Author Topic: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?  (Read 2761 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« on: April 30, 2011, 08:06:14 AM »
There has been discussion in the past on the positive effect of long fermentation on the digestibility of pizza crust. Can anyone tell me whether this process results in a crust that is more or less prone to insulin secretion by the pancreas? 


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 08:36:23 AM »
There has been discussion in the past on the positive effect of long fermentation on the digestibility of pizza crust. Can anyone tell me whether this process results in a crust that is more or less prone to insulin secretion by the pancreas?  

As far as most of the pundits in the primal/paleo world go, any wheat or grain is going to initiate a pancreatic response, leading to insulin insensitivity (diabetes, etc.). Everyone has different theories though, and truth be told no one knows the answer. Some say that certain shapes of pasta, for example spaghetti, have a lower glycemic index. Some say that when you fully hydrate flour and use a long fermentation, the body does not elicit the same insulin response as say a potato.

Here is my own experience. I am on a primal diet for 80% of the time. I limit my sugar intake to near zero though. The rest of the time I eat what I want and excercise regularly. This is due to some health problems I have. I also take medication. When I eat Tartine bread or long fermented/high hydration pizza, I have no ill effects. When I eat french fries, my stomach turns in knots for hours. Same with sugar. Now this is highly unscientific but does show some real world examples of digestibility in my case. Who knows what the true insulin response is. I have read every book our there on this subject and they mostly contradict each other.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 08:38:52 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline scott123

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2011, 09:16:36 AM »
Bill, in healthy adults, insulin is secreted to remove excess glucose from the blood, so, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're basically asking if longer fermentation favors glucose production.

Yes, longer fermentation favors glucose production.

Glucose is being generated by enzyme activity.  While enzyme activity does slow down at lower temperatures, it doesn't slow down as much as yeast does, so lower temps favor glucose production rather than glucose consumption by the yeast.  In longer room temperature fermentation, less yeast is added to the dough. Less yeast translates into lower yeast activity/lower glucose consumption and favors glucose production. In other words, anything that curtails or slows down yeast (less yeast in the recipe or lower temps) favors enzyme activity/glucose production. Take away or handicap the predator and you'll end up with an abundance of prey.

Now, malted barley is an enzyme powerhouse, so the trend towards excess glucose formation is far greater in malted flour doughs, and, although longer fermentation definitely contains more residual glucose, it may not be all that much.  It encourages browning, but it's generally not the kind of browning one witnesses with higher quantities of sugar that one finds in sweet doughs, just a little more browning than one finds in quick ferments.  If I had to guesstimate, I'd say if a  2 hour ferment produces 0% residual glucose (in short ferments, yeast frequently consumes all the available sugar), a 24 hour dough with the same final volume (using less yeast or lower temperatures) would be somewhere in the 1% residual glucose realm. In other words, I don't think a long fermentation bread is going to shoot up the glycemic index.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 09:27:24 AM by scott123 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 09:26:54 AM »
Bill,
                      
I donít know if this article will help you or not, but it explains how starch is used in the body and about fermentation. It also explains about how Starch is digested to glucose in two basic steps. At the end of the article it talks about fermentation. http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/polysac.html   

and http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/foodchem.html

I donít understand all of this.  Maybe someone that is more knowledgeable can help more.

Norma
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 09:33:36 AM »
Bill, in healthy adults, insulin is secreted to remove excess glucose from the blood, so, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're basically asking if longer fermentation favors glucose production.

Yes, longer fermentation favors glucose production.


Thanks, John and Scott for the great responses. Yes, Scott, you heard heard me exactly right.

So, do the different strains of bacterium in the culture play any role in this? I've noticed my various starter cultures differ widely in their sensitivity to temperature in terms of final flavor and I've assumed that the bacteria played a big role in those differences based on the premise that they are metabolizing sugars produced by yeast activity into different acids. Is this even correct and does this have any significant effect on the glucose content of the final product? Thanks for the help.   

 

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2011, 09:38:55 AM »
Bill,
                      
I donít know if this article will help you or not, but it explains how starch is used in the body and about fermentation. It also explains about how Starch is digested to glucose in two basic steps. At the end of the article it talks about fermentation. http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/polysac.html   

and http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/foodchem.html

I donít understand all of this.  Maybe someone that is more knowledgeable can help more.

