hybrid Reinhart

[Zeppi]

Hi everyone!

I just made two Pizza  with my muddy dough that I had to ad another
30 ounces of flour so it could hold together.

23 hours in fridge ,reballed 6 hours before baking and rested 2 hours .
Home oven at 500 degrees on top  rack and on steel plate.

Was Delicious!!!  ............I knew I was at the right place with the nicest persons !!  



Louis

[fazzari]

Gorgeous bottom......that looks like a nice soft tender pizza to me!!

John

[Ev]

Beautiful! Great job!

[norma427]

Louis,

I agree, really good job and a tasty looking pizza!   

Norma

[Zeppi]

Thank's everyone !!..................I was real good !

I've made another one   last night for my wife when she came back from work,
a little Mortadella ,a little Genoa Salami ,hand ripped Kalamata Olives ,Basil and Olive Oil.
this one was'nt reballed and rested 1 hour before baking and I had great results also.
I found a Mozzarella here named *Black Diamond* that bakes similar to the Mack's Pizza  leaving
small holes and blending with the tomato leaving an explosion of flavor !
I hope I was'nt only lucky this time and will have great results next time !.......We'll see!!  


Louis  

[fazzari]

I guess I should know by know, that even though one might think he knows everything there is to know about a particular dough, there are always little tidbits of information that make for huge changes in dough.  I again on Wednesday made 6 doughballs of the hybrid type to eat for the week.  Up until now, I've been very careful to reball these doughs mostly because that is what Mr Reinhart wrote in his original recipes.  The changes I have made were in regard to the timing of the reball.  Thursday night, my wife decided she wanted a pizza.  I had 6 hybrid in the fridge, but I didn't have time to reball one...but noticing that they had not risen too much, I figured it would be easy enough to make a pizza.  So, I took one out, and easily made a 12 inch pizza from a 12 ounce dough and topped it with rotisserie chicken, feta cheese, onion, and mustard sauce.  Now, even though the pizza below doesn't look that bad...it was probably my least favorite Reinhart type pizza I've eaten...it was dry, a little chewy and lacked any real flavor.  You can see from the bottom shot, even though golden brown, it wasn't that nice smooth crisp bottom I'm used too.

John

[fazzari]

Today, Friday, I reballed a dough 6 hours prior to bake, and we had what we considered a fantastic pizza, full of flavor, with a nice moist rim, and tender bottom.  So, the exact same dough produces a good pizza, and a great pizza depending only on the reball.  You can see the bottom of this one is completely different than the one I made yesterday.......Fascinating stuff to me!
John

[norma427]

John,

I really find your last two posts fascinating.  I know how much you have experimented with the hybrid Reinhart dough and have seen your great results.  I never would have thought the reball time would be so critical.  I wanted to also ask you a question.  Do you always make 12" pizzas when you use the hybrid Reinhart dough?  The reason I am asking is, doesn’t even the size of the pizza have something to do with how a pizza tastes when baked and also how the dough balls handles when opening the dough?  I haven’t conducted enough tests to find out the questions I posted.

Both of your hybrid Reinhart pizzas look great to me!  Your choice of toppings on the pizza that wasn’t reballed really sound good.  Thanks for the experimenting.  Dough is always a mystery to me.

Norma

[fazzari]

Norma
The reason I make 12s is because I have no self control in the least...if I made 18 inch pizzas I would just eat a ton more.....as it is I just make 12 inch and then I try to share.  I've made as small as 10 and as large as 14....they are all, pretty darned good.  The little experiment above got me wondering about all kinds of doughs in general...not to say that all doughs should be reballed (they shouldn't!), but how many doughs do we discard as not good, because we've baked them at the wrong time, or developed them wrong...you know what I mean???  If all I did was judge the pizza above that was not reballed, I would have move on to something new...I'm excited, I've got 4 more doughs to eat this week.
John

[Zeppi]

Norma
The reason I make 12s is because I have no self control in the least...if I made 18 inch pizzas I would just eat a ton more

John !....I Agree!!! ....there is something aphrodisiac about a Pizza   and it was scientifficaly
proven a few years ago that Pizza excite the senses .  If there is a very good allready half eaten Pizza left  on the counter
after supper ,I've noticed that members of the family including myself have a hard time concentrating
on the movie we are watching till someone decides to solve the problem by eating the rest of the problem !!


Louis

[norma427]

John,

Although I have tried many experiments and tests on different kinds of dough, it still amazes me on how each dough and final pizzas are different.  I don’t know if I ever will be able to understand it all, but at least find it interesting.  One variable can change a dough or final pizza, at least in my opinion. 

I now understand why you usually make 12" pizzas.  I will be watching how your experiments go.  It is always interesting to see what other members do.  Your pizzas always look great! 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

In my experience, a new dough recipe can take some time to master, with a lot of miscues, big and small, before getting everything right. John (fazzari) has spent a lot of focused time with the various Reinhart dough recipes, including the hybrid Reinhart recipe, that he perhaps knows more about them and how to use and modify them than Peter Reinhart himself. John also knows how to skillfully cope with unexpected events that pop up from time to time to threaten to undermine his efforts. You are plenty skilled enough to get to the same stage as John with a bit more practice and a few more experiments. You always have about six balls in the air at one time that it is a wonder to me how you can find time to master any single dough recipe. To me, it is like trying to learn six different languages at one time. The way you work with your many pizzas reminds me of the guy in this YouTube video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNABpyphtL8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNABpyphtL8</a>

.

