Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Well, I'll be damned!! You mean we actually made a silk purse out of a sow's ear? I was afraid the mix would not work out and I started to write my concession speech. I hadn't planned on an acceptance speech .

Now, if someone stops you on the street and says "Ma'am, I just bought a packet of Betty Crocker's Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix at my local supermarket. Can you tell me how to make a pizza out of it?", you'll be able to say "Yes".

I assume that you made a 16" pizza out of the dough. Is that right? And how did the pizza compare with the mystery pizza you made?

BTW, I saved my notes with all the numbers. If you'd like the baker's percents for the egg, buttermilk and soy flour, I can give them to you in case you'd like to try adding more of those ingredients in a future effort.

The pizza does look good. I am impressed.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I liked your little piggies that went to market. I hope they don't end up this way: http://www.flickr.com/photos/martypinker/5469188586/.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Well, I'll be damned!! You mean we actually made a silk purse out of a sow's ear? I was afraid the mix would not work out and I started to write my concession speech. I hadn't planned on an acceptance speech .

Now, if someone stops you on the street and says "Ma'am, I just bought a packet of Betty Crocker's Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix at my local supermarket. Can you tell me how to make a pizza out of it?", you'll be able to say "Yes".

I assume that you made a 16" pizza out of the dough. Is that right? And how did the pizza compare with the mystery pizza you made?

BTW, I saved my notes with all the numbers. If you'd like the baker's percents for the egg, buttermilk and soy flour, I can give them to you in case you'd like to try adding more of those ingredients in a future effort.

The pizza does look good. I am impressed.

Peter

Peter,

You are right, we did actually make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.    I was surprised how well the Bisquick Buttermilk mix did work in combination with your formula.  I never doubted your ability to come up with a formula, but didn’t think it would work out this good.  You can plan your acceptance speech now.  

I now can tell someone if they ask me on the street, how to make a pizza out of Betty Crocker’s Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix.  Maybe Betty Crocker should take some lessons from you!  

You are correct, I did make a 16" pizza out of the mix.  As can be seen in the last picture, I didn’t open  part of the dough right. It was a little thicker in a couple of spots in the center.  I don’t know about you, but to me it almost looks like a Pizzarium crumb.  This crumb was light.  I can’t decide what this pizza crust tasted like, but it sure was different and good.  The mystery pizza was no comparison with this pizza.  The mystery pizza was okay, but this pizza had a lot of flavor in the crust.  How can that be possible in such a short amount of time?  

I probably will be interested in trying one or a combination of egg, buttermilk and soy flour.  Good you saved your notes.  What approach do you think I should try next week?  

You should be impressed, you were the one that came up with the formula.

 

Norma,

I liked your little piggies that went to market. I hope they don't end up this way: http://www.flickr.com/photos/martypinker/5469188586/.

Peter

I am glad you like my little piggies that went to market.  After the pizza turned out so well, I just went down a few stands to the variety store and purchased them.  They were only .69 cents.  I thought at least this pizza deserved something special since we did accomplish what we set out to do.  

I appreciate all your help in this pizza.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I forgot to answer you question about what happened to the little piggies.  They were put into a drawer to see if another pizza works with the Betty Crocker buttermilk biscuit mix.  They didn't end up like the picture you posted a link to.  

Norma

[Ev]

I was impressed with the outcome of this trial as well. By far, the most dramatic and interesting departure, taste-wise, from Normas' "normal" dough. Like Norma, I found the texture to be much like her earlier "Pizzerium" dough. It was hard to exactly nail down the flavor, but I'd say it had that classic "Bisquik" taste and also reminded me of an extra fluffy pancake. While I enjoyed the fairly complex flavor, by the time I finished one slice, I had the distinct sensation of becoming quite "full". Normally, a good pizza keeps me coming back for more.

[norma427]

I was impressed with the outcome of this trial as well. By far, the most dramatic and interesting departure, taste-wise, from Normas' "normal" dough. Like Norma, I found the texture to be much like her earlier "Pizzerium" dough. It was hard to exactly nail down the flavor, but I'd say it had that classic "Bisquik" taste and also reminded me of an extra fluffy pancake. While I enjoyed the fairly complex flavor, by the time I finished one slice, I had the distinct sensation of becoming quite "full". Normally, a good pizza keeps me coming back for more.

