How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough

[NY pizzastriver]

Jim,

There was actually a series of posts on this subject, starting at Reply 39 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg77237.html#msg77237. I'm sure that there are people who will be discouraged from trying the basic recipe because of a lack of a means to measure out minuscule amounts of yeast. Or else, the math to do it will scare them off.

Yes, well picking up where we left off here I decided to FINALLY make this last night. Ok so it took me awhile. Cool temps aided the process, and on the yeast issue... well I just used about a 10th of a teaspoon and hoped for the best. Be that 10x too much or spot on the results were fabulous! The rest was exactly as in post 1 in this thread, and I thought other newcomers should be refreshed on this concept.

What a dry dough, when you first knead this 55% mass it's like modeling clay. I cant see a mixer being happy with it so I'm glad I hand kneaded from the start. Once it sat balled, oiled, and contained on counter for 18 hrs it was a different story. It had doubled indeed at 60-65 degrees, and the second knead was like butter. I saw Peter's point about doing this to  regain elasticity, it needed this. After another 4hrs it bounced right back to same appearance as 4 hours prior. I took the first profile shot below after 2nd rise.

When I took it out it reminded me of a Jerry Mac pie in the stretch. Loads of bubbles, airy, thick, elastic but stretched with coaxing to 15". (went 1 inch bigger than 14" in post) Some thin and thick areas made for an adventurous pizza. Something new with every slice! True though. Some really nice thin crunchy cracker-esque slices, some thicker chewier slices. Both wonderful. The flavor was amazing for a 1 day, or for a 5 day. The rim was light inside yet crackly outside and it all had a unique flavor I never tasted, but that I just love. A hint of sourness, I dunno, it was definitely different and delicious though.

I recommend this to all 1-3 day Lehmann makers... Save the fridge space/get better results!
This is a definite add in my arsenal of pizza making weaponry.

Cheers

[Essen1]

Jimbo,

That's a fine looking pie! It has a distinct artisan look to it.

Seems like you haven't lost your touch, Bro 

[NY pizzastriver]

Thanks Mike. Yeah man, what a nice pizza. On the first bite I said 'wow' right away when the dough hit the palate. I'm sure you've done this 100x already, but very unique flavor. It was the sort of pizza that when you eat you're audibly grunting "MMMM" on your exhales, you can relate I know.

Peace!

ps, Did I mention there's no refrigerator used here?!?!?! It just 'sits around', AMAZING! 

[Essen1]

Thanks Mike. Yeah man, what a nice pizza. On the first bite I said 'wow' right away when the dough hit the palate. I'm sure you've done this 100x already, but very unique flavor. It was the sort of pizza that when you eat you're audibly grunting "MMMM" on your exhales, you can relate I know.

Peace!

ps, Did I mention there's no refrigerator used here?!?!?! It just 'sits around', AMAZING! 

I know exactly what you mean, Jim. Was that also your signature sauce? Damn, come to think of it, I have still to try to make it your way! 

[norma427]

Jim,

Your pizza looks very artisan!    I really like how there are so many bubbles in the skin.  Great job.  

Norma

[NY pizzastriver]

I know exactly what you mean, Jim. Was that also your signature sauce? Damn, come to think of it, I have still to try to make it your way! 

No man, today I used some Prego from the jar. Yep, added some oregano and called it a day, yep.

YES IT WAS MY SAUCE! 

Yeah go make some sauce, you're too good at the rest not to!

Norma, Thanks! Yeah was it bubbly alright.  Pete's gonna chime in to tell me I used 10x too much yeast any second, so I'll take the praise now before the wrath! He also made his in a room about 25 degrees hotter though, might be why mine worked out ok.

[StrayBullet]

A really interesting read and last post!

I made my first pie this weekend using a natural starter a got extremely similar results based on your descriptions.  I just posted in that thread and pointed to the starter as having a big impact on the crumb turning out like it did.  But after reading this, I have to say it has more to do with the fermentation type/time and the mixing.

I also did a bulk rise at room temp for 10 hours, then split into balls and formed.  They sat out for another 4-5 hours after that.  I produced the best crumb I've ever been able to achieve at home and this just drives home why!

Thanks!!!!  And I can't until this weekend so I can do it again

[Essen1]

No man, today I used some Prego from the jar. Yep, added some oregano and called it a day, yep.