I also see a tension (for lack of a better word) between the Lehmann dough recipes, including the preferment Lehmann recipe, and the hybrid Reinhart recipe. On the one hand, the Lehmann dough recipes call for a modest hydration value that is intended for a commercial product and minimum dough handling. On the other hand, the hybrid Reinhart recipe calls for a considerably higher hydration value that is more in line with an artisan dough product that may require more handling of the dough, including re-balling and the like. I think that you may want to try to find the sweet spot of hydration, together with the use of more oil and sugar/honey, that gives you the best of both worlds. As you know, this will have to be done in the context of the ambient temperatures that prevail at market, both seasonal and the temperatures of your refrigerated case where you store the dough balls. I am confident that will be able to come up with a successful end product. Whether it will be good enough to displace the preferment Lehmann dough recipe remains to be seen.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

In my experience, a new dough recipe can take some time to master, with a lot of miscues, big and small, before getting everything right. John (fazzari) has spent a lot of focused time with the various Reinhart dough recipes, including the hybrid Reinhart recipe, that he perhaps knows more about them and how to use and modify them than Peter Reinhart himself. John also knows how to skillfully cope with unexpected events that pop up from time to time to threaten to undermine his efforts. You are plenty skilled enough to get to the same stage as John with a bit more practice and a few more experiments. You always have about six balls in the air at one time that it is a wonder to me how you can find time to master any single dough recipe. To me, it is like trying to learn six different languages at one time. The way you work with your many pizzas reminds me of the guy in this YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNABpyphtL8.

I also see a tension (for lack of a better word) between the Lehmann dough recipes, including the preferment Lehmann recipe, and the hybrid Reinhart recipe. On the one hand, the Lehmann dough recipes call for a modest hydration value that is intended for a commercial product and minimum dough handling. On the other hand, the hybrid Reinhart recipe calls for a considerably higher hydration value that is more in line with an artisan dough product that may require more handling of the dough, including re-balling and the like. I think that you may want to try to find the sweet spot of hydration, together with the use of more oil and sugar/honey, that gives you the best of both worlds. As you know, this will have to be done in the context of the ambient temperatures that prevail at market, both seasonal and the temperatures of your refrigerated case where you store the dough balls. I am confident that will be able to come up with a successful end product. Whether it will be good enough to displace the preferment Lehmann dough recipe remains to be seen.

Peter

Peter,

I know any new dough can take time to master.  Even doughs like I use week in a out, can still give me some problems, like the preferment Lehmann dough.  I would have thought the preferment Lehmann dough wouldn’t give me any problems by this time, but since there are so many temperature fluctuations at market, I can see it can give me some problems. 

I know John has spent a lot of focused time with the various Reinhart dough recipes and can see how he might be able to modify them better than Peter Reinhart himself.

Lol, I know I try too many experiments at once, but I am getting older and want to learn all I can. I do keep notes on what I have done and do remember how I prepared different doughs.  Higher hydration doughs are harder to work with, at least for me.  I sure am not as adept as John is in working with higher hydration doughs, and understanding all what can happen. 

I enjoyed the video you posted but I don’t have that kind of coordination. 

I have another hybrid dough ball I made this past Friday and will see how that dough handles at market.  I do understand how much the preferment Lehmann dough at a lower hydration, and the hybrid Reinhart dough at a much higher hydration are a lot different.   I will see after a few more experiments on the hybrid Reinhart dough if I might need to go down in hydration or change other ingredients for market.  The part that really has me stumped is the reball and how I am going to keep in line with what John has done.  Maybe in the end the hybrid Reinhart dough might not work for me at market.  You are right, that remains to be seen.

Norma

[fazzari]

Norma and Peter
You have to believe me when I tell you....you can't believe how many high hydration doughs I have ruined, or couldn't get off the board and threw away in frustration and  anger.  Like I have said all along, it was the reading of Reinhart's techniques with handling wet dough, that really got me started down this path...for instance the use of oil when scaling and balling.  It was through experimentation with balling times that I was able to come up with (at least for me), the perfect solution to opening up the high hydration doughs.  On the hybrid, if one reballs less than around 8 hours to bake time, the dough is very strong and can handle some thorough manipulation.....Here is what this means to me....the following dough ball was in the fridge 96 hours...it was reballed 4 hours prior to bake time.  I took this dough ball out of its container, and put it in a pile of flour....I slowly started opening it up in the flour, turning it over 2 or 3 times, thoroughly coating the wet spots.  After I had it open to about 7 inches....I was able to pick it up and slap it back and forth, to clean off all the flour and to stretch further...I even tossed it 3 times (kinda funny to see, but I'm getting better).  The result was the following 12 inch pizza we had for breakfast....this was not hard to do, I've even got some employees of mine doing the same thing.
John

[fazzari]

My mistake, that was yesterdays breakfast....here is todays........the point is....this is pretty easy stuff.
John

[norma427]

John,

I believe what you are posting from all your experimenting.  I also appreciate all the detail you have given on your methods.  Great to hear you could toss the dough 3 times!  Your pizza looks delicious! 

I don’t know how my hybrid Reinhart dough ball is going to do at market, because I will have to reball tomorrow.  I know that isn’t the right method, but if I want to use the hybrid Reinhart at market, that is what I will have to do.  It is supposed to be about 96 degrees F Tuesday and the temperatures beside the oven probably will be somewhere in the 100's.  I am not looking forward to those temperatures!

Norma