Author Topic: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough  (Read 28514 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #160 on: July 27, 2011, 05:37:03 PM »
Norma,

I think that often the confusion about the cracker style of pizza stems from semantics. For example, the terms "cracker", "cracker style", "cracker-like", "crackery", "crunchy", and "crispy" can mean different things to different people. Even the term "tender" has a different meaning in the context of the cracker style pizza than for other types of crusts. The DKM recipe you have been using is DKM's interpretation of a true cracker style crust that was popularized by Pizza Inn many years ago. Yet, I have seen the above terms used for pizza crusts that, in my opinion, are quite different than the DKM Pizza Inn type of crust. Examples include the Chicago cracker style pizza, such as the Vito & Nick's pizza (see also Tom Lehmann's recipe at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_161/title_Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/), the DeLorenzo pizzas, the Monical and Round Table pizzas, and even the Mack's pizzas. Sometimes the above terms are also used with terms like chewy to describe other parts of a pizza crust. As we have learned, it is not always easy to make any pizza identically every time. A pizza intended to have a soft crust can have chewy and cracker-like parts and, conversely, a pizza intended to be cracker-like can have soft, chewy parts.

If you would like to try to find the species of cracker style pizza that you like the best, and at the same time learn something about the different possible textural characteristics of a cracker style crust, I would like to suggest the following. I suggest that you make two pizzas that are identical in every way,  except for the thickness factor. For one of the pizzas, I would use a thickness factor for the skin as it is fitted into the pan of 0.09. For the other pizza, I would use a thickness factor of about 0.05-0.06 for the skin as it is fitted in its pan. The reason I asked you the questions about the pan size and the weight of the skin in the pan was to be able to determine the corresponding thickness factor. Knowing that might have allowed me to explain your results. If you decide to conduct the test suggested above, you can use the EL-7 product for both doughs, or you can run the test without that product (and use your proofing box if necessary). If you choose to use the EL-7 product, you can post your results in this thread. If you'd like, you can also make the two pizzas on separate occasions so long as they are identical as much as possible but for the thickness factor as discussed above. Hopefully, making the two pizzas you will experience different crust textures from which you may develop a preference or, in the alternative, get ideas for improvement if you decide to proceed further with that style.

The question about the type and brand of flour was raised because the type of flour used for the cracker style pizza can make a difference. As DKM has noted, the three basic kinds of white flour, including all-purpose flour, bread flour and high-gluten flour, can all be used to make the DKM cracker style pizza. I personally found that I liked the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour better than all-purpose flour, whereas other members indicated that their favorite flour was a high-gluten flour. Bread flour and high-gluten flour promote increased crust flavor and increased crust coloration. I briefly touched upon the flour issue at Reply 159 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg71979.html#msg71979 (note also the discussion of crust chararacteristics) and also in Reply 135 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53189.html#msg53189. In Reply 135 I also espoused a pet theory of mine that a thin cracker style crust has a different impact on the palate because each bite of a cracker style pizza has proportionately less crust in each bite than with most other pizzas with much thicker crusts (assuming the same things on the pizzas). If my theory is right, that might help explain why you seem to prefer thicker crusts over thinner crusts. Or it may simply be a case that you just don't like cracker style crusts and pizzas, based on flavor, crust characteristics or maybe even both.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for explaining about how the different terms can mean different things to different people.  When I thought about making the cracker-style, I thought the crust would be something like a cracker, in that it would be crisp, yet crackery, or easy to eat.  That wasnít the case in any of the cracker-style  pizzas I had made with the EL-7 product.  I guess it is hard to explain what I thought the crust should be like.  Since I never really ate a cracker-style or even much thin crusted pizzas, I really didnít know what to expect though.  I know when I tried the real Ultra-Thin crust in NY, I thought those crusts were what I would have considered to be something that I would like in a cracker-style, but when I actually bought the real skins and then try to make the Ultra-thin clones, I was disappointed.  Those crusts in NY were almost melt in your mouth crispy and tender at the same time, if I can explain it right. 

I would like to find the species of cracker style pizza I like best, and also learn something about the different possible textural characteristics of a cracker style crust. I will take your advise and try the same dough formula, but use two different TF for next week.  What formula do you suggest I try for this coming week, and how much of the EL-7 product do you suggest I use in the formula. Would I still use a formula for a 15" skin, cut to 14"?   I wanted to also explain that the crust did still shrink some even with the EL-7 added to the formula during the bake. I will buy some Harvest King flour for the next experiment.