YES IT WAS MY SAUCE! 

Whew! Thank God you didn't... 

[NY pizzastriver]

A really interesting read and last post!

I made my first pie this weekend using a natural starter a got extremely similar results based on your descriptions.  I just posted in that thread and pointed to the starter as having a big impact on the crumb turning out like it did.  But after reading this, I have to say it has more to do with the fermentation type/time and the mixing.

I also did a bulk rise at room temp for 10 hours, then split into balls and formed.  They sat out for another 4-5 hours after that.  I produced the best crumb I've ever been able to achieve at home and this just drives home why!

Thanks!!!!  And I can't until this weekend so I can do it again

Thanks stray, glad this was helpful. The thing about this that really made it nice, I think, was one ball rose alone. This will ferment faster than 10 for example just based on volume. That said I'd say your starter was probably a bigger factor than you think in  cruising things along. Just some thoughts, and congrats on the success!

[NY pizzastriver]

Whew! Thank God you didn't... 

Could you imagine, me, Mr "You gotta cook real sauce!, You're all using raw ketchup!" using sauce out of a jar? I'd be exiled, shunned, dubbed a fraud, and banned for life! You'd all talk about me in 5 years and say "Oh yeah, I remember 'NY fancy sauce guy', turned out he really used Prego! Bahahahaha....".

[Pete-zza]

Pete's gonna chime in to tell me I used 10x too much yeast any second, so I'll take the praise now before the wrath! He also made his in a room about 25 degrees hotter though, might be why mine worked out ok.

Jim,

LOL. Since you didn't tell us what your dough formulation was, including the amount of flour, there is no way for me to calculate how much yeast you used from a baker's percent standpoint. Unfortunately, the hardest part of the exercise is determining the amount of yeast to use for a given room temperature. Otherwise, the dough is pretty easy to make.

I agree with the others that your pizza has an artisan appearance. It looks very inviting. I am glad you got around to trying out the room temperature fermentation method for the NY style. It is really an adaptation of the Neapolitan method.

Peter

[NY pizzastriver]

Peter,

I know I talk a lot and it's hard to catch all I say, but the info was in there, now underlined.

on the yeast issue... well I just used about a 10th of a teaspoon and hoped for the best. Be that 10x too much or spot on the results were fabulous! The rest was exactly as in post 1 in this thread

So same as post 1, your original formula from 2008, 55% hydro.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332

On page 3 or so I started asking about it and the 10th of a 10th of a teaspoon of IDY. I just used the whole 10th! Again though you had much higher summer temps at the time, I'd decrease that in summer as well. At 65 degrees or so it behaved well, never blew up, rose right on schedule.

Thanks for the compliments, it really is a great method, what a flavor. Another q I have, I used a regular plastic container and hole poked lid as you can see. Is glass preferable here?

[Pete-zza]

Jim,

I did read the underlined portion but thought you were referring to the dough making method rather than the dough formulation per se. In any event, if you used 1/10th of a teaspoon of IDY, that would come to 0.1121% on a baker's percent basis. That is considerably higher than what I originally used but, as you noted, I was making the dough at a much higher room temperature.

FYI, I believe that you could have used November's mathematical method described at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572 to calculate how much yeast would be needed to have the dough double in about 20 hours but using your room temperature of 65 degrees F rather than the room temperature I used (around 82 degrees F, or 27.8 degrees C). My dough protocol (amount of yeast and initial fermentation period of 20 hours) would be used for the Reference Rate calculation. For the Predicted Rate calculation, you would use the same duration (20 hours) but you would use your room temperature of 65 degrees F, or 18.33 degrees C. You would need to use a scientific calculator to do the calculations. I used to use an online version but it is no longer available. However, the one at http://www.calculator-tab.com/ looks like it should work. 

I think one of the reasons why your dough turned out so well is that you were using a room temperature of 65 degrees F for fermentation purposes. That is in the sweet spot, for both yeast and enzyme performance. I discussed some of these aspects earlier in this thread at Reply 68 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78722/topicseen.html#msg78722. I think you can see why it is much more preferable to try to control the fermentation temperature than to be constantly re-calculating the amount of yeast to use based on changing room temperatures.

