Author Topic: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday  (Read 41478 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #200 on: May 21, 2011, 08:03:56 AM »

I sent a request for a sample or samples of spray dried shortening powder to Bluegrass Dairy and Food, Inc.  On the bottom of this page, it can be seen what kinds of dried shortening powder they carry if you click on View Our Non-Dairy Creamer Products >>

http://www.bluegrassdairy.com/creamers_and_shortening_powders.html

Article on maximizing convenience with bakery mixes and some parts about fats in bakery mixes.

http://www.foodproductdesign.com/articles/1998/09/maximizing-convenience-with-bakery-mixes.aspx

I read this part of a book about dry shortening and other ingreidents in  making biscuit mixes in a Google book.  There is also has a Blueberry Muffin formula on page 446.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WKY0h5YrQVwC&pg=PA438&lpg=PA438&dq=encapsulated+shortening+for+biscuit+mixes&source=bl&ots=c35rIwI5VR&sig=6rfYRew6KujXX6-RBpwhpSRl10Q&hl=en&ei=mp_XTcK8D9TOgAe32-BX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

This part of a patent from Pillsbury that says high fat (shortening chips) are used.
http://ip.com/patent/USRE36785

Another patent for biscuits that says shortening is present in a physical form selected from the group consisting of ribbons, chips, plasticized shortening and other information.

http://invention.patentpot.com/invest54/patent5458903_High-fat-biscuit-mix-and-products-resulting-therefrom-5458903/

This patent for dry mix biscuits reads about Fats and fatty oils useful in producing shortening consistent with the invention include  soybean oil, cottonseed oil and others. Different working  samples (10) including working sample 1, as provided below.

Working Example 1 Percent Ingredient (Wt-%)
______________________________________

Hard Flour 11.11
Soft Flour 33.00
Water 29.15
Shortening (Plastic)
12.10
Shortening Chip 5.20
Buttermilk 2.97
Soda 1.09
Sodium Acid 0.88
Pyrophosphate
Sodium Aluminum 0.44
Phosphate
Mono Calcium 0.19
Phosphate
Sugar 1.24
Corn Solids 0.74
Salt 0.99
Albumen 0.30
Caseinate 0.40
Dairy Flavor 0.20

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5458903.html

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #201 on: May 21, 2011, 12:19:17 PM »
Norma,

When I was doing my searches on this subject, I ran into the Bluegrassdairy.com website and noted that one can request samples. Are they for free, and do you have to be in a business to get them?

I thought that the article at http://www.foodproductdesign.com/articles/1998/09/maximizing-convenience-with-bakery-mixes.aspx was very interesting and informative. I recall from articles that Tom Lehmann has written that it is possible to add fats to a "goody bag", but I would imagine that most commercial premixes, like those from GM, use a dry form of oils, especially the partially hydrogenated forms.

At some point, you might consider calling Weisenberger Mill (http://www.weisenberger.com/) and see if anyone there will tell you their source of the shortening powders, like the one used in their Pizza Crust Mix. I am sure that there are several companies in the field but it might shortcut your work sorting through those sources. I found the person I spoke with at Weisenberger Mill yesterday to be very open and helpful is discussing their products. They might not tell you their source of the shortening products but it can't hurt to ask.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #202 on: May 21, 2011, 01:04:08 PM »
Peter,

I just used the contact page at Bluegrassdairy.com, so I donít know if know if I will get samples, or if someone has to be a business to get them.  If I donít get any contact from them until later next week, I will call them.

I also think GM does used some form of dried oil or oils in their mixes.

I now have contacted Cooperative Purchasers about maybe getting a sample or purchasing a small amount of dextrose.  It seems there are different types of dextrose that are used in the food industry. http://www.cooperativepurchasers.com/   http://www.cooperativepurchasers.com/Ingredients/Dextrose/How-Is-Dextrose-Monohydrate-Used.html

I also contacted the same company about Phosphates.  http://www.cooperativepurchasers.com/Ingredients/Phosphates/

Another place I contacted was:http://www.abiteccorp.com/i_templates/administration/tinymce/uploaded/File/ABITEC%20Brochures/ABITEC%20-%20Food_Flavor_Nutrition.pdf and http://www.abiteccorp.com/i_templates/administration/tinymce/uploaded/File/Caprol%20Tech%20Data/Abitec_Greenetics_Chart_FINAL_WF.pdf about soybean and cottonseeed oils.

