Author Topic: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough  (Read 38371 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #150 on: July 26, 2011, 11:53:26 AM »
Norma,

What do your customers think of the cracker-style vs. your other pies?

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #151 on: July 26, 2011, 11:55:51 AM »
I'd like to try that dough with nothing more than a good bit of parmesan cheese on top. Maybe a touch of rosemary and black bepper too. Cooked crisp, it would be like cheese crackers. You could sell it with a cup of warm sauce on the side for dipping.

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #152 on: July 26, 2011, 09:45:48 PM »
I'd like to try that dough with nothing more than a good bit of parmesan cheese on top. Maybe a touch of rosemary and black bepper too. Cooked crisp, it would be like cheese crackers. You could sell it with a cup of warm sauce on the side for dipping.

CL
Norma,

What do your customers think of the cracker-style vs. your other pies?

CL


Craig,

I havenít given any of the experimental cracker style pizzas to any of my customers.  I really donít have the right kind of cutter pan to try, and I donít even know what a real cracker-style pie is supposed to taste like.  I did another experiment today, with another cracker-style pizza and I wasnít happy with it either.  :-D

Your ideas for toppings really sound good for a cracker-style pizza.  :)

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #153 on: July 27, 2011, 11:46:34 AM »
I really donít think the EL-7 product worked as intended in the cracker-style pizza formulation I used, or maybe I didnít go about making a cracker-style dough pizza right, but I am not happy with this style of pizza or my results.

After the dough was rolled out on Monday the dough did look okay.  When I took the rolled out dough out of the plastic wrap and a plastic bag I had stored it in, the dough felt drier than when I had rolled it.  The dough skin also looked different, in that it had some spots in it.  I tried to roll the dough more at market, but it wouldnít budge.  I oiled my blackbuster steel pan and placed the dough skin in the pan and then cut the dough some.  The skin was pre-baked, then dressed and put straight onto the deck this time. 

The pizza did have a definite crackery sound when cutting, but doesnít seem crackery enough for me.  The pizza was crispy, but not crackery, if that makes any sense.  ::)

Pictures below,

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #154 on: July 27, 2011, 11:48:20 AM »
Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #155 on: July 27, 2011, 11:49:41 AM »
Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #156 on: July 27, 2011, 11:50:29 AM »
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #157 on: July 27, 2011, 12:14:19 PM »
Norma,

As I understand it, you used DKM's cracker style dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php but modified in accordance with Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg146068.html#msg146068, including the use of the EL-7 product. If so, can you answer the following questions?:

1. Are you looking for a more cracker-like crust or a crispy one? A cracker-like crust by my definition would be somewhat thicker than a crispy crust and more tender than a crispy crust. A cracker-like crust might break along a clean line rather than shatter.

2. What type and brand of flour did you use?

3. What is the size of your pan?

4. After you trimmed the skin to fit your pan, did you weigh it?

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #158 on: July 27, 2011, 01:00:14 PM »
Norma,

As I understand it, you used DKM's cracker style dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php but modified in accordance with Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg146068.html#msg146068, including the use of the EL-7 product. If so, can you answer the following questions?:

1. Are you looking for a more cracker-like crust or a crispy one? A cracker-like crust by my definition would be somewhat thicker than a crispy crust and more tender than a crispy crust. A cracker-like crust might break along a clean line rather than shatter.

2. What type and brand of flour did you use?

3. What is the size of your pan?

4. After you trimmed the skin to fit your pan, did you weigh it?

Peter

Peter,

You are correct, that I did use DKMís cracker style dough formulation at the link you posted with the EL-7 product in higher amounts, but I didnít use my homemade proofing box.  

I still am confused about what a cracker-style crust should be like and taste like.  I know I tried the V&N clone different times, and although I did like that formulation and pizza, didnít really like a thin crust pizza as much as I like thicker crust pizzas.  I guess my tastes in pizzas are more about how the crust tastes.  The cracker-style I tried yesterday wasnít tender in the crust, but did break along clean lines when cut.  It didnít shatter.  I think I had read somewhere here on the forum that there should be fine crumbs when a cracker-style crust is cut.  When the cracker-style pizza I made yesterday was cut, there werenít fine crumbs.  To Steve and me the crust was almost tough.  Another friend did taste a slice and liked how the crust was.  I donít think many thin crust pizzas have much taste in the crust.