With respect to the material (glass or plastic) of the container used to hold the dough ball, I used a glass container. A glass container has good thermal conductance and you can easily see and monitor the dough in such a container. However, plastic is also a good choice for a storage container. If you are satisfied with your plastic container and the results you achieved, I don't think I would switch to glass. One would have to compare the thermal conductance of the plastic or glass containers you use to see if the material would alter the performance of the dough under similar conditions.

Peter

[NY pizzastriver]

Peter,

Thanks a lot, and great info as always. Good to remember that 60-65 sweet spot in the future. I looked at the calculator, and formulas you mentioned like this...

"RF1 = sin (19 / 36)2.1"

and I said ''THIS is what makes him the ''Pete-zza-pedia'' that he is, he actually gets things like this!'' I figure it says '1 Regular Folk sins 19 out of 36 times, or 1 out of 2 given chances on average.' I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

Golden ratios indeed, and more power to ya!

 

[Pete-zza]

About a year and a half ago, at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg76431.html#msg76431, I took a stab at replicating Brian Spangler's dough as used at Apizza Scholls (http://www.apizzascholls.com/) at that time, based on the results of my research at the time on that dough. Recently, through the generosity of the man himself, Brian Spangler, the forum has been made privy to his current dough formulation and related methods, as embodied in parts of the threads at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg111975.html#msg111975 and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12783.msg123496.html#msg123496. Some of those methods apparently were in effect at the time I entered the post at Reply 17. So, as a result, I have edited Reply 17 to reflect those changes.

I hope soon to post the dough formulation for the current dough recipe that Brian uses at Apizza Scholls, both for the 18" size and the 12" size that is apparently available to solo patrons at the bar, and perhaps a useful formulation for those whose ovens/configurations cannot accommodate 18" pizzas. I will post the formulations in this thread in order to keep everything I have done or know about the formulations together. This should allow members to try both the former and the new formulation.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Following up on my last post, I have set forth below two dough formulations for Brian Spangler’s dough. The first dough formulation is for the 18” size, which is the standard size offered at Apizza Scholls. The second dough formulation is for the 12” size, which I understand is offered to solo patrons at the bar. That size might be more convenient for those whose ovens may not be able to accommodate the larger size, or for experimental purposes before graduating to the larger size. Previously, for the benefit of member widespreadpizza (Marc), I came up with a dough formulation for several 16” pizzas, at Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg124161.html#msg124161. For some, that is another option.

To come up with the two dough formulations set forth below, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. That tool was not designed to handle the type of math needed to create the three parts of Brian’s dough recipe, including the Total Formula, the Preferment (Poolish), and the Final Mix. However, I found a way to use the tool to come up with a clean formatting of data with all the numbers in the right place. First, I used the tool to create the Total Formula, based on information that Brian provided. Then, using pencil and paper and a desk calculator, I came up with the preferment (poolish) numbers, also using information that Brian provided. By subtracting the numbers for the poolish from the Total Formula, also by using pencil and paper and my desk calculator, I came up with the Final Mix. For both the Preferment and the Final Mix, I calculated the baker’s percents to be able to use the expanded dough calculating tool. With all the numbers in hand, I used the expanded dough calculating tool to finish off the numbers and produce a clean formatting of the data.

I also calculated the thickness factor for Brian’s dough skins, based on 21 ounces of dough to make an 18” pizza (in actuality, the final size can be about 18"-20"). The calculated thickness factor is 0.082525. This number can be used in the expanded dough calculating tool to come up with a different skin size and to make dough for more than one pizza. As will be noted below, I used the above thickness factor to come up with the amount of dough for the 12” size. However, it will still be necessary that one follow the methods discussed above to use the expanded dough calculating tool to come up with the three parts of Brian’s dough recipe. The advantage of making more than one dough ball is that the yeast quantity becomes more manageable. As will be seen below, a single dough ball, even for an 18” pizza, uses a minuscule amount of yeast. That is one of the reasons why I often recommend that users get a set of mini-measuring spoons such as shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264. Even then, some adjustment of the yeast quantity may be needed to adapt the dough formulation to the room temperature of the place where the dough is to ferment.