Steve,

My daughter also said the reheated slice of the Betty Crocker buttermilk biscuit mix with Peter's added formula did almost tasted like fluffy pancakes.  Her taste and yours must be about the same.  Addison also thought this pizza tasted something like fluffy pancakes.  He is one of our best taste testers.  

I have one little leftover slice, that I am going to reheat today, to be able to taste it again.

This is another picture, among my other pictures I took yesterday, that I forgot post last evening.  We sure got a chuckle out the little piggies.  

Norma

[Pete-zza]

The mystery pizza was okay, but this pizza had a lot of flavor in the crust.  How can that be possible in such a short amount of time?  

Norma,

I think that there are several possible contributors to the flavor profile of the crust for the Sukie pizza you made. Usually, when oils are used in a dough, especially if used in large amounts, there can be a rather pronounced effect on the finished crust flavor, However, with the partially-hydrogenated fats used in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, which are likely to be highly sanitized for a major retail product from a company like General Mills, it is hard to say how much those fats contribute to finished crust flavor. I can see more of an effect on mouthfeel and the texture of the finished crust. I think that the more probable contributors to crust flavor were the baking soda in the baking powders used in the dough (both from the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and the Clabber Girl baking powder) and the egg, buttermilk and soy flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I think that the addition of the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) also perhaps added its own wheaty flavor component while boosting the protein content to move the dough away from the biscuit category to the pizza category. The large amount of IDY that was used (about 0.68% of the total flour) might also have added some flavor to the finished crust, along with some fermentation byproducts, even for the short total fermentation time.

As a point of clarification, was the total fermentation time for the dough 4 hours-- two hours in rough form in the bowl and two hours in balled form?

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

To have an online record of my analysis of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, I have set forth below the baker's percents that I arrived at for that mix. I was not trying to be exact, since that would have required a lot more work, but I at least wanted to get the pecking order of the ingredients in the ballpark. I might add in this respect that I have discovered from my past work in reverse engineering products that it is not necessary to get all of the numbers exactly right. As long as the pecking order is close, the formulation can tolerate some variations in the amounts of the ingredients without having a material effect on the finished product.

100%, Flour (I assumed a bleached cake flour with fairly low protein content)
22%, Partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil
3%, Leavening (baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate, monocalcium phosphate)
2.7%, Buttermilk
1.5%, Salt
1.0%, Dextrose
0.75%, Egg
0.25%, Soy flour

When I assumed a value of 5.7 ounces for the flour component of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and applied all of the remaining baker's percents to that amount of flour, I got a total weight of about 213 ounces. That was one ounce more than the net weight of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix of 212 grams. It would have taken too much work to get the weights exactly the same but, even then, there would not have been any assurance that my numbers would have been more correct for having gone through all of the extra effort.

By adding the 6 ounces of KABF to the Buttermilk Biscuit mix, we in effect cut the amount of fat in half. I did that so the finished crust would have more of pizza texture than a biscuit texture. To have moved the needle of the mix further into pizza territory would have required adding more KABF--maybe even a lot more. That would have further diluted the effects of the fats. However, since that would also have diluted the effects of the other ingredients, such as the buttermilk, egg and soy flour, whose flavors I wanted to keep as much as possible, I opted to limit the addition of the KABF to 6 ounces. That might help explain why the finished crust had some attributes normally associated with pancakes. By the same token, that might also help explain why you liked the Sukie pizza better than the mystery pizza. While I haven't tried to reverse engineer the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix, at first blush it looks like the flour used in that mix is also a low protein flour, such as a cake flour.

To determine how much more leavening, salt and sugar (as an alternative to the dextrose) to add to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, I simply applied the baker's percents listed above for those ingredients to the 6 ounces of flour. Had I done the same thing for the buttermilk, egg and soy flour, I would have added 0.162 ounces/4.59 grams of dried buttermilk powder (about 2 1/4 t.), 0.045 ounces/1.28 grams of dried (whole) egg (about 3/4 t.), and 0.015 ounces/0.43 grams of (defatted) soy flour (about 1/4 t.).

As you can see, there is a fair amount of room to change things. It all depends on what flavor and textural attributes you would like to have in the finished pizza.

