Author Topic: Artisan bread making forum (Read 11124 times)

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2005, 10:22:44 AM »

Here are my Palatone (section only) a denser bread that my usual cocchia, and a personal example of "Casatielli caldi" made with 100% Fancy Semolina flour, olive oil, raisins, and black pepper

pyegal · « **Reply #21 on:** May 28, 2005, 11:57:28 AM »

Pizzanapoletana,
Those breads look amazing! Did you use a starter/culture/preferment or a biga?

I've wanted to make semolina bread for a while now. Maybe today is the day? I haven't seen
recipes that included raisins. Is that a regional or family preference?

Thanks for sharing!

pyegal

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #22 on:** May 29, 2005, 04:14:29 PM »

Pyegal

Thanks for the compliments. I have explained in the past that I use only my starters for whatever fermented dough I work with. Check my other posts on "Happy Easter" and Pognotte con l'olio.

Casatielli caldi is a type of roll/small loaf that was eaten in Naples in the late 19th century. It is not clear which type of flour they were using, and some even suggest a mix of wheat and maize or other only maize (in this case I don't think it was a fermented bread). It is clear however that both a fat (lard), black pepper and raisins were include.

My personal version was made with olive oil instead of lard and fine semolina flour ( I believe in US is called fancy) as only flour.

Please note that the "Casatielli Caldi" are quite different from the Casatiello previously posted.

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #23 on:** June 16, 2005, 02:58:53 PM »

I am continuing in this sub-forum a thread from the Neapolitan sub-forum between myself and David regarding Pane Cafone using natural starters. David had stated the crust on his was bullet-proof, so I decided to make the recipe using Marco's Ischia starter.

The results were very impressive, even though the dough was overproofed due to a scheduling snafu. The crust was on the hard side, but shattered easily when being cut and was not tough. The flavor was fabulous. I would definitely make this again, but I do have a few issues:

This was the kind of dry dough that immediately forms a ball on the KA dough hook and just spins without much kneading action. I ended up kneading by hand until window-pane stage.
The biggest issue was the amount of starter called for in the recipe that came with the culture. The starter was extremely active and I'm sure I could have used much less to give a slower room-temp ferment and proof. Next time I'll reduce the starter to 50g.
I'll also add a little more salt.
Finally, the amount of baking time (1 hour) was excessive. I baked it on a stone in a conventional oven for about 30 minutes until i was about 200F internal. I suspect if it had cooked for an hour, the crust would have been "bullet-proof" also.

My general impression after having used thesestarters for a only a short time is to simply use my tried-and-true recipes and, instead of commercial yeast, use about 9% of the natural starter and room-temp fermenting/proofing then adjust ingredients and procedures depending on the result. Next test will be my standard baguette recipe using the Camaldoli starter.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #24 on:** June 16, 2005, 06:56:41 PM »

All the recipes in the instruction booklet were devised for the average home baker and not for passionate people like guys on this forum.

The pane cafone I make, and for any matter the one made in Naples, has a much wetter dough.

Also it is important to make this type of bread with at least 15% starter against the weight of the water.

Ciao

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #25 on:** June 16, 2005, 10:53:23 PM »

Quote from: pizzanapoletana on June 16, 2005, 06:56:41 PM

The pane cafone I make, and for any matter the one made in Naples, has a much wetter dough.

Pizzanapoletana:

What kind of flour do you recommend for pane cafone? Based on your latest comments, I think I have a rough idea how to proceed in terms of hydration and amount of starter. As a matter of personal taste, I prefer my breads saltier than what is sold in most U.S. bakeries. My impression is that many Italian breads are on the salty side.

I must say the taste from the starter was sensational. I think with a little slower fermenting/proofing it can be even better. Thanks.

apizza · « **Reply #26 on:** June 17, 2005, 09:58:40 PM »

OK now I'm really curious. Knowing hardly any Italian, the name pane cafone hit two of the words I know. Can someone explain the name, especially the cafone part? It's not how my Dad used to describe bread.

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #27 on:** June 17, 2005, 10:49:49 PM »

Quote from: apizza on June 17, 2005, 09:58:40 PM

OK now I'm really curious. Knowing hardly any Italian, the name pane cafone hit two of the words I know. Can someone explain the name, especially the cafone part? It's not how my Dad used to describe bread.

It's a peasant bread. According to the brochure that comes with Marco's Italian cultures: Pane Cafone means country man's bread. Cafone in Neapolitan means an uneducated man which now usually refers to people living in the country."

I've heard cafone used as an insult for a crude or rude person.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #28 on:** June 18, 2005, 01:19:17 PM »

Bill

I use the Caputo Pizzeria for Bread as well with good results.

Ideally I would use the Yellow bag, but it is not imported in UK.

50g salt per litre should be fine.