Norma


Thank you, Norma. Very helpful.

foolishpoolish

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2011, 09:52:17 AM »
Thanks, John and Scott for the great responses. Yes, Scott, you heard heard me exactly right.

So, do the different strains of bacterium in the culture play any role in this? I've noticed my various starter cultures differ widely in their sensitivity to temperature in terms of final flavor and I've assumed that the bacteria played a big role in those differences based on the premise that they are metabolizing sugars produced by yeast activity into different acids. Is this even correct and does this have any significant effect on the glucose content of the final product? Thanks for the help.  

 

It is correct but there are many paths by which the Lb (lactobacilli) do this. One of the most important is where Lb Sf (obligate heterofermenter) metabolises maltose and secretes glucose thus enabling maltose-negative yeast (candida humilis, saccharomyces exiguus etc. etc.) to propagate.
However cultures which contain yeast that CAN metabolise maltose may not depend on Lb Sf.

Regarding temperature:
Lower temperatures affect which metabolic pathway certain Lb might use (which substrate it metabolises or co-metabolises). It's a bit too diverse to cover each possiibility but the final result is differing ratios of Lactate and Acetate products (as well as Ethanol and ultimately esters and other flavor-compounds). Of note: all Lb produce lactic acid regardless of which path they use. They may also produce acetic acid, ethanol and CO2 but lactic will always be there.

The effect of temperature on enzymes is more straightforward. Their effectiveness simply declines as temperature drops. However this needs to be taken in the wider context of microbial activity of the dough. There are many sugars (maltose being dominant I suspect) and varying means by which the bacteria and yeast will metabolise them. Enzymes are like catalysts in that they are not chemically changed in the process. Other factors like the condition of the starch and the relative amounts of beta and alpha amylase are also going to affect the overall hydrolytic effect.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 10:07:12 AM by foolishpoolish »

Offline scott123

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2011, 09:56:49 AM »
There's also the positive impact of lactic acid on blood sugar:

Foods to Lower Your Blood Sugar: Sourdough Bread | Reader's Digest Version

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2011, 10:01:12 AM »
FWIW, this is the basis my questions: My weight has been creeping up and there is no doubt in my mind that it is a direct result of the increased carbs in my diet courtesy of all the Tartine bread I have been eating. I'm under some heavy deadline pressures for the next month so I've decided to eliminate baking and some other activities until I fulfill my commitments. And recently, I read a book highly recommended to me by a friend who is a doctor and specializes in eating issues: "Why We Get Fat" by Gary Taubs which makes persuasive arguments for the role of carbs in weight gain. Old news to many, but not to me.

So for the next month I have decided not to do any baking and to remove all carbs from my diet. Should not be much of sacrifice for me since I am an avid carnivore and I think it will be interesting to see the results. Even though I have none of the standard risk factors - blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol levels are all normal - I could stand to lose at least 10 pounds of fat (reminds me of the old joke: want to lose 20 pounds of ugly, useless fat? Cut off your head!).

At the end of May, I'll start working carbs back in to gauge how my body reacts. I can assure you that pizza and bread will be part of my intake, but I want to understand how decisions I make about preparing these delicacies effect fat production.      

Thanks to all for the help.

foolishpoolish

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2011, 10:04:18 AM »
FWIW, this is the basis my questions: My weight has been creeping up and there is no doubt in my mind that it is a direct result of the increased carbs in my diet courtesy of all the Tartine bread I have been eating. I'm under some heavy deadline pressures for the next month so I've decided to eliminate baking and some other activities until I fulfill my commitments. And recently, I read a book highly recommended to me by a friend who is a doctor and specializes in eating issues: "Why We Get Fat" by Gary Taubs which makes persuasive arguments for the role of carbs in weight gain. Old news to many, but not to me.

So for the next month I have decided not to do any baking and to remove all carbs from my diet. Should not be much of sacrifice for me since I am an avid carnivore and I think it will be interesting to see the results. Even though I have none of the standard risk factors - blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol levels are all normal - I could stand to lose at least 10 pounds of fat (reminds me of the old joke: want to lose 20 pounds of ugly, useless fat? Cut off your head!).