For my last experiments before yesterday, I use the Superlative ďAll-PurposeĒ flour from the Country Store.  For my experiment yesterday I tried Gold Medal ďAll-PurposeĒ flour.  I think I did read that maybe a high gluten four (maybe KASL) might be used.  I think that is why I canít understand what really should be used in terms of flour.  I used Hodgson Mill ADY for the yeast and did hydrate it.  Would it matter that for this week I used regular table salt.  I did put regular table salt in the Expanded Dough Calculation Tool.

The pan I used was 14" round.  I didnít weigh the skin after I cut it, because I also trimmed off some of the dough after rolling it on Monday, and didnít weigh that either.  

Another thing I canít understand, and confused me is how the dough became drier from Monday until Tuesday, when it was in plastic wrap and a plastic bag.  I donít know if that was from the EL-7 product or from something I did.  I donít know if the EL-7 product keeps working on dough something like PZ-44, but it sure didnít seem that way this week.  

Norma
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 01:01:47 PM by norma427 »


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #159 on: July 27, 2011, 03:26:44 PM »
Norma,

I think that often the confusion about the cracker style of pizza stems from semantics. For example, the terms "cracker", "cracker style", "cracker-like", "crackery", "crunchy", and "crispy" can mean different things to different people. Even the term "tender" has a different meaning in the context of the cracker style pizza than for other types of crusts. The DKM recipe you have been using is DKM's interpretation of a true cracker style crust that was popularized by Pizza Inn many years ago. Yet, I have seen the above terms used for pizza crusts that, in my opinion, are quite different than the DKM Pizza Inn type of crust. Examples include the Chicago cracker style pizza, such as the Vito & Nick's pizza (see also Tom Lehmann's recipe at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_161/title_Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/), the DeLorenzo pizzas, the Monical and Round Table pizzas, and even the Mack's pizzas. Sometimes the above terms are also used with terms like chewy to describe other parts of a pizza crust. As we have learned, it is not always easy to make any pizza identically every time. A pizza intended to have a soft crust can have chewy and cracker-like parts and, conversely, a pizza intended to be cracker-like can have soft, chewy parts.

If you would like to try to find the species of cracker style pizza that you like the best, and at the same time learn something about the different possible textural characteristics of a cracker style crust, I would like to suggest the following. I suggest that you make two pizzas that are identical in every way,  except for the thickness factor. For one of the pizzas, I would use a thickness factor for the skin as it is fitted into the pan of 0.09. For the other pizza, I would use a thickness factor of about 0.05-0.06 for the skin as it is fitted in its pan. The reason I asked you the questions about the pan size and the weight of the skin in the pan was to be able to determine the corresponding thickness factor. Knowing that might have allowed me to explain your results. If you decide to conduct the test suggested above, you can use the EL-7 product for both doughs, or you can run the test without that product (and use your proofing box if necessary). If you choose to use the EL-7 product, you can post your results in this thread. If you'd like, you can also make the two pizzas on separate occasions so long as they are identical as much as possible but for the thickness factor as discussed above. Hopefully, making the two pizzas you will experience different crust textures from which you may develop a preference or, in the alternative, get ideas for improvement if you decide to proceed further with that style.