Next week I will call Weisenberger Mill and see if anyone can tell me where their source is for shortening powders.  Thanks for suggesting it to me, to give me less work.  It never hurts to ask.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #203 on: May 22, 2011, 09:11:58 AM »
I donít know if this article is accurate or not, but it says, commercial mixes such as Bisquik use All purpose flours.  http://www.ehow.com/facts_7148362_baking-mix-vs_-flour.html

On another forum there is a recipe for fake Bisquick.  I donít know how that would work out in combination with one of the ďgoody bagsĒ or not.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/index.php/t-245807.html

There also are other recipes for making home made Biquick, one being: http://www.grouprecipes.com/105486/home-made-bisquick.html

In Google books there is a reference to types of dextrose used in baking mixes.  It seems like dextrose hydrate is used by most food processors.  It also mentions of Polydextrose used for lower sugar content in other articles. Definition of polydextrose http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydextrose

Norma
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Offline jgestner

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #204 on: May 22, 2011, 10:47:23 AM »
Hi Norma and Peter
Here is a link to a bisquick like baking mix. http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sandra-lee/all-purpose-baking-mix-recipe2/index.html

I know it's Sandra Lee but it looks like works. Maybe worth a look anyway. Your pizzas look great, both with the baking mix and regular doughs.

Have fun.

John in Merrill
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 10:57:51 AM by jgestner »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #205 on: May 22, 2011, 11:14:15 AM »
Norma,

I don't pay much attention to outfits like eHow. eHow is considered to be what is called a "content farm" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_farm). Content farming has become a big business. In this case, eHow is owned by Demand Media Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Media), which may well be the largest firm of its type. This is somewhat an oversimplication and may not be a complete explanation, but companies like Demand Media use search engine optimization (SEO) methods where, among other things, they study the search terms that are most frequently used on Google searches and they create articles, using people hired to create them (they are not paid much per article), based on those search terms. They tie in those articles with other eHow articles and a lot of advertising. And they do all of this so that eHow and their other properties show up near the top of Google search results when people use Google (which has the largest market share in online search--around 72%) for searching. There are now several companies that specialize in SEO (e.g., http://www.findmycompany.com/?referral=google&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SEO%2BOptimization&gclid=CM_Jkr7h-6gCFdI32god1mFKRw).

And it is not only companies like Demand Media that use SEO. I read recently that Huffington Post, which was recently purchased by AOL for about $315 million, with Arianna getting about $18 million of that, also uses SEO. The AOL purchase irritated a lot of the Huff Post writers, many of whom write for free (but can plug their own products). The only "content farm" I trust on pizza making is this forum. I might add as a footnote that Google changed its algorithms after getting a lot of compaints from advertisers on Google that content farms were hogging all of the top spots on search results and moving them far down the list and being missed by searchers (it is very common for searchers to look at only the first page or two of hits).

On the matter of clones of Bisquick mixes, early on in this thread I conducted several Google searches looking for such clones. I found quite a few. But just about all of them were on blogs or recipe sites that are like content farms. The creators of those clones were usually home cooks who just threw a bunch of ingredients together, apparently with success based on their reports. However, I did not find a single instance where the creator of a Bisquick mix clone did so using reverse engineering analysis. So, I could not take those efforts seriously.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 12:57:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #206 on: May 22, 2011, 12:19:22 PM »
Here is a link to a bisquick like baking mix. http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sandra-lee/all-purpose-baking-mix-recipe2/index.html

John in Merrill,

The Sandra Lee recipe is not all that bad. But it could use some sugar in a baker's percent that is greater than the baker's percent for the salt. Dextrose would be even better. However, on the matter of the type of flour, if you look at the ingredients list for the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix as shown below, you would have to conclude that the only protein in the formulation is in the flour. Unless the partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil(s) is spray coated with a dairy-based ingredient, which might have a small amount of protein, there is no protein (or it would be de minimus) in any of the other ingredients. When I tried to reverse engineer the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, I came up with a percent protein in the flour used in the Bisquick mix that was below the protein content of all-purpose flour (I was assuming something around 10+%). My best guess is that the Bisquick flour is either cake flour or pastry flour, or possibly a blend that has a protein content in the cake/pastry flour range, possibly a GM/Sperry bleached cake/pastry flour with a protein content of around 9%. With the rounding of numbers that the regulators allow in Nutrition Facts, it is hard to get an exact fix.