For comparison purposes, here, again, is the makeup of the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix:

Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix
Ingredients: Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley, Niacin, Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and/or Cottonseed Oil, Dextrose, Dried Yeast, Salt, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate, Baking Soda, Egg, Nonfat Milk, Soy Flour, Freshness Preserved by BHA

Peter
Edit: Corrected baker's percents

[Pete-zza]

It is interesting to hear you think the Betty Crocker Pizza mix had dead yeast (glutathione) to give the crust better flavor.  I didn’t think the yeast had enough time to transform for fermentation of the dough.  

Norma,

It looks like I was wrong on this one. I heard back from General Mills/Betty Crocker this morning with the following reply: No the yeast used in this product is a active yeast.

I was hoping to get more on the effect of using an active yeast in a very small window of about 15 minutes. Unfortunately, I did not get that. However, that doesn't rule out the possibility that the active yeast is used for flavor contribution. Also, since the yeast is listed fairly high up in the ingredients list for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix, as can be seen in my last post (there is more of the yeast than the salt), it is also possible that there can be a more rapid rise in the dough, using the natural sugars in the flour and the dextrose added to the mix. Dextrose is a form of glucose and a simple sugar, so maybe that helps get the yeast going.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

What approach do you think I should try next week?  

Norma,

I don't have anything specific in mind. But one intriguing possibility that occurs to me might be to try to do something along the lines of a pizza dough with the Cheese-Garlic Bisquick mix that you also purchased recently. However, that product is a materially more involved and complicated formulation than the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. For example, it includes vegetable oil in addition to the partially-hydrogenated fats, corn syrup solids (which is not the same as regular corn syrup), garlic, dried cheddar cheese, three other milk-derived ingredients, garlic powder, onion powder, and several chemical that you are unlikely to have in your pantry. Maybe you can make a quickie garlic version of the Mack's clone pizza, using white cheddar cheese or a blend of white cheddar cheese and mozzarella cheese, along with a Mack's-like pizza sauce.

Because of the complex and hard-to-decipher formulation of the Cheese-Garlic mix, you would perhaps really have to wing it to get to something to try out. For example, you could add some KABF, as before (maybe even increase its amount), more leavening, some IDY, and a bit more salt. Nothing else--unless you like the taste of garlic and onion powder and do not want to dilute their flavor effects because of the added KABF. For the sake of simplicity, you could use the same "goody bag" in terms of ingredients and amounts that you used for the pizza made using the Buttermilk Bisquick mix but leave out the sugar this time since the Cheese-Garlic mix already has enough sweeteners in the form of corn syrup solids, dextrose and sugar. So, diluting the effects of those ingredients might be a good thing for a Mack's type clone. The net weight of the Cheese-Garlic mix would be a bit more than the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, but the total weight would still in the range for making a 16" pizza, or you can scale back the weight of the final dough to the desired value. As before, you would have to play around with the water content in order to get the desired final dough consistency and feel. If you would like to try to make a Mack's quickie clone, you might even keep the hydration down to get the typical textural characteristics of a Mack's crust. You would also use water at a temperature as you used to make the latest pizza.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for telling me what you thought were the possible contributors to the flavor profile of the Sukie pizza.  I have to reheat the little leftover slice to see what I think of the crust taste today.  I still couldn’t believe how good that crust tasted with such a short time of fermentation.  I would have thought it had been fermented for a much longer time. I also want to taste the crust again after it is reheated to see if I can detect the sugar in the crust.  Steve mentioned yesterday he could detect a small amount of sugar in the crust, but I couldn’t.

I hope someone else tries out the Betty Crocker Buttermilk biscuit mix with your formula and sees if they get the same results in the taste of the crust.

For the point of clarification the dough was left to ferment for 2 hrs and then another 2 hrs balled.  It was 84 degrees ambient room temperature at market yesterday, give or take a few degrees.  If someone else decides to try this dough, I would think they would need to watch the dough to see if it ferments the same at a lower or different room temperature.

It is interesting from all your reverse engineering of different products, that you found you don’t need to get all the numbers exactly right, but just have them in the right pecking order.  

Your analysis of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is interesting in that you think there was 16%, Partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil added.  That is a lot of oil.  It is also interesting that you came within one gram when figuring out all the numbers in baker’s percent.  I think your idea was good to only cut the fat in half, by adding 6oz. of KABF.  I can see there is a fair amount room to change things if I or someone else wants to.