The question about the type and brand of flour was raised because the type of flour used for the cracker style pizza can make a difference. As DKM has noted, the three basic kinds of white flour, including all-purpose flour, bread flour and high-gluten flour, can all be used to make the DKM cracker style pizza. I personally found that I liked the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour better than all-purpose flour, whereas other members indicated that their favorite flour was a high-gluten flour. Bread flour and high-gluten flour promote increased crust flavor and increased crust coloration. I briefly touched upon the flour issue at Reply 159 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg71979.html#msg71979 (note also the discussion of crust chararacteristics) and also in Reply 135 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53189.html#msg53189. In Reply 135 I also espoused a pet theory of mine that a thin cracker style crust has a different impact on the palate because each bite of a cracker style pizza has proportionately less crust in each bite than with most other pizzas with much thicker crusts (assuming the same things on the pizzas). If my theory is right, that might help explain why you seem to prefer thicker crusts over thinner crusts. Or it may simply be a case that you just don't like cracker style crusts and pizzas, based on flavor, crust characteristics or maybe even both.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/record/57734/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 10:47:51 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #160 on: July 27, 2011, 05:37:03 PM »
Norma,

I think that often the confusion about the cracker style of pizza stems from semantics. For example, the terms "cracker", "cracker style", "cracker-like", "crackery", "crunchy", and "crispy" can mean different things to different people. Even the term "tender" has a different meaning in the context of the cracker style pizza than for other types of crusts. The DKM recipe you have been using is DKM's interpretation of a true cracker style crust that was popularized by Pizza Inn many years ago. Yet, I have seen the above terms used for pizza crusts that, in my opinion, are quite different than the DKM Pizza Inn type of crust. Examples include the Chicago cracker style pizza, such as the Vito & Nick's pizza (see also Tom Lehmann's recipe at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_161/title_Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/), the DeLorenzo pizzas, the Monical and Round Table pizzas, and even the Mack's pizzas. Sometimes the above terms are also used with terms like chewy to describe other parts of a pizza crust. As we have learned, it is not always easy to make any pizza identically every time. A pizza intended to have a soft crust can have chewy and cracker-like parts and, conversely, a pizza intended to be cracker-like can have soft, chewy parts.

If you would like to try to find the species of cracker style pizza that you like the best, and at the same time learn something about the different possible textural characteristics of a cracker style crust, I would like to suggest the following. I suggest that you make two pizzas that are identical in every way,  except for the thickness factor. For one of the pizzas, I would use a thickness factor for the skin as it is fitted into the pan of 0.09. For the other pizza, I would use a thickness factor of about 0.05-0.06 for the skin as it is fitted in its pan. The reason I asked you the questions about the pan size and the weight of the skin in the pan was to be able to determine the corresponding thickness factor. Knowing that might have allowed me to explain your results. If you decide to conduct the test suggested above, you can use the EL-7 product for both doughs, or you can run the test without that product (and use your proofing box if necessary). If you choose to use the EL-7 product, you can post your results in this thread. If you'd like, you can also make the two pizzas on separate occasions so long as they are identical as much as possible but for the thickness factor as discussed above. Hopefully, making the two pizzas you will experience different crust textures from which you may develop a preference or, in the alternative, get ideas for improvement if you decide to proceed further with that style.

The question about the type and brand of flour was raised because the type of flour used for the cracker style pizza can make a difference. As DKM has noted, the three basic kinds of white flour, including all-purpose flour, bread flour and high-gluten flour, can all be used to make the DKM cracker style pizza. I personally found that I liked the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour better than all-purpose flour, whereas other members indicated that their favorite flour was a high-gluten flour. Bread flour and high-gluten flour promote increased crust flavor and increased crust coloration. I briefly touched upon the flour issue at Reply 159 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg71979.html#msg71979 (note also the discussion of crust chararacteristics) and also in Reply 135 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53189.html#msg53189. In Reply 135 I also espoused a pet theory of mine that a thin cracker style crust has a different impact on the palate because each bite of a cracker style pizza has proportionately less crust in each bite than with most other pizzas with much thicker crusts (assuming the same things on the pizzas). If my theory is right, that might help explain why you seem to prefer thicker crusts over thinner crusts. Or it may simply be a case that you just don't like cracker style crusts and pizzas, based on flavor, crust characteristics or maybe even both.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for explaining about how the different terms can mean different things to different people.  When I thought about making the cracker-style, I thought the crust would be something like a cracker, in that it would be crisp, yet crackery, or easy to eat.  That wasnít the case in any of the cracker-style  pizzas I had made with the EL-7 product.  I guess it is hard to explain what I thought the crust should be like.  Since I never really ate a cracker-style or even much thin crusted pizzas, I really didnít know what to expect though.  I know when I tried the real Ultra-Thin crust in NY, I thought those crusts were what I would have considered to be something that I would like in a cracker-style, but when I actually bought the real skins and then try to make the Ultra-thin clones, I was disappointed.  Those crusts in NY were almost melt in your mouth crispy and tender at the same time, if I can explain it right. 