I guess I will find out if I like a cracker-style crust and pizza after a few  more experiments.

Norma

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/record/57734/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 10:46:48 AM by Pete-zza »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #161 on: July 27, 2011, 07:22:26 PM »
Norma,

I would use the same dough formulation you used the last time. For the first dough, I would use a starting thickness factor of 0.07 for a 15" skin that is cut back to 14" to be fitted into the 14" pan. The thickness factor for the skin itself when in the pan should be around 0.05-0.06. For the second dough, I think I would use a starting thickness factor of around 0.105, with the objective of ending up with a 14" skin with a thickness factor of around 0.09 when fitted within its 14" pan.

To put matters into perspective, I estimate that the thickness factor for a skin made in accordance with DKM's instructions to be around 0.09. It is always a challenge to take a large skin and cut a smaller skin out of it to fit its pan and to have a thickness factor that yields the desired finished crust characteristics. This would not be a problem if you were able to roll out a piece of dough using a rolling pin to exactly 14" and have a final skin that is perfectly round. That is not likely. That is why I use a larger starting thickness factor to make a larger skin from which to cut out the smaller skin to fit the pan. In a commercial setting, this would not be a problem because, according to Tom Lehmann, at Reply 152 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg65671/topicseen.html#msg65671, there is commercial equipment that can take a dough ball and turn it into a skin of the desired size without any scrap.

I don't have an explanation as to why you experienced some shrinkage in the skin that was kept sealed. My recollection is that I sometimes experienced the same thing and that I just let the skin warm up to see if I could get it back to its desired size. One solution may be to make the final skin a bit larger, as by additional rolling. With some shrinkage, you may still be OK.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #162 on: July 27, 2011, 09:49:55 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for giving me the formula and instructions to try for my next attempts.  I understand it probably will be a challenge for me to roll out the skin, cut it, and then have the right TF.  I will see what happens with that.  I will weigh any cut off dough this time.

To clarify what I meant about the shrinkage in the skin, it wasnít when the skin was in the plastic bag, it was after the skin had baked.  I guess always there is shrinkage in a skin after baking, even when using the EL-7 product.  One thing that makes me curious about this style of pizza is how long in total time it takes to bake.  With the skin having such a low TF, I would think the total baking time would be shorter.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #163 on: July 28, 2011, 10:26:22 AM »
One thing that makes me curious about this style of pizza is how long in total time it takes to bake.  With the skin having such a low TF, I would think the total baking time would be shorter.

Norma,

In my oven using my cutter pan, I pre-baked the skins at around 475 degrees F for 4 or 5 minutes (or until the pre-baked skins start to take on color) and, after dressing the pizzas, for about another 7 or 8 minutes at 475 degrees F. It is the long bake at lower than usual temperatures that helps drive out the moisture and produce a dry, crispy or cracker-like crust. The thickness factor is material but only when considered with the low hydration value. At a much higher hydration value, it would take longer to get the crust dry. A major limiting factor of all cracker-style crusts is the hydration value. Once you start to get above about 40-45%, it gets harder to achieve a cracker or crispy quality. In my opinion, you have a much better shot in the mid-30s hydration range.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #164 on: July 28, 2011, 11:30:58 AM »
Norma,

In my oven using my cutter pan, I pre-baked the skins at around 475 degrees F for 4 or 5 minutes (or until the pre-baked skins start to take on color) and, after dressing the pizzas, for about another 7 or 8 minutes at 475 degrees F. It is the long bake at lower than usual temperatures that helps drive out the moisture and produce a dry, crispy or cracker-like crust. The thickness factor is material but only when considered with the low hydration value. At a much higher hydration value, it would take longer to get the crust dry. A major limiting factor of all cracker-style crusts is the hydration value. Once you start to get above about 40-45%, it gets harder to achieve a cracker or crispy quality. In my opinion, you have a much better shot in the mid-30s hydration range.

Peter

I read most of all the instructions you and others gave for making a cracker-style pizza and saw what temperatures the cracker-style pizzas were being baked at.  I wonder if since my bake tempertures on my deck oven are higher, if that somehow affects my results.  Maybe my higher bake temperatures might be drying the crust out too fast.  I had thought about that the past 3 weeks.  I am now wondering if I should just try my two next experiments at home.  I also wonder what temperatures real pizza operators that make cracker-style pizzas use, and if they just bake them right on the deck.  I have seen that some of them are baked right on the deck.  Thanks for your help, again!