Thanks for posting that you heard back from Better Crocker/General Mills on what kind of yeast that is used in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix.  It is interesting that active yeast could give any flavor contribution in such a short time.

Before I would make any changes to the Bisquick buttermilk mix I have tried, (like adding egg, buttermilk or soy flour) I think I would like to try the cheese-garlic Bisquick mix, in an attempt next week.  I think for the sake of simplicity, I will just use the “goody bag” (you set-forth) without the sugar to see what happens. The idea of a Mack’s quickie clone sounds interesting.  What gave you the idea of a Mack’s quickie clone, relating to the cheese-garlic biscuits?  

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

When I did some research on biscuit recipes using shortening, I found that the fat content could get as high as 30-40%, at least for the recipes I looked at. Unless we wanted to end up with a deep-dish type of dough, that meant that I had to find a way of cutting back on the fat content of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I also wanted to ratchet up the protein content of the blend. That is where the KABF came in to help solve both problems. As you can see, there is both a technical and a subjective component of the exercise. Even if I was wrong on what I did, we know that adding the "goody bag" components to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix works if one follows what you did.

The Mack's clone idea hit me because of the cheddar cheese in the Cheese-Garlic mix. The idea also occurred to me to add some more cheddar (cheddar cheese powder) to the final mix (in the "goody bag") but I was afraid that if too many things are added to the dough that might compromise the rise of the dough and the oven spring.

It's entirely up to you how you would like to use the Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix. I was just trying to be creative as to a possible use within the pizza realm and how to move the mix from the biscuit realm to the pizza realm.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

When I did some research on biscuit recipes using shortening, I found that the fat content could get as high as 30-40%, at least for the recipes I looked at. Unless we wanted to end up with a deep-dish type of dough, that meant that I had to find a way of cutting back on the fat content of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I also wanted to ratchet up the protein content of the blend. That is where the KABF came in to help solve both problems. As you can see, there is both a technical and a subjective component of the exercise. Even if I was wrong on what I did, we know that adding the "goody bag" components to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix works if one follows what you did.

The Mack's clone idea hit me because of the cheddar cheese in the Cheese-Garlic mix. The idea also occurred to me to add some more cheddar (cheddar cheese powder) to the final mix (in the "goody bag") but I was afraid that if too many things are added to the dough that might compromise the rise of the dough and the oven spring.

It's entirely up to you how you would like to use the Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix. I was just trying to be creative as to a possible use within the pizza realm and how to move the mix from the biscuit realm to the pizza realm.

Peter

Peter,

I can see there is a subjective and technical component of what you did to make the Bisquick Buttermilk mix more in line with a pizza.  I can see where KABF did solve both problems of fat and higher protein.  I might be trying this same formula or one with either one of the other ingredients you mentioned before, in the coming weeks, to make sure I will get the identical results. 

I can get orange cheddar cheese powder at our local Country Store, if you think it might be a good ingredient to try in the Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix in combination with the other goodies.  I appreciate how you took the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix into the pizza realm.

I just heated a little slice of the Sukie pizza if you or anyone else is interested.  I was surprised that the reheated slice tastes as good or better than yesterday.  The rim and bottom got nice and crispy and the crumb stayed nice and moist.  I couldn’t detect any sugar in the crust when it was reheated.  The crust still tastes like a really different long fermented crust.  The slice droops, but is crispy on the rim and edges, if that makes sense.

Steve and I were talking yesterday about this pizza and from the taste of the crust and the moistness of the rim, we thought this tasted almost like the Fairmount Bagel pizza I tried on the milk kefir thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg118487.html#msg118487

If I continue to have good results with the biscuit mixes, in combination with your “goody bag”, this sure would be an easier way to make a pizza, than all the work I did for the Fairmount Bagel pizza.  I never could recreate the exact same taste with the milk kefir Fairmount Bagel pizza.

You are creative in making a biscuit mix into a pizza. 

Pictures of reheated little Sukie slice today.(the bigger slice was the manteca lard slice)

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I don't see any need to add more cheddar cheese powder to the dough, particularly if you plan to try to make a Mack's instant clone pizza. But, that is up to you. If you like the cheddar cheese flavor in the crust, then by all means add some.

Recently when I was in the supermarkets near me I checked to see if I could find the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix that you used. I could not find it in those stores. I looked for other pizza related mixes but could not find anything other than the Jiffy pizza mix and a Kroger pizza mix. Apparently in my area, people just don't make their own pizzas. Can you tell me what you paid for the three mixes you purchased?