I would like to find the species of cracker style pizza I like best, and also learn something about the different possible textural characteristics of a cracker style crust. I will take your advise and try the same dough formula, but use two different TF for next week.  What formula do you suggest I try for this coming week, and how much of the EL-7 product do you suggest I use in the formula. Would I still use a formula for a 15" skin, cut to 14"?   I wanted to also explain that the crust did still shrink some even with the EL-7 added to the formula during the bake. I will buy some Harvest King flour for the next experiment.

I guess I will find out if I like a cracker-style crust and pizza after a few  more experiments.

Norma

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/record/57734/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 10:46:48 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #161 on: July 27, 2011, 07:22:26 PM »
Norma,

I would use the same dough formulation you used the last time. For the first dough, I would use a starting thickness factor of 0.07 for a 15" skin that is cut back to 14" to be fitted into the 14" pan. The thickness factor for the skin itself when in the pan should be around 0.05-0.06. For the second dough, I think I would use a starting thickness factor of around 0.105, with the objective of ending up with a 14" skin with a thickness factor of around 0.09 when fitted within its 14" pan.

To put matters into perspective, I estimate that the thickness factor for a skin made in accordance with DKM's instructions to be around 0.09. It is always a challenge to take a large skin and cut a smaller skin out of it to fit its pan and to have a thickness factor that yields the desired finished crust characteristics. This would not be a problem if you were able to roll out a piece of dough using a rolling pin to exactly 14" and have a final skin that is perfectly round. That is not likely. That is why I use a larger starting thickness factor to make a larger skin from which to cut out the smaller skin to fit the pan. In a commercial setting, this would not be a problem because, according to Tom Lehmann, at Reply 152 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg65671/topicseen.html#msg65671, there is commercial equipment that can take a dough ball and turn it into a skin of the desired size without any scrap.

I don't have an explanation as to why you experienced some shrinkage in the skin that was kept sealed. My recollection is that I sometimes experienced the same thing and that I just let the skin warm up to see if I could get it back to its desired size. One solution may be to make the final skin a bit larger, as by additional rolling. With some shrinkage, you may still be OK.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #162 on: July 27, 2011, 09:49:55 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for giving me the formula and instructions to try for my next attempts.  I understand it probably will be a challenge for me to roll out the skin, cut it, and then have the right TF.  I will see what happens with that.  I will weigh any cut off dough this time.

To clarify what I meant about the shrinkage in the skin, it wasnít when the skin was in the plastic bag, it was after the skin had baked.  I guess always there is shrinkage in a skin after baking, even when using the EL-7 product.  One thing that makes me curious about this style of pizza is how long in total time it takes to bake.  With the skin having such a low TF, I would think the total baking time would be shorter.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #163 on: July 28, 2011, 10:26:22 AM »
One thing that makes me curious about this style of pizza is how long in total time it takes to bake.  With the skin having such a low TF, I would think the total baking time would be shorter.

Norma,

In my oven using my cutter pan, I pre-baked the skins at around 475 degrees F for 4 or 5 minutes (or until the pre-baked skins start to take on color) and, after dressing the pizzas, for about another 7 or 8 minutes at 475 degrees F. It is the long bake at lower than usual temperatures that helps drive out the moisture and produce a dry, crispy or cracker-like crust. The thickness factor is material but only when considered with the low hydration value. At a much higher hydration value, it would take longer to get the crust dry. A major limiting factor of all cracker-style crusts is the hydration value. Once you start to get above about 40-45%, it gets harder to achieve a cracker or crispy quality. In my opinion, you have a much better shot in the mid-30s hydration range.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #164 on: July 28, 2011, 11:30:58 AM »
Norma,

