether what I came up with will work in practice. As it turned out, however, my calculated response was pretty much the same as my intuitive one. I also learned a lot in the process.

FYI, this afternoon I sent an email to Betty Crocker asking whether the dry yeast in their pizza crust mix is dead yeast. I also commented on the fermentation issue, given that it does take time for yeast to participate in the fermentation process. I will be interested in their response and explanation.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Ok, I'm confused, doesn't Bisquick have baking powder in it? What is the purpose of adding more?

Don,

I don't very often work with chemical leavening systems so before embarking on this assignment for Norma I checked out several biscuit recipes utilizing baking powder and, in some cases, buttermilk. I was looking for quantitative relationships between the various ingredients that go into such recipes, on the assumption that the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is patterned after such recipes. One of those relationships was the relationship between the amount of baking powder and the amount of flour. You are correct that the Buttermilk Bisquick mix already contains baking powder but I added six more ounces of KABF to that mix. I took the baker's percent for the baking powder that I estimated to be used in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and applied it to the added KABF flour. I did the same thing with the salt and sugar. I also added IDY. Hopefully, the combination of baking powder and yeast will give a good rise to the crust during baking. Unless this mix works and is an improvement over the mix that Norma used to make her mystery pizza, there would be no reason to use the new mix, especially when you can go out and buy the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix. Trying to convert a mix intended to be used to make biscuits to a pizza dough mix is not the most direct way of getting from point A to point B. It's more like trying to create a silk purse out of a sow's ear .

Peter

[buceriasdon]

Ah, thank you Peter,I must have missed the KABF. Mea culpa.
DOn

[norma427]

It's more like trying to create a silk purse out of a sow's ear .

Peter

Peter,

I will make a “goody bag” up tonight to be mixed into Bisquick Buttermilk mix tomorrow.

I am amazed that you could reverse engineer the Buttermilk Biscuit mix and then decided what steps needed to be taken to modify it for my purpose of making a pizza dough.  You intuition is usually good, in all the other experiments you have helped me with, which have been many. 

I would be interested in what you learned going though the process.

You have made something out of nothing many times, so maybe this formula will work with the added Bisquick Buttermilk mix.  http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/purse/index1.html

I am curious what will be Betty Crocker’s response to your email too.

I appreciate all your hard work in all the projects you have helped me with.   

Norma

[Tman1]

Pete-zza,

I recommend calling in to customer service (my wife worked there too!, hated it). They respond way faster to a phone call, if they'll tell you at all.

She (my wife) had great stories about calls into them... I'll miss that.  =]

[Pete-zza]

I am amazed that you could reverse engineer the Buttermilk Biscuit mix and then decided what steps needed to be taken to modify it for my purpose of making a pizza dough.  

I would be interested in what you learned going though the process.

Norma,

For this experiment, I tried to get a rough idea as to the baker's percents of the ingredients used in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix based on their order in the mix. Then I tried to get an accurate fix on the individual baker's percents. In this case, I was looking mostly at the values of total fat, sodium and potassium. Of those three substances, getting a handle on the fat was perhaps the easiest because most of it is in the shortening (partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil). There is also a small amount of fat in the egg (dry egg) but the egg is so far down the list that its contribution is small. Sodium can be tricky because there are multiple sources, including two of the three components in the baking powder, the egg, the buttermilk and plain old salt that is added for flavor. Potassium is mainly in the flour but there is also some in the egg, the buttermilk and the soy flour. In order to see what is in each ingredient and their amounts, I usually end up spending a fair amount of time at the SelfNutritionData website looking at the Nutrition Facts for all of the critical ingredients and calculating quantities. That is where I learn a lot. And, the more you do it, the more knowledgeable you become and the better you get at it. 

Based on the numbers on paper, I think the dough mix you now have should work, and hopefully will produce something that is edible. What I don't know is whether the pizza will be any good in the context of a short term dough and pizza with little or no yeast fermentation (unless Betty tells me otherwise). I did not have the luxury of removing anything from the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I could only add things. It's not the optimum way to design things.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I recommend calling in to customer service (my wife worked there too!, hated it). They respond way faster to a phone call, if they'll tell you at all.

Tman1,

Thanks for the suggestion. Sometimes when I am in the middle of things, as I was with this project, I will just quickly send off an email. If I don't hear back within a few days, I then call.

Peter

[norma427]

Well, to tell the truth the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix in combination with Peter’s formula turned out great!  This "Sukie" pizza was the most different pizza I have ever made.  It even had a great taste in the crust.  Sukie’s offspring would have been proud!  Great job Peter! 

I mixed the “goody bag” into the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix and added the total formula water for the buttermilk biscuit mix and the amount Peter recommended for the added ingredients.  After mixing with a rubber spatula the mixture looked okay, but since it didn’t seem as sticky as last week, I added water two times and kneaded the water in with my hands, on my marble slab.  I added a total of .40 oz. of extra water into the dough.  I didn’t make a dough ball, but let the dough rise for 2 hrs.  Then I balled the dough and let it rise for another 2 hrs. I did oil the dough ball then. The dough rose to the top of the container after 2 hrs., as can be seen in the one picture.  After balling the dough, it fermented well again.  As can be seen in the one picture of the dough ball, there was what looked like fat in the dough. 

The dough ball was easy to open.  The pizza baked well and really browned nice.  There was even a nice oven spring. The rim was moist and the crust was very good.  I never would have know, if I didn’t tried this, that such a good crust could be made in such a short while.  I would invite anyone to try this Bisquick Buttermilk mix and Peter’s formula.  That is how good I thought it was.  Steve really liked this buttermilk biscuit “Sukie” pizza too.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

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