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #165 on: July 28, 2011, 02:05:22 PM »
Norma,

Often what happens when you bake a pizza at too high a temperature is that the crust takes on the desired degree of coloration but before the rest of the pizza has finished baking. As a result, the crust can be softer and more tender than desired. I think in your case you might try making the pizzas at home since that would simulate the way that I made my cracker-style pizzas and from which I developed my personal preferences.

I will do some research on typical bake temperatures for commercial cracker-style pizzas. I seem to recall that one of our members who went on to open up his own pizzeria, where I believes he serves a cracker-style pizza, talked about his baking methods over at the PMQ Think Tank.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #166 on: July 28, 2011, 05:14:00 PM »
Norma,

Often what happens when you bake a pizza at too high a temperature is that the crust takes on the desired degree of coloration but before the rest of the pizza has finished baking. As a result, the crust can be softer and more tender than desired. I think in your case you might try making the pizzas at home since that would simulate the way that I made my cracker-style pizzas and from which I developed my personal preferences.

I will do some research on typical bake temperatures for commercial cracker-style pizzas. I seem to recall that one of our members who went on to open up his own pizzeria, where I believes he serves a cracker-style pizza, talked about his baking methods over at the PMQ Think Tank.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for letting me know that if a pizza is baked at too high of a temperature the crust gets coloration, before the rest of the pizza is finished baking.  I think I had the opposite thing happen to me, as the crust was too tough and maybe too dark.  Maybe I baked the cracker-style too long, but I was trying to watch the pre-bake and final pizza bake, but couldnít really tell how long to let it in the deck oven.  I will bring my blackbuster steel pan home tomorrow, and try one experiment each week, because I surely canít eat two pizzas at once, without the taste testers at market.  I think it is a good idea to see if I achieve similar results as you did, if I try my home oven.  That way I will at least have a starting point to compare how my home oven and deck oven differs in bakes of cracker-style crusts.

I also will look at PMQ later tonight or tomorrow and see if there are any posts about pizza operators baking cracker-style crusts in a deck oven, and what temperatures they might be using.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #167 on: July 28, 2011, 07:52:35 PM »
Peter,

I always have a hard time searching at PMQTT, but this is what I found.

This post by pcuezze at PMQTT might be what you were referring to.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8430&p=56895#p56895

At this post pcuezze he bakes right on a deck oven at 550 degrees.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10222&p=70213#p70213

550 degrees right on the deck sounds  hot to me.

I also looked at posts by deaconvolker and it does look like he might bake cracker-style pizzas, in addition to others.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10398&p=71521&hilit=cracker#p71512

Maybe deaconvolkerís oven and oven temperature.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10330&p=71048#p71048

and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10223&p=70177#p70177

I guess there is a lot of conflicting information on using a commercial oven for cracker-style pizzas.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #168 on: July 29, 2011, 03:46:10 PM »
Norma,

You did a good job finding the two former members of this forum who now have their own pizzerias. I was specifically thinking of pcuezze (Patrick) because I recalled that he was using a version of DKM's cracker-style recipe, which he developed while he was active on our forum. What I found interesting is that both Patrick and deaconvolker (Deacon Volker on our forum) discussed using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. No doubt, this can mean different things in different ovens. Patrick was/is using a double deck Blodgett oven for his thin cracker style pizzas whereas deaconvolker is using a conveyor oven. At one point, I am pretty sure that Patrick posted photos via a link but when I found the link and tried to open it, it was no longer operative.

I thought that you might be interested in the following PMQ Think Tank thread: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54479. From the information that Patrick posted in that thread on the skin he used for the cracker style pizza, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.06 (in a later post he mentions a thickness factor of 0.55-0.58 but I am sure he meant 0.055-0.058). The 0.06 value is one that I mentioned to you to get a crispy crust version of DKM's cracker style pizza. You might also note Tom Lehmann's comment at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54899 where he mentions using PZ-44 with a low hydration dough to "get the dough to press out decently". As you know, PZ-44 includes L-Cysteine, which is also one of the ingredients in the EL-7 product that you have been testing with DKM's basic recipe.

