Author Topic: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough  (Read 26617 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2011, 12:07:22 AM »
Norma,

Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?

CL


Craig,

One time Tom Lehmann either told me in a PM or somewhere that I posted on PMQTT, that  L-Cysteine wasn’t made from hair.  He said it changed how L-Cysteine is made.  I think I posted somewhere here on the forum what Tom Lehmann told me, if my memory serves me right.  I will look tomorrow and see if I can find the post.

Can you estimate the salt and shortening content from the nutritional information? It looks like they are the only meaningful sources of sodium and fat.

CL


At Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg138841.html#msg138841 is where I posted what ingredients are in the Stretch-Out product.  I didn't get any nutritional information with the Stretch-Out product.

The best way is probably water immersion. Put 1 3/4 cup of water in a 2 cup measuring cup and then put in enough Strech-out to raise the water line (with the Strech-out pushed under the surface) to 2 cups. You will then have exactly 1/4 cup of Strech-out. Measuring out 1 cup of Stech-out the same way and then diving by 4 will minimize measurement error.

CL


Thanks for telling me how you would go about measuring the Stretch-Out product for minimal error.  :) It was easy to measure the Stretch-Out today.

Norma



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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2011, 09:01:43 AM »
Norma,

Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?

CL


Craig,

This is the post at PMQTT that Tom Lehmann answered me about L-Cysteine. http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=63356#p63060

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2011, 09:35:50 AM »
Craig,

This is the post at PMQTT that Tom Lehmann answered me about L-Cysteine. http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=63356#p63060

Norma


I was just poking fun as you had commented previously about it coming from hair. I'm not sure "synthetically" is the right word as it is producued via mutant E. Coli - not a chemical reaction which is what I would associate with "synthetic." Not that it makes any difference. Chemically, it wouldn't be any different than if it was produced from hair. They didn't change the method because somebody thought hair was gross. Using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.

CL
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2011, 09:52:13 AM »
I was just poking fun as you had commented previously about it coming from hair. I'm not sure "synthetically" is the right word as it is producued via mutant E. Coli - not a chemical reaction which is what I would associate with "synthetic." Not that it makes any difference. Chemically, it wouldn't be any different than if it was produced from hair. They didn't change the method because somebody thought hair was gross. Using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.

CL

Craig,

Thanks for giving me more information about L-Cysteine.  I know using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.  You can poke fun at me anything.  :-D I don't mind.  I am always interested in learning something new and I had originally though L-Cysteine was gross.  I would use it in experiments though.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2011, 09:55:18 AM »
The Lehmann dough using the Stretch-Out product was an interesting experiment for Steve and me.  I cut the Stretch-Out product into the flour (with a fork) and used hot water to hand mix the dough with a spatula.  Steve suggested to let the dough sit for about 10 minutes, to fully hydrated the flour and other ingredients, and then it was mixed with a rubber spatula again, balled, then covered with olive oil. The dough ball looked like a normal dough ball.  Since I didn’t have another bigger plastic container, along at market, we decided to use a red container I had at market. We couldn’t watch how the dough was fermenting on the sides or bottom of the container, but felt the dough and looked at it, and decided to use it in less than 1 ˝ hrs. after it was mixed.  

The dough using the Stretch-Out product was easy to open, with no stretch back in the dough.  It looked like normal dough.  After the bake, Steve and I were both surprised how moist the crumb was of this pizza.  It was light and also tasty. The Stretch-Out pizza even had oven spring.  That is quite a feat for such a short time mix and fermentation.  Steve and I talked about how easy the dough was to mix and also how it was possible to get such a good tasting pie, in such a short while.

I gave Steve some of the Stretch-Out product to take to his home to try.

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 10:02:01 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2011, 09:57:44 AM »
more pictures

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2011, 10:00:03 AM »
end of pictures

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2011, 10:28:48 AM »
Norma,

It looks like a successful outcome. Did you detect any issues with the salt, either the crust being too bland or too salty?

I suspect that the large amount of yeast (0.883% IDY), together with the hot water, were mostly responsible for the rise in the dough and the oven spring. Using about 0.80% IDY and hot water are common for many emergency type doughs. The gluten cellular structure of such doughs is frequently not strong because the carbon dioxide production is so high and occurs so fast that the dough expands like a balloon, but a weak one that is prone to collapse if held too long. Since the pizzas are baked very quickly, before the dough can collapse or recede, you can end up with good oven spring.

I believe that what the Stretch-Out product does is to provide fat (partially hydrogenated oils), sugar (dextrose) and salt without having to add these to a basic dough recipe, and providing the L-cysteine to insure that the dough doesn't become "bucky". The ascorbic acid might help provide an acidic environment for the yeast, and the mono- and diglycerides help emulsify the fats.