In my analysis, I used an iterative process in which I tested many combinations of quantities of ingredients to come up with the required weight (both the net weight in a pouch or box), so I can't say for sure that I got the exact amount of flour or other ingredient in the mix. One would have to do a side-by-side test using the clone mix against the real thing. Even then, it would be hard to say because we, as retail level consumers, do not have easy access to the same types of commercial ingredients used by GM in its mixes. I think Norma would like to try to find sources of those ingredients to use them in her clones.

Peter

« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 03:59:58 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #207 on: May 22, 2011, 01:09:16 PM »
John in Merrill,

Thanks for providing the Sandra Lee Biquick like mix.  :) I appreciate you posted that you like the baking mix pizzas and my other pizzas.  I am going to try another mystery pizza Tuesday.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #208 on: May 22, 2011, 01:25:15 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for explaining what ďcontent farmsĒ are.  I didnít understand before how they worked before, or what they were. I can now understand why you only trust the information that is here on the forum.  I didnít see any single instance where the creator of a Bisquick mix, created a clone either.  I will have to do my searches more carefully now, since you have explained everything.  I know you have researched many products and pizza information on the web, so I would trust what you posted. 

You are right in your post to John in Merril, that I would like to find sources that GM really uses in their mixes.  I am working on finding the commercial products that GM might be using.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #209 on: May 22, 2011, 02:17:18 PM »
Norma,

Sometime, just for fun, go to eHow and do a search on "pizza" and see what you get. Also, note all of the ads and their placement, wiki-like links, and also all of the references to other articles--all crammed into the space of a page--and how they collectively almost make it difficult to read the actual content of the article. You will always learn something. Otherwise, the site could not exist.

Out of curiosity, I did a Google Custom search on the eHow website using "pizzamaking.com" as a search term. I wanted to see if they refer users to other sites, including our forum. I got 199 hits. When I tightened up the search to leave out "pizza making" with a space between the two words, I got one hit. It was a Reference at the bottom of the page to a post by Randy back in 2004, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=711.0. They don't want you to wander off of the farm to places like our forum. If they did, people serious about their pizza making would never return to eHow on pizza related topics.

While you are at it, you might also do a "Bisquick" eHow search if you don't mind looking at 360 hits. If you do a "Bisquick homemade" search, you will get 142 hits.

Also, try a Google search using the terms pizza making, with or without quotes, and see what you get. That will show you the power of placement in Google searches.

When I do searches on pizza matters, I skip over the search results that turn up eHow, livestrong and other content farms (CookEatShare may not be a content farm as such but it is one that could drive me to drink). For other search topics, I might look at the content farms just to get an idea as to where else to search for what I am looking for.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 04:08:57 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #210 on: May 22, 2011, 04:12:11 PM »
Norma,

Sometime, just for fun, go to eHow and do a search on "pizza" and see what you get. Also, note all of the ads and their placement, wiki-like links, and also all of the references to other articles--all crammed into the space of a page--and how they collectively almost make it difficult to read the actual content of the article. You will always learn something. Otherwise, the site could not exist.

Out of curiosity, I did a Google Custom search on the eHow website using "pizzamaking.com" as a search term. I wanted to see if they refer users to other sites, including our forum. I got 199 hits. When I tightened up the search to leave out "pizza making" with a space between the two words, I got one hit. It was a Reference at the bottom of the page to a post by Randy back in 2004, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=711.0. They don't want you to wander off of the farm to places like our forum. If they did, people serious about their pizza making would never return to eHow on pizza related topics.

While you are at it, you might also do a "Bisquick" eHow search if you don't mind looking at 360 hits. If you do a "Bisquick homemade" search, you will get 142 hits.

Also, try a Google search using the terms pizza making, with or without quotes, and see what you get. That will show you the power of placement in Google searches.