You might also find these threads/posts by Patrick of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7614.msg65298.html#msg65298 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10310.msg90547.html#msg90547.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #169 on: July 29, 2011, 07:27:13 PM »
Norma,

You did a good job finding the two former members of this forum who now have their own pizzerias. I was specifically thinking of pcuezze (Patrick) because I recalled that he was using a version of DKM's cracker-style recipe, which he developed while he was active on our forum. What I found interesting is that both Patrick and deaconvolker (Deacon Volker on our forum) discussed using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. No doubt, this can mean different things in different ovens. Patrick was/is using a double deck Blodgett oven for his thin cracker style pizzas whereas deaconvolker is using a conveyor oven. At one point, I am pretty sure that Patrick posted photos via a link but when I found the link and tried to open it, it was no longer operative.

I thought that you might be interested in the following PMQ Think Tank thread: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54479. From the information that Patrick posted in that thread on the skin he used for the cracker style pizza, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.06 (in a later post he mentions a thickness factor of 0.55-0.58 but I am sure he meant 0.055-0.058). The 0.06 value is one that I mentioned to you to get a crispy crust version of DKM's cracker style pizza. You might also note Tom Lehmann's comment at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54899 where he mentions using PZ-44 with a low hydration dough to "get the dough to press out decently". As you know, PZ-44 includes L-Cysteine, which is also one of the ingredients in the EL-7 product that you have been testing with DKM's basic recipe.

You might also find these threads/posts by Patrick of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7614.msg65298.html#msg65298 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10310.msg90547.html#msg90547.

Peter

Peter,

I saw those posts over at PMQTT from Tom and Patrick, but didnít see their posts on this forum. 
It is interesting that Patrick used a flatbeater to mix his dough for his cracker-style pizza at home, and he also laminated his dough and used high-gluten flour.  Now I am torn between trying your brand of flour and the KASL flour I do have here at home.  What flour do you now recommend.  I also saw Patrick and Deacon Volker used two different kinds of ovens from their posts at PMQTT.

I also saw the link to Johnís (fazzariís) formula you calculated from the other link on Patrick thread.

When I went to market today,  I looked in my deli case there was the cut off piece of dough from Tuesday.  I weighed it when I came home from market, and it weighed 101 grams.  I wonder if that dough would still be good to try in my home oven on my pizza stone, just to see how the dough acts in my home oven, without a pan.  The 101 grams, still doesnít account for the small amount I cut off the dough when I cut the dough to make it round.

I did know PZ-44 contains L-Cysteine, which is one of the ingredients of the EL-7 product.

Thanks for the additional links!

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #170 on: July 29, 2011, 09:04:11 PM »
Norma,

I also tried using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer to make a DKM cracker-style pizza dough and, in so doing, like Patrick, I used the paddle (flat beater) attachment in lieu of the C-hook. I discussed my results at Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49400.html#msg49400. For the dough described in that post, I used the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour. I might have tried the KASL flour but by that time I had used up all of my KASL flour and did not want to buy a new 50-pound bag because of the problems I have here in Texas with flour bugs and their rampant sexual promiscuity that goes on in my pantry. That is one of the reasons why I now stick to what I can find in my local supermarkets and buy in small quantities. In your case, you should feel free to use whatever flour you want, except I would not use all-purpose flour this time. 

With respect to the piece of dough that you have that weighs 101 grams, if you want to make a small pizza out of it using a thickness factor of say, 0.06, the size of the pizza comes to two times the square root of (101)/(28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.06) = 8.7", or a bit shy of 9". I wouldn't worry about the skin being exactly round. The purpose of the test would be to get an idea as to the character of the crust when baked in your home oven. Of course, you may have to adjust the bake times because of the small size of the pizza.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #171 on: July 29, 2011, 10:54:21 PM »
Norma,

I also tried using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer to make a DKM cracker-style pizza dough and, in so doing, like Patrick, I used the paddle (flat beater) attachment in lieu of the C-hook. I discussed my results at Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49400.html#msg49400. For the dough described in that post, I used the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour. I might have tried the KASL flour but by that time I had used up all of my KASL flour and did not want to buy a new 50-pound bag because of the problems I have here in Texas with flour bugs and their rampant sexual promiscuity that goes on in my pantry. That is one of the reasons why I now stick to what I can find in my local supermarkets and buy in small quantities. In your case, you should feel free to use whatever flour you want, except I would not use all-purpose flour this time.  