At the end of May, I'll start working carbs back in to gauge how my body reacts. I can assure you that pizza and bread will be part of my intake, but I want to understand how decisions I make about preparing these delicacies effect fat production.      

Thanks to all for the help.

Please, if you have any excess bread could you just mail it to me here in HK?! :D  Decent sourdough loaves are in short supply here and my toaster oven isn't quite cutting it as a solution.

Seriously though - good luck with the change in diet experiment. Be interesting to hear the results.


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2011, 10:08:40 AM »
Please, if you have any excess bread could you just mail it to me here in HK?! :D  Decent sourdough loaves are in short supply here and my toaster oven isn't quite cutting it as a solution.

Seriously though - good luck with the change in diet experiment. Be interesting to hear the results.


Thank you. I hate to report that half a Tartine loaf was sacrificed to the insulin gods. Putting it in the trash was a sad moment, but the lamb chops I ate immediately after eased the pain immensely.

Offline norma427

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 10:47:26 AM »
Bill,

I donít know if this will help you either, but in the Final word at the bottom of this article it says:
Making acid fruits and foods such as yogurt, kefir and sourdough breads part of your diet will also be a great contribution to a healthy diet because in addition to help you lower your blood glucose levels, they will add many other benefits: an increase in the amount of antioxidants and enhancing the absorption of vitamins and minerals.  http://thediabetesclub.com/high-acid-foods-that-lower-your-blood-glucose-levels/

When I used real milk kefir grains to ferment doughs, maybe these were helping somehow.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2011, 11:19:36 AM »
Bill,

I have been a student of nutrition just about all of my adult life. As a result of what I have read, I decided to adopt a largely vegetarian diet. I would say that it is about 80-85% vegetarian, with the rest being seafood, nuts, eggs, pepperoni ( :-D), soy products, and occasional detours into carnivore land like steaks and hamburgers (maybe twice a year) and an occasional roasted chicken from the supermarket. As a result of my diet, I get plenty of carbohydrates, including from sources that are often criticized for their high glycemic values, such as bananas, potatoes, mangos, corn and the like. So, I am very careful about the highly refined carbohydrates from sources like pizza and bread (although I try to stick with high fiber breads), not to mention the high fat contributions from cheeses and meat toppings. I also limit my sugar intake. A four-pound bag of sugar will last me about 9-10 months, with the bulk of that being used in my morning coffee. No doubt I get more sugar than I realize from food products that have a lot of hidden sugar in them, as well as sodium, which I also monitor, so I pay close attention to labels and Nutrition Facts. I also walk on average 5 or 6 miles a day, and I try to maintain my BMI (body mass index) at around 20-21. My last blood numbers as of a few months ago were normal, as they have been for most of my life. About the only time that I have found a tendency to put on weight is when I have overindulged eating pizzas and other refined carbohydrates. When that happens, I cut back dramatically on my pizza making and eating. I don't make bread very often because of the refined carbohydrates and their tendency to put on weight.

I also subscribe to the notion that fiber is important in my diet, because of its effect in decreasing transit time in the gut and its potential effect on controlling insulin production. I have noticed from my label reading over the past year or so that there is a major move toward increasing the fiber content of many processed foods, including breads and cereals. An example of efforts along these lines, as well as some of the pitfalls that obtain from low-fiber diets, can be seen from this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3032915/. I realize that this is a controversial area but for now I plan to stick with what I have been doing and limit my consumption of highly refined flour products, both qualitatively and quantitatively.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2011, 12:14:05 PM »
Very fascinating to read of your regimen, especially given your sage and meticulous approach to everything. I would love for you to read the book, which is contrary to the conventional public health wisdom and also some of your positions, but fully supports others. It would be fascinating for me to get your take on Taubes' arguments in case you decide to read the book.

