Author Topic: Why dough burns  (Read 1546 times)

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Offline csafranek

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Why dough burns
« on: April 17, 2013, 03:44:44 PM »
Ok I have noticed that sometimes my NP dough will burn very quickly once in the oven. The oven floor is about 800-850 in FB Primavera 70 oven. Is there a difference if the dough is slightly colder or warmer? Or over or under fermented? Then sometimes same floor temp the bottoms come out perfectly. I heat the oven the same way every time so it has to be another issue.  Thank you


Offline fornographer

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2013, 03:45:34 PM »
in my experience, they burn easily when overfermented. 

Offline Morgan

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2013, 03:50:27 PM »
Ok I have noticed that sometimes my NP dough will burn very quickly once in the oven. The oven floor is about 800-850 in FB Primavera 70 oven. Is there a difference if the dough is slightly colder or warmer? Or over or under fermented? Then sometimes same floor temp the bottoms come out perfectly. I heat the oven the same way every time so it has to be another issue.  Thank you

Never tested wfo, but there is a huge difference when using colder or warmer dough + under or over fermented. Difference can be seen using home oven, but i suggest that you take a few test doughs from the same batch and try it out.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 09:55:27 AM »
Ok I have noticed that sometimes my NP dough will burn very quickly once in the oven. The oven floor is about 800-850 in FB Primavera 70 oven. Is there a difference if the dough is slightly colder or warmer? Or over or under fermented? Then sometimes same floor temp the bottoms come out perfectly. I heat the oven the same way every time so it has to be another issue.  Thank you

I would love to see what your "burned" dough looks like. Can you post some pics? For the most part, I agree with the above about overfermenting and colder dough.

Some things that I have noticed that help prevent over-charring and what I call black balloons on my crust...

1. The dough balls should not have lots of medium and large bubbles before stretching. If they do, smash them out as much as you can, re-ball and wait for them to relax a bit before stretching out (and next time, go easier on the yeast or starter that you use).
2. Make sure you have your coals and flame on either the left or right side of the oven, and not in the rear. Convection of heat is much more evenly distributed over and under the pizza if the doorway is not in the path of the curling flame. Also, keep the flame moderate and not RAGING.
3. Cook pies a little further away from the flame and coal bed.
4. Lift and check the bottom and if it's getting close to over-charring,  keep it lifted off the floor, while continuing to rotate, to finish off the baking.
5. When stretching out your dough ball, make sure the disk is not too thick or it will burn before it's fully baked inside.
6. Don't drink too much alcohol before(or during) baking!

Offline csafranek

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 11:10:13 AM »
I would love to see what your "burned" dough looks like. Can you post some pics? For the most part, I agree with the above about overfermenting and colder dough.

Some things that I have noticed that help prevent over-charring and what I call black balloons on my crust...

1. The dough balls should not have lots of medium and large bubbles before stretching. If they do, smash them out as much as you can, re-ball and wait for them to relax a bit before stretching out (and next time, go easier on the yeast or starter that you use).
2. Make sure you have your coals and flame on either the left or right side of the oven, and not in the rear. Convection of heat is much more evenly distributed over and under the pizza if the doorway is not in the path of the curling flame. Also, keep the flame moderate and not RAGING.
3. Cook pies a little further away from the flame and coal bed.
4. Lift and check the bottom and if it's getting close to over-charring,  keep it lifted off the floor, while continuing to rotate, to finish off the baking.
5. When stretching out your dough ball, make sure the disk is not too thick or it will burn before it's fully baked inside.
6. Don't drink too much alcohol before(or during) baking!




If I had to guess I would say my dough would maybe fall on the under fermented. 

I don't have pictures because I am not proud of those results, but I will take a picture next time (hopefully wont be a next time) if it happens again.

My coals and flame is pushed to one side and I cook furthest away.

I do lift and check the bottoms but if they burn it is normally very quickly. I shake the excess flour off with the perforated peel so I know that's not the problem too.

The pie is stretched thin so the thickness isn't a problem.

The alcohol on the other hand... Just kidding....

I really wonder if its my fermentation.

Thank you all for all of your suggestions though!

Offline scott r

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 03:27:24 PM »
less coloration happens on either side of the perfect fermentation window.     you will get maximum browning when you are close to the perfect point of fermentation.    it will also give you the best texture at that point.   

it sounds like you have to adjust other aspects of your pizzamaking to get the dough to not "burn"       Maybe your oven or oven management is the issue here.   


Offline f.montoya

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 07:14:33 PM »

My coals and flame is pushed to one side and I cook furthest away.

I do lift and check the bottoms but if they burn it is normally very quickly. I shake the excess flour off with the perforated peel so I know that's not the problem too.



