Author Topic: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough  (Read 36224 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2011, 09:57:09 PM »
Norma,

I think I would just force some of the Stretch-Out product into your measuring cup (tared) to fill it as completely as possible, level it off, and weigh it. I don't think that it is necessary to do multiple weighings and averaging several weighings. Another way might be to melt some of the Stretch-Out product, fill the (tared) measuring cup to the top, and weigh it.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 09:58:42 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2011, 10:34:49 PM »
Norma,

I think I would just force some of the Stretch-Out product into your measuring cup (tared) to fill it as completely as possible, level it off, and weigh it. I don't think that it is necessary to do multiple weighings and averaging several weighings. Another way might be to melt some of the Stretch-Out product, fill the (tared) measuring cup to the top, and weigh it.

Peter

I measured a stuffed 1/4 cup measuring cup of Stretch-Out and leveled it off with a knife 3 times. The first time it weighed 77 grams and the second and third times it weighed 78 grams.  I then put some of the Stretch-Out on the stove on low and melted it.  To fill the measuring cup, it then weighed 84 grams.  I did take the 78 grams and melted it, but I had to melt more of the Stretch-Out to fill the 1/4 measuring cup, after it was melted.  After the Stretch-Out was melted it changed color.  It was almost white, before measuring, but turned a light tan color after heating. Even on low temperature the Stretch-Out looked globby.  I did tare out the 1/4 measuring cup first each time.

I just felt the melted Stretch-Out, since I posted this.  The melted Stretch-Out fells almost like a rock, but does break-up if I dig my finger into it.

Norma
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 10:38:27 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2011, 10:48:01 PM »
Norma,

I wondered what would happen to the Stretch-Out product if you heated it. Since the product is intended to be used right out of its container, I would go with your weighings in solid form. On that basis, a teaspoon would weigh [(77 + 78 + 78)/3]/12 = 6.47 grams (0.23 ounces).

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2011, 10:58:05 PM »
Norma,

I wondered what would happen to the Stretch-Out product if you heated it. Since the product is intended to be used right out of its container, I would go with your weighings in solid form. On that basis, a teaspoon would weigh [(77 + 78 + 78)/3]/12 = 6.47 grams (0.23 ounces).

Peter

Peter,

I know the Stretch-Out product is intended to be used right out of the bag, or if kept in a container.  I thought is was weird how the Stretch-Out product melted.  The pan I melted it in, was very greasy after it was melted.  I sure wasn’t going to taste it again, because the salty taste is still in my mouth even after I drank different things.  I really wonder how much salt is in a small amount of Stretch-Out.  I don’t think I ever tasted anything that salty before.  I now wonder if the crust of the pizza will taste salty.

Thanks for figuring out what a teaspoon would weigh in solid form. 

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2011, 11:11:15 PM »
Norma,

You will be using 14.26 grams of the Stretch-Out product. That comes to 14.26/6.47 = a bit less than 2 1/4 teaspoons. Salt is the predominant ingredient in the Stretch-Out product by weight. However, I have to believe that the salt can't be so excessive as to produce an essentially inedible end product. Maybe Edna will shed some light on the salt content.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2011, 11:31:22 PM »
Norma,

You will be using 14.26 grams of the Stretch-Out product. That comes to 14.26/6.47 = a bit less than 2 1/4 teaspoons. Salt is the predominant ingredient in the Stretch-Out product by weight. However, I have to believe that the salt can't be so excessive as to produce an essentially inedible end product. Maybe Edna will shed some light on the salt content.

Peter

Peter,

I know salt is the predominant ingredient in the Stretch-Out product.  I don’t think either, that the salt would be too excessive as to produce an inedible pizza, but never thought I would taste anything that was that salty.  I do have an email sent to Edna now with the other questions you had. I will follow-up to see if Edna knows enough about the salt in the Stretch-Out product.

I am curious about tasting a pizza using the Stretch-Out product to see how it compares with other pizzas I have made, in the terms of salt and also oil.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2011, 07:15:29 AM »
This is the email I received from Edna this morning, regarding the questions I had asked.

Good Morning Norma,
 
By reading the ingredient ledger Salt is the main ingredients in this product.  Caravan will not release percentages of what is in the base – sorry.