In the two dough formulations, I used a Total Formula hydration of 62%. However, since flours vary, including from lot to lot even for the same flour, the actual hydration value according to Brian can range from 62-65%. I also presumed the use of the Better for Bread flour, the retail counterpart to the General Mills foodservice Harvest King flour (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc). In addition, I used a bowl residue compensation of 2.5%, which is a value that I have found from past experience to work well in a poolish environment, where the poolish and dough can stick to just about every surface they come in contact with.

With the foregoing as background, here is the dough formulation for the 18” size:

Total Formula (18”)

Better for Bread/Harvest King Bread Flour (100%): Water (62%): IDY (0.04783%): Salt (2%): Olive Oil (1.5%): Total (165.54783%):

368.61 g  |  13 oz | 0.81 lbs 228.54 g  |  8.06 oz | 0.5 lbs 0.18 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.06 tsp | 0.02 tbsp 7.37 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 5.53 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp 610.23 g | 21.53 oz | 1.35 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Target dough ball weight = 21 ounces/595.35 grams; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

Preferment (Poolish)

Better for Bread/Harvest King Bread Flour (100%): Water (100%): IDY (0.03264%): Total (200.03264%):

73.72 g  |  2.6 oz | 0.16 lbs 73.72 g  |  2.6 oz | 0.16 lbs 0.02 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.01 tsp | 0 tbsp 147.47 g | 5.2 oz | 0.33 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: The quantity of poolish flour equals 20% of the Total Formula flour; 0.01 teaspoon of IDY is approximately equal to 1/128 teaspoon, or about ½ of a “drop” mini-measuring spoon

Final Mix
Preferment (Poolish): From above (147.47 grams/5.2 ounces)

Remaining Total Formula Better for Bread/Harvest King Bread Flour (100%): Remaining Total Formula Water (52.50%): Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.05288%): Total Formula Salt (2.49925%): Total Formula Olive Oil (1.87529%): Total (156.92742%):

294.8 g  |  10.4 oz | 0.65 lbs 154.77 g  |  5.46 oz | 0.34 lbs 0.16 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.05 tsp | 0.02 tbsp 7.37 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 5.53 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp 462.62 g | 16.32 oz | 1.02 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: 0.05 teaspoon IDY is equal to about 1 2/3 of a 1/32 “smidgen” mini-measuring spoon

And, for the 12” size:

Total Formula (12”)

Better for Bread/Harvest King Bread Flour (100%): Water (62%): IDY (0.04783%): Salt (2%): Olive Oil (1.5%): Total (165.54783%):

163.83 g  |  5.78 oz | 0.36 lbs 101.57 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs 0.08 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.03 tsp | 0.01 tbsp 3.28 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp 2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp 271.22 g | 9.57 oz | 0.6 lbs | TF = 0.0845881

Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.082525; target dough ball weight = 9.33oz/246.6g; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

Preferment (Poolish)

Better for Bread/Harvest King Bread Flour (100%): Water (100%): IDY (0.03264%): Total (200.03264%):

32.77 g  |  1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs 32.77 g  |  1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs 0.01 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp 65.54 g | 2.31 oz | 0.14 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: The quantity of poolish flour equals 20% of the Total Formula flour; 0.01 grams (0.0035 teaspoon) of IDY is a bit less than 1/128 teaspoon, or about ½ of a “drop” mini-measuring spoon

Final Mix
Preferment (Poolish): From above (65.54 grams/2.31 ounces)

Remaining Total Formula Better for Bread/Harvest King Bread Flour (100%): Remaining Total Formula Water (52.4964%): Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.04811%): Total Formula Salt (2.50259%): Total Formula Olive Oil (1.87695%): Total (156.92405%):

131.06 g  |  4.62 oz | 0.29 lbs 68.8 g  |  2.43 oz | 0.15 lbs 0.06 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.02 tsp | 0.01 tbsp 3.28 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp 2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp 205.67 g | 7.25 oz | 0.45 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: 0.02 teaspoon IDY is equal to about 2/3 of a 1/32 “smidgen” mini-measuring spoon

For dough preparation and management procedures, members should see Reply 41 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg123707.html#msg123707, as well as other related details in the same thread. Other details are provided in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12783.msg123496.html#msg123496.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

For those who are interested, one of our members, PizzaHog, attempted Brian's dough formulation but using cake yeast (CY) instead of IDY and adapted for a 14" size pizza. He reported his results, including his modified dough formulation, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13661.msg136725.html#msg136725.

Peter