When I do searches on pizza matters, I skip over the search results that turn up eHow, livestrong and other content farms (CookEatShare may not be a content farm as such but it is one that could drive me to drink). For other search topics, I might look at the content farms just to get an idea as to where else to search for what I am looking for.

Peter

Peter,

I have printed out your instructions on searching and will do that soon.  I just tried to search Normaís Pizza, Normaís Pizza Rootís Market, and Normaís Pizza Rootís Market Lancaster, Pa.  I donít know how I show up on the first two pages, but I think there is too much information about me on the web.  :o I am not even a pizza business with a website, but a small farmerís market stand holder.  I wonder how all that information can be stopped. 

From your instructions, that will help me to search information better.  I know at times, I can keep searching and I sure donít want the searching to drive me to drink.  Searching for information with all the true and untrue information on the web, can sometimes be hard.  I think I had a better handle on searching now.  Thanks!  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #211 on: May 22, 2011, 04:38:07 PM »
Peter,

I was just putting things in Google and put in Norma on pizzamaking.com. and this is what I found on page 2 on Google.  I was interesting to see the results for inbound and outbound links to this forum. http://boardreader.com/domain/pizzamaking.com

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #212 on: May 22, 2011, 04:50:56 PM »
Norma,

Since Bisquick is a dominant theme in this thread, I did a Google search using just the terms Norma and Bisquick. When the search turned up a lot of hits with the word "normal", I tightened up the search to exclude that word. The second hit in the search results after doing that was for the Sukie pizza that you posted over at Slice, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/05/my-pie-monday-20110509-slideshow.html#show-158878. I did not even know that you had posted a photo of the Sukie pizza there. I also see that a commenter asked for your recipe.

The more you reveal about yourself on the Internet, the harder it becomes to retreat. Eric Schmidt of Google once commented that the day may come where people find that they have to change their names legally to escape all the things they posted and said on the Internet.

Peter

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #213 on: May 22, 2011, 06:14:47 PM »
Norma,

Since Bisquick is a dominant theme in this thread, I did a Google search using just the terms Norma and Bisquick. When the search turned up a lot of hits with the word "normal", I tightened up the search to exclude that word. The second hit in the search results after doing that was for the Sukie pizza that you posted over at Slice, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/05/my-pie-monday-20110509-slideshow.html#show-158878. I did not even know that you had posted a photo of the Sukie pizza there. I also see that a commenter asked for your recipe.

The more you reveal about yourself on the Internet, the harder it becomes to retreat. Eric Schmidt of Google once commented that the day may come where people find that they have to change their names legally to escape all the things they posted and said on the Internet.

Peter

Peter,

At least for me, when I put the words, normaís bisquick pizza, the first entry is also the one I get at Slice.  I did email the Sukie pizza to MPM, and Rodzilla did ask me for the recipe for the crust, which I then linked to this thread.

I can understand now, the more that is revealed about yourself, the harder it is to retreat.  That is scarey that Eric Schmidt of Google once commented that the day will come that people will have to change their names legally.  I know the internet is a powerful tool for learning, but also is intimidating in some ways.

I guess it is time to try another mystery pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #214 on: May 22, 2011, 09:36:41 PM »
I went to our local family run supermarket this evening, and while I was there I decided to look at the bread and other products that our local supermarket makes.  When I looked at the different breads and other baked products that they mix and bake, on some of the breads and other products, dextrose, partially hydrogenated vegetable oil (soybean and cottonseed oils), and sodium aluminum phosphate were listed as the ingredients.  Although the bakery department wasnít opened this evening, I talked to the ladies that were working at the deli department.  I asked them if they knew where the bakery department purchases their ingredients.  They said they werenít sure, but took my phone number and said the bakery department will get back to me tomorrow, and they would tell me where they purchase those ingredients.  I then thought I wonder if they purchase those ingredients from Dutch Valley.  I looked on Dutch Valley product catalog and they do sell partially hydrogenated vegetable oil (soybean and cottonseed oils) http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/1387e298-c324-4811-ab48-ab96316871e3 and http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/5b536110-689f-410e-80cd-bbec68058378 The Nutrifacts are listed for both products. I am not sure if they are dry products or not.  
I am also now wondering whether the Red Star Angel Cream is anything like sodium aluminum phosphate. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/cdd7a1aa-0489-4e02-9922-eea53944cfc7 or if the double acting baking powder http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/45bfd3dc-b184-4577-ac93-92556dcf2950 is anything like what Bisquick might be using. They also have another double acting baking powder that is also aluminum free.