In my oven using my cutter pan, I pre-baked the skins at around 475 degrees F for 4 or 5 minutes (or until the pre-baked skins start to take on color) and, after dressing the pizzas, for about another 7 or 8 minutes at 475 degrees F. It is the long bake at lower than usual temperatures that helps drive out the moisture and produce a dry, crispy or cracker-like crust. The thickness factor is material but only when considered with the low hydration value. At a much higher hydration value, it would take longer to get the crust dry. A major limiting factor of all cracker-style crusts is the hydration value. Once you start to get above about 40-45%, it gets harder to achieve a cracker or crispy quality. In my opinion, you have a much better shot in the mid-30s hydration range.

Peter

I read most of all the instructions you and others gave for making a cracker-style pizza and saw what temperatures the cracker-style pizzas were being baked at.  I wonder if since my bake tempertures on my deck oven are higher, if that somehow affects my results.  Maybe my higher bake temperatures might be drying the crust out too fast.  I had thought about that the past 3 weeks.  I am now wondering if I should just try my two next experiments at home.  I also wonder what temperatures real pizza operators that make cracker-style pizzas use, and if they just bake them right on the deck.  I have seen that some of them are baked right on the deck.  Thanks for your help, again!

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #165 on: July 28, 2011, 02:05:22 PM »
Norma,

Often what happens when you bake a pizza at too high a temperature is that the crust takes on the desired degree of coloration but before the rest of the pizza has finished baking. As a result, the crust can be softer and more tender than desired. I think in your case you might try making the pizzas at home since that would simulate the way that I made my cracker-style pizzas and from which I developed my personal preferences.

I will do some research on typical bake temperatures for commercial cracker-style pizzas. I seem to recall that one of our members who went on to open up his own pizzeria, where I believes he serves a cracker-style pizza, talked about his baking methods over at the PMQ Think Tank.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #166 on: July 28, 2011, 05:14:00 PM »
Norma,

Often what happens when you bake a pizza at too high a temperature is that the crust takes on the desired degree of coloration but before the rest of the pizza has finished baking. As a result, the crust can be softer and more tender than desired. I think in your case you might try making the pizzas at home since that would simulate the way that I made my cracker-style pizzas and from which I developed my personal preferences.

I will do some research on typical bake temperatures for commercial cracker-style pizzas. I seem to recall that one of our members who went on to open up his own pizzeria, where I believes he serves a cracker-style pizza, talked about his baking methods over at the PMQ Think Tank.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for letting me know that if a pizza is baked at too high of a temperature the crust gets coloration, before the rest of the pizza is finished baking.  I think I had the opposite thing happen to me, as the crust was too tough and maybe too dark.  Maybe I baked the cracker-style too long, but I was trying to watch the pre-bake and final pizza bake, but couldnít really tell how long to let it in the deck oven.  I will bring my blackbuster steel pan home tomorrow, and try one experiment each week, because I surely canít eat two pizzas at once, without the taste testers at market.  I think it is a good idea to see if I achieve similar results as you did, if I try my home oven.  That way I will at least have a starting point to compare how my home oven and deck oven differs in bakes of cracker-style crusts.

I also will look at PMQ later tonight or tomorrow and see if there are any posts about pizza operators baking cracker-style crusts in a deck oven, and what temperatures they might be using.

Norma


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #167 on: July 28, 2011, 07:52:35 PM »
Peter,

I always have a hard time searching at PMQTT, but this is what I found.

This post by pcuezze at PMQTT might be what you were referring to.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8430&p=56895#p56895

At this post pcuezze he bakes right on a deck oven at 550 degrees.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10222&p=70213#p70213

550 degrees right on the deck sounds  hot to me.