There are a couple of things you might want to try in future experiments. One would be to try using high-gluten flour, as you usually do with your Lehmann doughs. The second would be to use normal water temperature, not hot water. Using hot water in a dough iself helps overcome a bucky dough condition. It would be interesting to see if the L-cysteine makes using hot water unnecessary. Maybe Edna can tell you if such is the case.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 10:30:39 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2011, 12:24:18 PM »
Norma,

It looks like a successful outcome. Did you detect any issues with the salt, either the crust being too bland or too salty?

I suspect that the large amount of yeast (0.883% IDY), together with the hot water, were mostly responsible for the rise in the dough and the oven spring. Using about 0.80% IDY and hot water are common for many emergency type doughs. The gluten cellular structure of such doughs is frequently not strong because the carbon dioxide production is so high and occurs so fast that the dough expands like a balloon, but a weak one that is prone to collapse if held too long. Since the pizzas are baked very quickly, before the dough can collapse or recede, you can end up with good oven spring.

I believe that what the Stretch-Out product does is to provide fat (partially hydrogenated oils), sugar (dextrose) and salt without having to add these to a basic dough recipe, and providing the L-cysteine to insure that the dough doesn't become "bucky". The ascorbic acid might help provide an acidic environment for the yeast, and the mono- and diglycerides help emulsify the fats.

There are a couple of things you might want to try in future experiments. One would be to try using high-gluten flour, as you usually do with your Lehmann doughs. The second would be to use normal water temperature, not hot water. Using hot water in a dough iself helps overcome a bucky dough condition. It would be interesting to see if the L-cysteine makes using hot water unnecessary. Maybe Edna can tell you if such is the case.

Peter

Peter,

Using the Stretch-Out in the Lehmann dough was successful, at least in Steve and my opinions.  The salt was just about right in Steve’s and my opinion, too.  Steve mentioned that this was his favorite pizza of the experimental pies we made yesterday.  Although I enjoyed this pie and thought it tasted good, even in the crust, it wasn’t my favorite experimental pie of the day.  Poor Steve, I told him to taste a little piece of the Stretch-Out and he also had the same opinion as I had when tasting the raw Stretch-Out.  He said he is never going to listen to me again and try something that he doesn’t know about.  :-D  He also commented how salty the Stretch-Out product was even though he only had a tiny piece. 

I had wondered why you had suggested the 0.883% IDY for the yeast amount.  Now I think I understand why you picked that value.  I wonder what amount Edna would suggest.  Your understanding of everything that has to do with pizza making has already helped in this first experiment. 

Thanks for explaining about what the ingredients in the Stretch-Out do in a dough.  I find those explanations interesting. 

I am going to email Edna my results in this first experiment with pictures so she can see how this experiment worked out.  I will ask Edna if hot water is necessary to add to the mix.

In my next experiment do you think the first thing I should do is try high-gluten flour to see what happens?

Thanks for your assessment of this experiment.  :)

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2011, 12:28:02 PM »
Norma,

Exciting results.

What % by weight of flour was the Stretch-out?

C:
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2011, 12:36:17 PM »
Norma,

Exciting results.

What % by weight of flour was the Stretch-out?

C:


Craig,

At Reply 22 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg139204.html#msg139204 you can see what formula I used, with the Stretch-Out product being 4% of the flour weight.  I had used  the Stretch-Out product in the Baker’s Non-Fat Milk field.

Steve and I found it interesting how fast a dough and final pizza could be made, with no problems with the dough or final bake.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2011, 02:42:11 PM »
I had wondered why you had suggested the 0.883% IDY for the yeast amount.  Now I think I understand why you picked that value.  I wonder what amount Edna would suggest.


Norma,

The pizza dough recipe that came with the Stretch-Out product called for 2.5 pounds of compressed yeast for 100 pounds of flour (Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg138841.html#msg138841). That comes to 2.5%. I simply converted from fresh yeast, which I assumed you did not have on hand, to IDY--by dividing 2.5% by 3 to get 0.833% IDY.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2011, 08:49:29 AM »
This is the email I received from Edna this morning about the temperature of water to use for the Stretch-Out product. I told Edna I had used hot water in my experiment with the Stretch-Out product.  I had asked Edna in my email if it mattered if I used really hot water.  I also told her I would think that a final dough temperature would be a better indicator of how the dough would preform. Included in my last email, I also had asked Edna about where to find Soybean or Cottonseed oil for another thread I am working on.

I had sent Edna pictures of the pizza made with the Stretch-Out product.