Ciao

apizza · « **Reply #29 on:** June 18, 2005, 07:49:24 PM »

Thanks for the explanation Bill. We agree on the definition of cafone. I like the country man's bread description better. In my part of Italian culture we call it Pane Pugliese. Wonderful round loaves with great flavor. The bread varieties go on just like the regional pizza.

dinks · « **Reply #30 on:** June 19, 2005, 05:42:08 PM »

BILL/SFNM:
Good Afternoon my fellow baker. I would like to reply to your interpretation of the word "CAFONE". Yes you are correct!!! It denotes a very negative connotation toward a person in the Sicilian dialect.
Good Luck & have a nice day.
~DINKS.

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #31 on:** June 20, 2005, 02:14:50 PM »

Today made some baguettes using my standard recipe, but with Camaldoli starter only rather than my old natural starter plus IDY. This thing took 26 hours to double at room temp and 6 hours to proof at room temp. In fact, I wasn't really sure it had proofed adequately. But it rose perfectly in the oven and the flavor and texture were out of this world. In my limited experience to date with the Camaldoli starter, it is very slow, but even with a very dry baguette dough has plenty of energy. After such a long preferment and proof, it develops a mild but very complex flavor. I have a lot more testing to do. Next time I'll add more starter. I have just activated the "French" starter from sourdo.com so it will be interesting to see how that compares.

Here is a photo:

(http://www.cordless.com/images/breadA.jpg)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #32 on:** June 20, 2005, 02:58:29 PM »

Sante Fe Bill,

Another superb job with the baguettes.

Maybe you've covered this before, but how much preferment did you use this time in relation to the amount of flour (i.e., the baker's percent for the preferment?) Your basic recipe calls for 1/2 cup. I measured 1/2 cup of one of my semi-liquid preferments today and it came to 4 oz., or about 23% of the weight of flour in your recipe. Your original recipe also called for commercial yeast, of course. For comparison purposes, I took another look at Nancy Silverton's recipe for baguette dough, and the amount of preferment (again, in semi-liquid form) comes to around 35%. Were you anywhere close to that figure?

Peter

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #33 on:** June 20, 2005, 04:27:04 PM »

Peter,

Thanks!

For 500g of KA Bread flour, I used 50g of activated starter. Next time I'll try 75 grams to see what that does, although I think next time I'll try out my new French starter instead. I've also started started using bottled water (pH~6.8) instead of well water (pH~7.9). Some day I'll switch back to well water to see if it makes a difference.

Bill

Pete-zza · « **Reply #34 on:** June 20, 2005, 05:18:08 PM »

From what I have read, the optimum pH for pizza dough (and I assume bread dough) is considered to be around 5.0 (or slightly acidic). This pH level is best achieved by using water that has a pH in the range of 6.5-8.0, with a pH of 7.0 (neutral) being the optimum. In Naples, where the water is filtered through volcanic deposits, the pH is 6.7, just about where your bottled water is.

With your well water at a pH of 7.9, you could add a little bit of acetic acid (vinegar) to lower the pH. However, since long fermented doughs using prefements tend to be more acidic, maybe the process is somewhat self correcting when you use well water. It will be interesting to see if you detect any differences when you go over to the bottled water.

Peter

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #35 on:** June 21, 2005, 02:57:51 PM »

The water in Naples vary considerably from area to area. The last average PH was at 7. something... Also the hardness of the water is different in many area, but it is true that the historic pizzeria are supplied by the old water "aqueduct", which has a less hard water

Pete-zza · « **Reply #36 on:** June 21, 2005, 03:30:50 PM »

Marco,

I know in a few posts you have made general references to the fact that water quality affects the fermentation process. Leaving aside for the moment the matter of mineral content and hardness/softness and their effects on fermentation and gluten and so forth, would the higher acidity of a naturally leavened/ripened dough offset some of the effects of Bill's well water by changing the pH of the dough (lowering it)? In other words, would Bill have any need to use bottled water if he makes only naturally leavened doughs like he has been doing recently?

BTW, the Naples pH number I mentioned came from an article I had read where a U.S. pizza operator had retained a firm to come up with a water formulated to be as close as possible to Naples water. Prior to that time, the company apparently imported the water for its Neapolitan pizza doughs from Naples.

Peter

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #37 on:** June 21, 2005, 03:41:31 PM »

The acidity in the water it is important but only if related to other factors. When I speak in general about water quality , I usually refer to hardness which affects not least the absoption rate of the flour (an harder water absorb less flour).

The acidity slow down some of the enzyme activity. Working with natural leavening already helps in achieving so. Also a too acid environment it is not favorable to yeast fermentation and the fermentation can get stuck.

I would not use well water for any food stuff and especially to preserve foreign starter.

Ciao

David · « **Reply #38 on:** June 23, 2005, 12:04:24 PM »

I've read that Sourdough bread has a shelf life of a couple of weeks.Will using a Crescito increase the shelf life of any / all baked goods?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #39 on:** June 23, 2005, 02:28:11 PM »

David,

For doughs like bread dough and pizza dough, and other quasi-doughs like pretzel dough, I would say yes.

One doesn't usually think about keeping qualities for something like a pizza crust, but the keeping qualities apply there also. In fact, I devoted a post largely to that topic at Reply #162, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12554.html#msg12554.

Peter