I also looked at posts by deaconvolker and it does look like he might bake cracker-style pizzas, in addition to others.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10398&p=71521&hilit=cracker#p71512

Maybe deaconvolkerís oven and oven temperature.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10330&p=71048#p71048

and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10223&p=70177#p70177

I guess there is a lot of conflicting information on using a commercial oven for cracker-style pizzas.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #168 on: July 29, 2011, 03:46:10 PM »
Norma,

You did a good job finding the two former members of this forum who now have their own pizzerias. I was specifically thinking of pcuezze (Patrick) because I recalled that he was using a version of DKM's cracker-style recipe, which he developed while he was active on our forum. What I found interesting is that both Patrick and deaconvolker (Deacon Volker on our forum) discussed using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. No doubt, this can mean different things in different ovens. Patrick was/is using a double deck Blodgett oven for his thin cracker style pizzas whereas deaconvolker is using a conveyor oven. At one point, I am pretty sure that Patrick posted photos via a link but when I found the link and tried to open it, it was no longer operative.

I thought that you might be interested in the following PMQ Think Tank thread: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54479. From the information that Patrick posted in that thread on the skin he used for the cracker style pizza, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.06 (in a later post he mentions a thickness factor of 0.55-0.58 but I am sure he meant 0.055-0.058). The 0.06 value is one that I mentioned to you to get a crispy crust version of DKM's cracker style pizza. You might also note Tom Lehmann's comment at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54899 where he mentions using PZ-44 with a low hydration dough to "get the dough to press out decently". As you know, PZ-44 includes L-Cysteine, which is also one of the ingredients in the EL-7 product that you have been testing with DKM's basic recipe.

You might also find these threads/posts by Patrick of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7614.msg65298.html#msg65298 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10310.msg90547.html#msg90547.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #169 on: July 29, 2011, 07:27:13 PM »
Norma,

You did a good job finding the two former members of this forum who now have their own pizzerias. I was specifically thinking of pcuezze (Patrick) because I recalled that he was using a version of DKM's cracker-style recipe, which he developed while he was active on our forum. What I found interesting is that both Patrick and deaconvolker (Deacon Volker on our forum) discussed using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. No doubt, this can mean different things in different ovens. Patrick was/is using a double deck Blodgett oven for his thin cracker style pizzas whereas deaconvolker is using a conveyor oven. At one point, I am pretty sure that Patrick posted photos via a link but when I found the link and tried to open it, it was no longer operative.

I thought that you might be interested in the following PMQ Think Tank thread: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54479. From the information that Patrick posted in that thread on the skin he used for the cracker style pizza, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.06 (in a later post he mentions a thickness factor of 0.55-0.58 but I am sure he meant 0.055-0.058). The 0.06 value is one that I mentioned to you to get a crispy crust version of DKM's cracker style pizza. You might also note Tom Lehmann's comment at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54899 where he mentions using PZ-44 with a low hydration dough to "get the dough to press out decently". As you know, PZ-44 includes L-Cysteine, which is also one of the ingredients in the EL-7 product that you have been testing with DKM's basic recipe.

You might also find these threads/posts by Patrick of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7614.msg65298.html#msg65298 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10310.msg90547.html#msg90547.

Peter

Peter,

I saw those posts over at PMQTT from Tom and Patrick, but didnít see their posts on this forum. 
It is interesting that Patrick used a flatbeater to mix his dough for his cracker-style pizza at home, and he also laminated his dough and used high-gluten flour.  Now I am torn between trying your brand of flour and the KASL flour I do have here at home.  What flour do you now recommend.  I also saw Patrick and Deacon Volker used two different kinds of ovens from their posts at PMQTT.

I also saw the link to Johnís (fazzariís) formula you calculated from the other link on Patrick thread.

When I went to market today,  I looked in my deli case there was the cut off piece of dough from Tuesday.  I weighed it when I came home from market, and it weighed 101 grams.  I wonder if that dough would still be good to try in my home oven on my pizza stone, just to see how the dough acts in my home oven, without a pan.  The 101 grams, still doesnít account for the small amount I cut off the dough when I cut the dough to make it round.

I did know PZ-44 contains L-Cysteine, which is one of the ingredients of the EL-7 product.

Thanks for the additional links!