With respect to the piece of dough that you have that weighs 101 grams, if you want to make a small pizza out of it using a thickness factor of say, 0.06, the size of the pizza comes to two times the square root of (101)/(28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.06) = 8.7", or a bit shy of 9". I wouldn't worry about the skin being exactly round. The purpose of the test would be to get an idea as to the character of the crust when baked in your home oven. Of course, you may have to adjust the bake times because of the small size of the pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to where you made the DKM cracker-style dough with a autolyse and a paddle attachment.  After what you reported on that pizza, about it was a bit different than the crust made with the your food processor, I think I will stick to my food processor, at least for the next experiment. I will think it over, whether I want to try Harvest King/Better for Bread flour, or KASL.  I have both of those flours.  I better soon start using up all the flours I have in my kitchen, or I might have the same problems as you did.  I had to chuckle about you saying about your flour bugs, and their rampant sexual promiscuity, that goes on in your pantry.  

I will try a small pizza tomorrow out of the 101 grams of dough I had left.  I remembered I had saved the dough for my daughter that likes raw pie dough, but forgot about it, in a rush to get out of the heat.  My daughter also thinks the leftover cracker-style dough is good to eat raw.  Thanks for figuring out how much I should roll out the dough. I do want to see how different the leftover piece of dough bakes at a lower bake temperature.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 10:56:13 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #172 on: July 30, 2011, 11:37:18 AM »
If I must say so myself, my home oven made a big difference, in the scrap dough I used for the cracker-style pizza.  The cracker-style pizza made today was really very enjoyable, and not tough like the last 3 attempts at market.  Each bite was crackery, crisp, and tender.  I really enjoy this style of pizza now.  I almost was ready to give up, on the cracker-style pizza, because I sure wasnít liking my results before.  I now think I found a new kind of pizza I really like.  I ate three small slices of this pie. 

This small pie was dressed with Lesís tomato sauce I made yesterday, a blend of mozzarella, and fresh basil from my garden after the bake.

Thanks Peter, for helping learn more about this style of pizza, and helping me though the process, until I finally got it right.  :)

Pictures below

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #173 on: July 30, 2011, 11:38:26 AM »
Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #174 on: July 30, 2011, 11:39:43 AM »
Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #175 on: July 30, 2011, 11:42:23 AM »
I mixed another cracker-style dough this morning and used the same formula I did before, but used Better for Bread flour and Flesichmannís ADY.  I did sift the flour before mixing, in my food processor, so maybe the dough would hydrate better.

Pictures below

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #176 on: July 30, 2011, 12:37:43 PM »
These are the pictures of the rolling out and cutting process.  There was 150 grams of dough I did cut off.  Hopefully the TF is okay.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #177 on: July 30, 2011, 12:38:18 PM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #178 on: July 30, 2011, 12:47:10 PM »
If I must say so myself, my home oven made a big difference, in the scrap dough I used for the cracker-style pizza.  The cracker-style pizza made today was really very enjoyable, and not tough like the last 3 attempts at market.  Each bite was crackery, crisp, and tender.  I really enjoy this style of pizza now.  I almost was ready to give up, on the cracker-style pizza, because I sure wasnít liking my results before.  I now think I found a new kind of pizza I really like.  I ate three small slices of this pie. 

Norma,

I'm glad that things worked out better for you this time with the cracker-style pizza you made. I'm glad that I was able to talk you back in off of the ledge :-D. I, too, had a rough time with the cracker style when I first experimented with it. But, I stuck with it, refusing to let it beat me. I eventually concluded that the skin thickness (thickness factor) was an important component to success, along with being able to get the dough in good enough condition to be able to roll it out easily and quickly. The use of a cutter pan was also an important component for my particular oven and home application. For me, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg48991.html#msg48991 became my "bible" for the cracker style because it was pretty much self contained with a lot of detailed dough formulations and instructions and techniques and hints for many different variations of DKM's recipe and a lot of other useful information and guidance that John Fazzari, BTB, Jon (Jackitup) and a few other members contributed to that style.

Had I thought of it, I would have mentioned earlier that I, too, found that I could use scrap dough to make a small cracker style pizza, as I noted at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49257.html#msg49257. In that instance, I used a lamination method and I did not pre-bake the skin but the skin had a thickness factor of about 0.06, as I have mentioned before as being a good value for my purposes. If you decide to use scrap again to make a cracker style pizza, you may want to heed what I learned from an experiment I discussed at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50088.html#msg50088. As I noted there, you can go overboard with a very long fermented dough and end up with some funky crust tastes.