The one fatal flaw of the book is that, since it is targeted at the layperson, he needs to interpret the conclusions of the multitude of medical studies he cites. My nagging fear as I was reading the book is that he is skewing and cherry-picking the studies to support his position in the same way he accuses the public health establishment of doing to support their position. I probably would not be willing to make the leap of faith required were it not for the assurances of my physician friend, who has read all of the studies and has spent her career treating overweight people, that his thesis is correct for most people.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2011, 01:14:16 PM »
Bill,

Given my interest in health and nutrition, I am sure that over the years I have read both sides of every argument and watched the pendulum swing from side to the other, often several times. That means that I am always making a judgment call and doing risk/benefits analyses. My diet needs a source of protein, so I have to think about that and I also realize that I need a certain amount of sodium and even saturated fats in my diet (some vitamins are soluble in only fat). I almost never discuss my diet with anyone although I will if someone asks me questions on health and nutrition or if it is germane to a discussion. People have to make their own lifestyle and health choices and decisions. We all have different biological makeups with different nutritional needs.

Peter

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2011, 05:06:56 AM »
Bill,

FWIW, I was into competitive bodybuilding for a few years & still follow a very similar eating regimen.  My intake is obviously no the same, but everything else is.  It's a little bit harder now because I have 2 young kids & I only work out 3 days a week instead of 6. 
Choose a lean protein (the size of a clinched fist), fill the rest of your plate with a vegetable, & a fruit that's low on the glycemic index (berries are best).  I don't add any additional fats to my food except a bit of EVOO if I have salad.  My other source of fat comes from an ounce of toasted almonds that I add to my yogurt as my night time snack.  Here's the best part:  Saturday night to Sunday night, eat whatever you want.  For me at leas,t that 24hours of eating whatever I want satisfies my cravings for the week to come.  Of course, exercise regularly if you can.

Best of Luck,
Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2011, 09:20:37 AM »
Bill,

I get notification from Sourdough Companion, because I do have a blog and subscribed to notification about sourdough baking, because I was interested in seeing how different people go about baking breads.  I donít bake that many breads, but found this one notification of interest for you this morning.  I donít know how true the studies were in this post, but find it interesting that this is what the poster said.  ďIn my research for options to improve our diet I came across references to an article in the British Journal of Nutrition that reported that ďthat sourdough bread had less blood glucose impact than both white and whole wheat breadĒ. Interestingly the study found that white sourdough was more beneficial than whole wheat sourdough.[1]I also found another study done in Italy that supported this finding. Apparently the fermentation process of sourdough converts starches in the flour into digestible sugars."  http://sourdough.com/blog/sourdough-diabetes

Norma
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 09:23:48 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2011, 09:31:59 AM »
Apparently the fermentation process of sourdough converts starches in the flour into digestible sugars." 

Thank you so much, Norma.

I'm confused. Aren't "digestible sugars" what stimulate insulin secretion by the pancreas?  ???

Offline norma427

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2011, 10:22:38 AM »

I'm confused. Aren't "digestible sugars" what stimulate insulin secretion by the pancreas?  ???


Bill,

I get confused about digestible sugars also.  Last year my doctor told me my sugar level was higher than the year before.  I did make my own ice tea with sugar and had been drinking regular coke.  He told me to cut out the homemade ice tea and coke.  I told my doctor I do eat a lot of pizza.  From what he told me was the sugar in my ice tea and coke, would be like eating a teaspoon of sugar each time I drank them and then my pancreas would need to kick in right away to bring the sugar levels down.  He said since I am getting older, that is too hard on my pancreas.  My doctor told me that the body metabolizes sugar in pizza dough in a different way and the pizza is much better for my body than just eating products that make my pancreas kick right in.  I just had my blood levels for sugar tested the other week.  I am going to go to the doctors tomorrow to have stitches taken out of my arm, so I guess I will see what happens with my sugar levels this year.  I wish someone could explain all this stuff to me too!  I have been exercising more and have lost 12 lbs. In the last year from exercising, and I guess cutting out the ice tea and coke. I still eat a lot of pizza. All this stuff is confusing.

Norma
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:25:20 AM by norma427 »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation, Digestibility, and Insulin Secretion?
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2011, 12:20:22 PM »
I've lost 30lbs since 1/3/11 (5 more to go). The biggest key has been interval training in a fasting mode - genreally on an elliptical machine. Diet also played a role. I increased my protein (mostly in the form of fat-free Greek yogurt) and fiber, but I didn't eliminate any particular type of food, I just paid more attention to how much I was eating - fat and alcohol in particular. 

CL
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