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #170 on: July 29, 2011, 09:04:11 PM »
Norma,

I also tried using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer to make a DKM cracker-style pizza dough and, in so doing, like Patrick, I used the paddle (flat beater) attachment in lieu of the C-hook. I discussed my results at Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49400.html#msg49400. For the dough described in that post, I used the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour. I might have tried the KASL flour but by that time I had used up all of my KASL flour and did not want to buy a new 50-pound bag because of the problems I have here in Texas with flour bugs and their rampant sexual promiscuity that goes on in my pantry. That is one of the reasons why I now stick to what I can find in my local supermarkets and buy in small quantities. In your case, you should feel free to use whatever flour you want, except I would not use all-purpose flour this time. 

With respect to the piece of dough that you have that weighs 101 grams, if you want to make a small pizza out of it using a thickness factor of say, 0.06, the size of the pizza comes to two times the square root of (101)/(28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.06) = 8.7", or a bit shy of 9". I wouldn't worry about the skin being exactly round. The purpose of the test would be to get an idea as to the character of the crust when baked in your home oven. Of course, you may have to adjust the bake times because of the small size of the pizza.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #171 on: July 29, 2011, 10:54:21 PM »
Norma,

I also tried using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer to make a DKM cracker-style pizza dough and, in so doing, like Patrick, I used the paddle (flat beater) attachment in lieu of the C-hook. I discussed my results at Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49400.html#msg49400. For the dough described in that post, I used the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour. I might have tried the KASL flour but by that time I had used up all of my KASL flour and did not want to buy a new 50-pound bag because of the problems I have here in Texas with flour bugs and their rampant sexual promiscuity that goes on in my pantry. That is one of the reasons why I now stick to what I can find in my local supermarkets and buy in small quantities. In your case, you should feel free to use whatever flour you want, except I would not use all-purpose flour this time.  

With respect to the piece of dough that you have that weighs 101 grams, if you want to make a small pizza out of it using a thickness factor of say, 0.06, the size of the pizza comes to two times the square root of (101)/(28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.06) = 8.7", or a bit shy of 9". I wouldn't worry about the skin being exactly round. The purpose of the test would be to get an idea as to the character of the crust when baked in your home oven. Of course, you may have to adjust the bake times because of the small size of the pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to where you made the DKM cracker-style dough with a autolyse and a paddle attachment.  After what you reported on that pizza, about it was a bit different than the crust made with the your food processor, I think I will stick to my food processor, at least for the next experiment. I will think it over, whether I want to try Harvest King/Better for Bread flour, or KASL.  I have both of those flours.  I better soon start using up all the flours I have in my kitchen, or I might have the same problems as you did.  I had to chuckle about you saying about your flour bugs, and their rampant sexual promiscuity, that goes on in your pantry.  

I will try a small pizza tomorrow out of the 101 grams of dough I had left.  I remembered I had saved the dough for my daughter that likes raw pie dough, but forgot about it, in a rush to get out of the heat.  My daughter also thinks the leftover cracker-style dough is good to eat raw.  Thanks for figuring out how much I should roll out the dough. I do want to see how different the leftover piece of dough bakes at a lower bake temperature.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 10:56:13 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #172 on: July 30, 2011, 11:37:18 AM »
If I must say so myself, my home oven made a big difference, in the scrap dough I used for the cracker-style pizza.  The cracker-style pizza made today was really very enjoyable, and not tough like the last 3 attempts at market.  Each bite was crackery, crisp, and tender.  I really enjoy this style of pizza now.  I almost was ready to give up, on the cracker-style pizza, because I sure wasnít liking my results before.  I now think I found a new kind of pizza I really like.  I ate three small slices of this pie. 

This small pie was dressed with Lesís tomato sauce I made yesterday, a blend of mozzarella, and fresh basil from my garden after the bake.

Thanks Peter, for helping learn more about this style of pizza, and helping me though the process, until I finally got it right.  :)

Pictures below

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #173 on: July 30, 2011, 11:38:26 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #174 on: July 30, 2011, 11:39:43 AM »
Norma