Good Morning Norma,
 
I love your results - - this is very reason I will have Pizza for lunch – LOL!   Your target dough temp. coming out of the bowl should be around 78 F.  I am not sure what the minimum is for Lentz Milling for the Soybean or Cottonseed Oil.
Lentz Milling
800-523-8131
2045 N. 11th Street
Reading, Pa. 19612-3159
 
Lentz is like US Foods – but they only Bakery Products.  You are lucky to have a distributor think Lentz in your State.  They carry all Caravan Products.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2011, 09:42:22 AM »
Norma,

Here is the link to the Lentz website: http://www.lentzmilling.com/. I believe that what you are looking for is a partially hydrogenated oil, such as partially hydrogenated soybean or cottonseed oil, or even a combination of those two oils. There should be nothing else in the compositions.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2011, 10:25:39 AM »
Norma,

Here is the link to the Lentz website: http://www.lentzmilling.com/. I believe that what you are looking for is a partially hydrogenated oil, such as partially hydrogenated soybean or cottonseed oil, or even a combination of those two oils. There should be nothing else in the compositions.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the link to the Lentz website.  I will use the contact page on the Lentz website and see if they have the oil or combination of oils to try in my mystery thread.  I only live about an hour away from Lentz, so I will see what they carry.  If they have what you suggested, I could go there and purchase the product.  I probably would have to create an account first.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2011, 11:52:16 AM »
The Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, was experimented with the same formula I had used before, but this time I used ADM bleached and bromated flour as the flour, to see what would happen.  This time the dough, mixed by hand, fermented quicker than last week.  It was ready to be used in less than 1 ˝ hrs.  I attributed the quicker ferment to the higher ambient temperatures at market yesterday, but I am not sure if that is why the dough did ferment faster.

The dough ball was very easy to open, and the final pizza did taste very good, with a decent oven spring and a nice moistness in the rim.  The only thing I could detect with using the ADM bleached and bromated flour, was the rim and bottom crust were much crisper, than when I used the KABF last week.  All in all, the Stretch-Out product does make a pizza dough really fast and the final taste of the crust is like about a 2 day cold fermented Lehmann dough.

Steve also got some interesting results with a Stretch-Out dough he brought to market yesterday.  He also tried a Stretch-Out Lehmann dough at home.  His formulas were a little bit different than mine.  Steve is having problems uploading all his pictures on his computer, but did say he would report on his results, when he can upload the pictures.  He used KASL in his experiments with the Stretch-Out product.  His first Stretch-Out pie was made at home and the other was made at market yesterday.  He took pictures of both bakes, so when he can get the pictures uploaded, he will post on his results.

Pictures of my Stretch-Out pizza yesterday.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2011, 12:01:01 PM »
more pictures

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2011, 12:03:21 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2011, 12:23:32 PM »
Norma,

Many pizza operators resort to emergency doughs when they either run out of their regular dough or something happens, like an overnight power failure, that renders the regular dough unusable. Tom Lehmann believes that one shouldn't ordinarily run out of dough with proper planning but he does approve of using emergency doughs as a result of something unexpected like a power failure. Usually the emergency dough is a version of the regular dough but with more yeast and hotter water. In your case, if you are satisfied with the Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, that could become your emergency dough version for use at market. It is unlikely to be the equal of your preferment Lehmann dough but most customers, if they even notice that the slices taste different, aren't likely to balk, especially under the circumstances.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2011, 02:49:04 PM »
Norma,

Many pizza operators resort to emergency doughs when they either run out of their regular dough or something happens, like an overnight power failure, that renders the regular dough unusable. Tom Lehmann believes that one shouldn't ordinarily run out of dough with proper planning but he does approve of using emergency doughs as a result of something unexpected like a power failure. Usually the emergency dough is a version of the regular dough but with more yeast and hotter water. In your case, if you are satisfied with the Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, that could become your emergency dough version for use at market. It is unlikely to be the equal of your preferment Lehmann dough but most customers, if they even notice that the slices taste different, aren't likely to balk, especially under the circumstances.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the idea to use the Stretch-Out product for an emergency Lehmann dough, if I would have a power failure or maybe one of my fridges wouldn’t work.  I don’t think the Stretch-Out Lehmann dough is as good as the preferment Lehmann dough, but it could work in an emergency.  I want to do a few more experiments with the Stretch-Out product, but so far I really like the results.

When I email Edna, I will ask her, if the Stretch-Out product can be frozen.  I never really had an emergency dough.  A little while ago, someone did turn the switch off at the one of the main fuse boxes and I don’t know how long my electricity was off, but I was worried about my dough. 

Norma
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