 
Dutch Valley also carries dextrose http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/1928717d-1f4c-40d3-bb74-24a8c7e52bae

Dutch Valley also carries a Pizza Dough mix, but it is in 50 lb. bags. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/91d67f0d-4c4a-4085-8f20-46cd4e2ffb53

Norma
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 09:39:20 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #215 on: May 23, 2011, 09:36:28 AM »
Norma,

There are a couple of supermarkets near me that have in-store baking facilities but just about all of the products they bake come from commissaries somewhere. I don't know if that is the case with the supermarket you mentioned. However, someone must be supplying the basic ingredients. Maybe you can get a few names of bakery ingredients suppliers.

The two partially hydrogenated oil products you noted at Dutch Valley seem to have lipid profiles (total fat and saturated fat and trans fat) that mirror what General Mills appears to be using (based on their Nutrition Facts) but they are specifically stated to be for icings. When I researched partially hydrogenated oils at the SelfNutritionData website, I found many such products tied to specific applications, like frying, icing, cooking, tortillas, etc. I did not see any application that was directed to mixes. I would think that you would want to test something for that particular application. If you get deeper into this aspect, you might find what the options are.

The Red Star Angel Cream and the double-acting baking powders that you spotted at Dutch Valley are not the same as what General Mills is using as a leavening agent. GM is using a specific combination of baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate (aka SALP), and monocalcium phosphate. When I did my searching early on, I could not find that combination as a standalone product. Maybe the GM leavening agent is formulated specifically for GM. I would think that the companies that make baking powders would be able to do something like that. Maybe they already do. However, I was not able to fnd that product.

The dextrose available from Dutch Valley seems to be the right product.

Peter

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #216 on: May 23, 2011, 10:11:49 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for your help in going over the ingredients from Dutch Valley to see if they would compare to the ingredients GM uses.  I never heard of SALP.  Maybe the SALP product is specially formulated for GM.  Itís good to know that at least the dextrose that Dutch Valley carries seems to be right.  

I talked to the bakery manager, this morning, at our local family owned store about the ingredients I was looking for and the bakery manager told me they get frozen doughs to make their bread from ATW
I did contact ATW by using the contact page for their company. http://www.atvbakery.com/ to see if I can get more information on where they purchase their ingredients.

I also called Lentz and the customer service lady said they donít carry any soybean or cottonseed oil in dried forms.  She then gave me the phone numbers of   http://www.centralsoya.com/ and I looked at their website and I donít think they would have the kind of oil I am looking for.  The customer service lady also gave me another company that might be carrying the kind of oil I am looking for.  It is called Bunge.  I have contacted them on their contact page.  These are the kinds of oil Bunge carries.  http://www.bungenorthamerica.com/products/bunge-oils/usa/non-food/index.shtml

I donít have any more time today, to do more calling, but will work on finding the ingredients or maybe samples later on this week, that GM might be using.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #217 on: May 23, 2011, 02:58:00 PM »
Norma,

I know that you already know a lot about chemical leavening systems, but if you are going to be looking for commercial sources of such chemical leavening systems, you mind find it helpful to have a more detailed understanding of the specific chemical leavening systems used in the General Mills/Betty Crocker mixes. So I will give you a little lesson in the chemistry of chemical leavening systems, both generally and in the specific GM context.

All of the GM mixes we have researched and you have used in the course of this thread use a double-acting baking powder. A double-acting baking powder has essentially three active components--a base and two acids. The base component is typically baking soda (bicarbonate of soda). There are other possible candidates for the base component, such as some non-sodium base components, but in the great majority of the cases, the base component is baking soda. In the presence of a liquid, the baking soda acts with the acids to produce carbon dioxide (plus water). It is this carbon dioxide that causes the mixture and final product to rise. In the case of the two acids, one is selected to work quickly with the baking soda, typically at room temperature, and the other acid is selected to work at high temperatures, as during the cooking or baking of the final product. Having both types of acids means that you don't have to rush to make the final product. For example, if you had only one acid and it was fast acting, you would have to work quickly to make the product in question before the leavening power is depleted or materially reduced. Baking powders that include a base and only one acid are called "single-acting" baking powders. These have largely been supplanted by double-acting baking powders. Also, many aluminum-based baking powders (but not the ones used by GM) have been replaced by baking powders without any aluminum.