In due course, you might try using a considerably higher thickness factor for comprison purposes and to see if you like the results better than your recent effort.

For your latest dough ball did you use the EL-7 product again and, if so, to what effect? Also, did you weigh the final dough skin? That would allow us to calculate the thickness factor for the skin (I assume a 14" skin from the photos).

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #179 on: July 30, 2011, 01:41:58 PM »
Norma,

I'm glad that things worked out better for you this time with the cracker-style pizza you made. I'm glad that I was able to talk you back in off of the ledge :-D. I, too, had a rough time with the cracker style when I first experimented with it. But, I stuck with it, refusing to let it beat me. I eventually concluded that the skin thickness (thickness factor) was an important component to success, along with being able to get the dough in good enough condition to be able to roll it out easily and quickly. The use of a cutter pan was also an important component for my particular oven and home application. For me, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg48991.html#msg48991 became my "bible" for the cracker style because it was pretty much self contained with a lot of detailed dough formulations and instructions and techniques and hints for many different variations of DKM's recipe and a lot of other useful information and guidance that John Fazzari, BTB, Jon (Jackitup) and a few other members contributed to that style.

Had I thought of it, I would have mentioned earlier that I, too, found that I could use scrap dough to make a small cracker style pizza, as I noted at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49257.html#msg49257. In that instance, I used a lamination method and I did not pre-bake the skin but the skin had a thickness factor of about 0.06, as I have mentioned before as being a good value for my purposes. If you decide to use scrap again to make a cracker style pizza, you may want to heed what I learned from an experiment I discussed at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50088.html#msg50088. As I noted there, you can go overboard with a very long fermented dough and end up with some funky crust tastes.

In due course, you might try using a considerably higher thickness factor for comprison purposes and to see if you like the results better than your recent effort.

For your latest dough ball did you use the EL-7 product again and, if so, to what effect? Also, did you weigh the final dough skin? That would allow us to calculate the thickness factor for the skin (I assume a 14" skin from the photos).

Peter

Peter/Thelma,

I am glad I wasnít the only member that had trouble learning to make a cracker-style pizza.  I, as you, never tasted a real cracker-style pizza, so I had no reference either, to how they must taste, just like you.  After my first three attempts, I knew that couldnít be how a cracker-style pizza tasted, but I wasnít sure what I was doing wrong.  I had followed what I thought were the right directions, from you and others, but my crust kept getting tough.  I am now glad you kept ďegging meĒ on to learn and not go over the ledge.  :-D Since I donít have a  dark cutter pan, I thought why wouldnít a blackbuster steel pan work, but wasnít sure if the blackbuster steel pan was also causing me problems.  I am usually a stick to it kind of person, but when I couldnít figure out what I was doing wrong, I was almost ready to call it quits, until you came to my rescue again.

Thanks for linking me to your other posts.  I can see what kind of funky taste you got.  My dough really didnít look that good from Tuesday, but it still smelled okay.  The taste of the crust today was really good.  I was surprised how good a thin crust can taste.  When you and I were trying to make a clone of the Ultra-thin pizza crust, this is how I though the crusts tasted, when I went to the show in NY.  It is almost funny, that it took me so long to be finally able to created a crust like I remember.  :-D I guess I should have tried a cracker-style crust before.  At least it would have kept you and me from working so hard on trying to clone a Ultra-thin crust.  I did learn a lot in the Ultra-thin thread, but never was able to get that crust right to my taste.

If I used the extra piece of dough for lamination purposes, how big of a pizza would the extra piece of dough make?  I would like to try a laminated crust.

I did use the EL-7 product in todays dough, with the same amount I gave in my last formula.  I really donít think the EL-7 product did help the dough much.  I left the dough sit first on the kitchen table for an hour and felt it, and it felt way to dry for me, so it went into my homemade proofing box for almost 2 hrs. 

I didnít weigh the skin that I had cut out, but I now took it out of the plastic wrap, and did weigh it.  The skin weighs 177 grams.  That sounds like a lot of loss from what my dough should have weighed with the combined cut dough and the skin.  Both combinations should have been 350.69 grams.  The only guess I can make about that, is some of the dried crumbly parts were in the food processor, and maybe some on the food processor blades.

I am glad you stick with me Thelma/Peter.  At least I am able to experience new kinds of pizzas, I never tasted before.

Norma/Lousie
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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