There is a balancing act that goes on here. If the bottom is cooking too quickly and the side closest to the flame has not begun to char much, you need to bake it closer to the coal bed and fire. If the opposite is happening, you need to bake it farther away. If both are charring at the same rate, it sounds like you might be getting a perfect bake but are leaving the pie in too long. There are some beautiful pies that come out in 48 to 50 seconds, so you don't need to worry about clocking in at 60 - 90 seconds. Floor heat management might be necessary too. Use a damp mop to take the floor temp down to the high 700's and make sure that the oven as a whole is still in the 900's and the dome should be in the upper 900's or higher.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 09:15:07 PM »
Floor heat management might be necessary too. Use a damp mop to take the floor temp down to the high 700's and make sure that the oven as a whole is still in the 900's and the dome should be in the upper 900's or higher.

Proper deck temperature is as much a function of the conductivity of the deck material as it is anything else. If my deck was only 700F, my pies would be white as a ghost on the bottom. I need at least 850F on the deck in my oven.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2013, 10:50:23 AM »
Proper deck temperature is as much a function of the conductivity of the deck material as it is anything else. If my deck was only 700F, my pies would be white as a ghost on the bottom. I need at least 850F on the deck in my oven.

But TXCraig1 isn't burning his pies at 850f. Our friend csafranek is. Remember that I only recommended taking his floor down to the high 700's...not down to 700f. Hoping to help him give his dough a chance at an even bake until he figures out how to balance it all out himself. All WFO's are not created equal. My oven works best at wall temps of 1000 and the floor at around 820f. Anything between 770 and 850f gives me great results. If I have a floor of 860 to 900, I get black streaks and un-charred areas on the bottoms of my pies(as evident by one of my recent videos.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2013, 12:59:19 PM »
The answer is the floor of the primavera. It is too conductive. You need to cook dough that is just under fermented to mitigate excessive burning. You also need to saturate it for over an hour, and then let it sit for a half hour before you bake.  After many firings it does get better though.

Flour under a pie from excess will turn yellow, not burn, in one minute bakes.

John


Offline dellavecchia

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Why dough burns
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 01:01:18 PM »
Also: Chad - make sure you are baking the dough balls bottom side down.

John
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 01:03:00 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2013, 09:07:52 AM »
But TXCraig1 isn't burning his pies at 850f. Our friend csafranek is. Remember that I only recommended taking his floor down to the high 700's...not down to 700f. Hoping to help him give his dough a chance at an even bake until he figures out how to balance it all out himself. All WFO's are not created equal. My oven works best at wall temps of 1000 and the floor at around 820f. Anything between 770 and 850f gives me great results. If I have a floor of 860 to 900, I get black streaks and un-charred areas on the bottoms of my pies(as evident by one of my recent videos.

The intent of my comment was not clear. It was simply meant to expand on what you wrote.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2013, 09:29:36 PM »
The intent of my comment was not clear. It was simply meant to expand on what you wrote.

Sorry about that. I thought it was I that was unclear.  :)

Offline csafranek

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2013, 09:37:56 PM »
All great info. Thank you all. Wish me luck on my next cook next weekend. I'll post my cooks! Wether good or bad...  ;D  :'(

Offline f.montoya

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2013, 11:07:31 PM »
All great info. Thank you all. Wish me luck on my next cook next weekend. I'll post my cooks! Wether good or bad...  ;D  :'(

Best of luck!! Looking forward to some pictures. It's good to have an assistant with a camera on pizza day!   :chef:

Offline acbova

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2013, 05:03:43 PM »
Also: Chad - make sure you are baking the dough balls bottom side down.


John,

Interesting, is that because the top side is dryer which would lead to burning faster? 

Tony

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2013, 06:10:54 PM »
John,

Interesting, is that because the top side is dryer which would lead to burning faster? 

Tony

I am not sure why honestly, but I do see a marked difference if I forget to bake bottom side down.

You theory makes sense though.

John

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2013, 07:15:42 PM »
I am not sure why honestly, but I do see a marked difference if I forget to bake bottom side down.

You theory makes sense though.

John

I haven't noticed a difference in browning, but I completely agree with baking bottom side down. I think the finished pies look better. Take a close look at your dough after you open the ball. The top is beautiful and smooth while the bottom can be pretty ragged in comparison.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Why dough burns
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2013, 06:38:31 PM »
Roberto talked about this in one of those instructional videos. He said to do bottom side down because when proofing the dough ball; gravity is pulling the dough down to the base so it's naturally going to be "heavier"(more dense). So when baking if you use the bottom side as the top you just negated the effects of the proof by the top side being "lighter"(less dense). This is all paraphrased, the video is somewhere on here.