All of the GM mixes have a leavening system that comprises baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate, and monocalcium phosphate. The monocalcium phosphate is the fast-acting acid and the sodium aluminum phosphate (SALP) is the slow-acting acid. The amounts of the chemical leavening system in the mixes and the amounts of the three components of the chemical leavening systems are established based on the types of products to be made with the mixes. For example, the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix is intended to be used to make a wide variety of end products, including pancakes, waffles, shortcake, crusts, biscuits, and so on. Consequently, the chemical leavening system in that mix has to be able to lift the final product, no matter what it is, once a liquid (e.g., water or milk) and other ingredients are added (eggs, for example). In some cases, the user has to add more baking powder, for example, to get super puffy pancakes, or more baking soda, for example, if buttermilk, which is an acidic ingredient (called an acidulant), is added to the mixture and, as a result, increased the acidity of the mixture. I am sure that the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix (with buttermilk powder) adjusts the amount of its chemical leavening system, and possibly the individual components, to make it unnecessary for the end user to add more baking powder.

On of the things that I wondered was whether GM uses an encapsulated leavening system. To answer this question, I called The Wright Group and spoke with one of its technical personnel. The Wright Group is a producer of a product called WRISE that is a combination of baking soda and SALP. The encapsulation medium is palm oil. The encapsulation serve to prevent the SALP from acting with the baking soda until baking, not before. This makes the WRISE product especially useful for take-and-bake doughs where consumers often ignore or don't follow or disabuse instructions for storing and using the take-and-bake pizza. In cases like this, the yeast can stop working. The WRISE insures that there is a rise in the pizza once baking commences, even if the yeast is gone or comatose. The person I spoke with at The Wright Group told me that he does not believe that GM uses encapsulation of its leavening system. When I asked him why he felt this was so, he said it was cost. I asked him if he thought it was likely that GM is using cornstarch in its chemical leavening systems, and he answered that he thought that such is the case. This is quite common, and if you look at your Clabber Girl ingredients list, I think you will see cornstarch as one of its ingredients. The cornstarch is used to keep the base and acids from starting to work prematurely, that is, before an end user uses the mix to make something. I was also told that the moisture in the flour(s) used in the GM mixes would be diluted by all of the other ingredients and shouldn't prematurely start the chemical activity between the baking soda and the acids.

You can read more about the WRISE product at http://www.thewrightgroup.net/images/stories/pdf/wrise/wrise_101595.pdf. I was told that WRISE would work for the type of pizza mix application you are considering but I suspect that you would have to add a fast-acting acid. I would rather have you find a source of a chemical leavening system that is like the one used by GM. You can also read more about specific elements of chemical leavening systems at http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C12/C12Links/www.cosmocel.com.mx/english/c-leave.htm.

Peter

« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 03:30:49 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #218 on: May 23, 2011, 06:11:13 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for taking the time for the chemistry lesson about commercial sources of leavening systems, so I can understand more how they work.  I do now understand what makes those kinds of chemical leavening systems work. 

Itís good you did your detective work and called the Wright group.  That seems to eliminate GM from using an encapsulated leavening system, because of cost.  I do see the cornstarch listed as one of the ingredients on the Clabber Girl Double Acting baking powder.  I wonder if GM does used cornstarch in their mixes why they donít have to list cornstarch as one of the ingredients.  Maybe it has to do with having such a small amount that it doesnít need to be listed.  I can understand the cornstarch could be the buffering agent, so the base and acid wouldnít work prematurely.

I would rather find a chemical leavening system like GM uses.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #219 on: May 23, 2011, 09:20:49 PM »
Norma,

If you do a Google search using the search terms "sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum phosphate, monocalcium phosphate" (in quotes as shown), you will find a fairly wide variety of applications of that leavening system, including many directed to chicken breadings and pancake and similar mixes. This leads me to believe that there are companies out there somewhere that must be selling such a leavening system, either alone or with cornstarch.

Peter