I can now see from your latest photos how you were reminded of the Pizzarium pizzas.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

In reviewing my notes and the Nutrition Facts for the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, I discovered an error that I made when trying to calculate the amount of fat in that mix. It now appears that the total fat content may be around 22%. As a result of that change, I made a few minor adjustments to the baker's percents for some of the ingredients so that the numbers would add up correctly and I corrected some of the numbers in my earlier posts. I did not change the numbers that you used for your "goody bag" since those numbers worked out well for you. Had I made the changes, they would have been minor in any event. The major components of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix are the flour and the partially-hydrogenated fats. If my math is right this time, those two ingredients appear to make up almost 93% of the total weight of the ingredients in the mix. The rest of the ingredients make up the roughly trmaining 7% of the mix.

Fortunately, all one has to do is add the "goody bag" to the contents of a pouch of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, add water, and follow your instructions. The baker's percents for the mix itself are only material if one wants to try to make a clone of that mix.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I only noticed the Betty Crocker pizza mix I had used in my first post in some store near me, but I can’t remember where I bought that pizza mix now.  I did have it at market for a few months and told Steve, some day we would try it at market to see what would happen.  On the spur of the moment last week we decided to try it.  Now I wish I could remember where I purchased it.  I only go to a few supermarkets near me, Sam’s Club and WalMart, but now I can’t find that Betty Crocker pizza mix. When I went to my family owned supermarket, they don’t have any pizza mixes except Chef Boyardee with the sauce and cheese included with the mix. The new supermarket (Giant) that recently opened near me did have the Bisquick Buttermilk and Cheese-Garlic biscuit mixes.  They were .85 cents a piece.  I think that is about what I also paid for the Betty Crocker pizza mix.  Maybe people in my area don’t use pizza mixes either.  I wish you could find and try the Bisquick Buttermilk mix in combination with your “goody bag” to see if you also would have the same results.  

On my reheated slice, that was one slice that I didn’t have the dough opened up enough.  I should have been more careful in opening the dough, but was also surprised how much that and a couple more slices reminded me of a Pizzarium crumb.  

Since you have found your error in calculating, the fat content (22%) is a lot.  It is interesting that the flour and fat make up 93% of the ingredients.  

I wonder how a regular Original Bisquick mix would stack up to the Buttermilk mix.  It probably would also have a lot of flour and fat in baker's percents, also.

I will try the cheese-garlic Bisquick mix out next week and probably also will get another Bisquick Buttermilk mix to try in following weeks.  In my opinion and Steve’s this was one different pizza, great tasting crust, and really easy to make.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Actually, the Bisquick Original mix contains considerably less fat than the Buttermilk Bisquick mix on a per serving basis. Remember that the Bisquick Original mix is a basic one that is intended to be used to make several different types of end products. Depending on what you want to make, you have to add things like milk, butter or eggs, or some combination of these. These ingredients contain a fair amount of fat that has to be considered when calculating the total fat in the end product. Basically, the Bisquick Original mix contains only flour, fat (partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil), baking powder, dextrose and salt. You would have to add a bunch of things to it to be able to make a pizza.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Actually, the Bisquick Original mix contains considerably less fat than the Buttermilk Bisquick mix on a per serving basis. Remember that the Bisquick Original mix is a basic one that is intended to be used to make several different types of end products. Depending on what you want to make, you have to add things like milk, butter or eggs, or some combination of these. These ingredients contain a fair amount of fat that has to be considered when calculating the total fat in the end product. Basically, the Bisquick Original mix contains only flour, fat (partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil), baking powder, dextrose and salt. You would have to add a bunch of things to it to be able to make a pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that the Original Bisquick would need a lot of other ingredients added to be able to make a pizza.  I was just curious because the first four ingredients are what is listed in the buttermilk biscuit mix. I know I have tried the Original Bisquick in many kinds of the products over the years, and knew I had to add other ingredients.

I understand that the Original Bisquick does have a lower fat per one serving.  

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I perhaps should have said that you may have to do things with the Bisquick Original mix to make a dough and pizza that you would consider worthy. If you do a Google search, you will find all kinds of pizzas made with the Bisquick Original mix. What I read when I did such a search I didn't find particularly inspiring.

Peter