Edna

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2011, 10:27:31 AM »
Caravan will not release percentages of what is in the base – sorry.

Norma,

I can't say that I am surprised by the response from Edna but I was hoping that she might make an exception in this case on the salt content because bakers often want, or need, to know what is in their product, especially something like the amount of salt, which can sometimes make or break a recipe. However, since the Stretch-Out product has to work for its intended purpose (in this case, a pizza dough), I would imagine that the salt quantity falls within the more or less classic 1.5-2% range. It may even lean to the low side so that users can add more in case it is needed.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2011, 11:58:19 AM »
Peter,

I told Edna in my email that I wanted to know if she knew how much salt and partially hydrogenated oil (s) by percent, was in the Stretch-Out, so maybe the dough I used at market could be modified to include another homemade dough enhancer I was experimenting with.  I told Edna my dough at market starts with a poolish and then told her how I went about letting the poolish cold ferment to then make the final dough later.

I guess they don’t want to tell the ingredients by percentage so someone could exactly figure out how to make the Stretch-Out products.

I guess I will see tomorrow how the crust tastes (in salt amounts), after the pizza is baked.

Norma


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2011, 01:57:28 PM »
Norma,

Following up on Reply 21 in which I discussed how to treat the Stretch-Out product, I did a search of the PMQ Think Tank archives to see if Tom Lehmann ever posted on how to handle shortening when used as part of a dough formulation, that is, whether it can be added directly to the flour or after the dough has been mixed for a while. As you can see from Tom's PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38155&hilit=#p38163, the answer turns on whether the shortening is in liquid or solid form. If it is liquid, then it should go in after the initial mix, much like oil, whereas if the shortening is solid, as is the case with the Stretch-Out product, it can be added to the flour. This suggests that you could perhaps combine all of your ingredients in a "goody bag" form if you wish. This would be consistent with the way that the Bisquick mixes are made. It is also consistent with the Caravan instructions for using the Stretch-Out product to make a pizza dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 11:56:26 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2011, 02:14:21 PM »
Norma,

Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?

CL
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2011, 02:17:15 PM »
I don’t know why I thought the Stretch-Out was a powder, but just a little while ago, I opened the cardboard box and inside there is a big blue plastic bag.  The Stretch-Out product is almost like ice cream when scooping it out. It is also grainy.

It's mostly salt and shortening, right?

CL
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2011, 02:20:44 PM »
Peter,

I was going to do weight-to-volume conversion, but when I saw the Stretch-Out product wasn’t a powder substance, I didn’t know how to go about the weight-to-volume conversion, because I thought if I put the Stretch-Out into a 1/4 cup measuring cup, how would I know each time if I had weighed it right on my scale, because I would have had to compact it with a spoon or something in the 1/4 cup measuring cup.  Would that have been an okay way to measure it?  I wasn’t sure, since it wasn’t a powder substance.

Norma

The best way is probably water immersion. Put 1 3/4 cup of water in a 2 cup measuring cup and then put in enough Strech-out to raise the water line (with the Strech-out pushed under the surface) to 2 cups. You will then have exactly 1/4 cup of Strech-out. Measuring out 1 cup of Stech-out the same way and then diving by 4 will minimize measurement error.

CL
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2011, 02:31:30 PM »
I guess they don’t want to tell the ingredients by percentage so someone could exactly figure out how to make the Stretch-Out products.

Can you estimate the salt and shortening content from the nutritional information? It looks like they are the only meaningful sources of sodium and fat.

CL
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2011, 11:51:26 PM »
Norma,

Following up on Reply 21 in which I discussed how to treat the Stretch-Out product, I did a search of the PMQ Think Tank archives to see if Tom Lehmann ever posted on how to handle shortening when used as part of a dough formulation, that is, whether it can be added directly to the flour or after the dough has been mixed for a while. As you can see from Tom's PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38155&hilit=#p38163, the answer turns on whether the shortening is in liquid or solid form. If it is liquid, then it should go in after the initial mix, much like oil, whereas if the shortening is solid, as is the case with the Stretch-Out product, it can be added to the flour. This suggest that you could perhaps combine all of your ingredients in a "goody bag" form if you wish. This would be consistent with the way that the Bisquick mixes are made. It is also consistent with the Caravan instructions for using the Stretch-Out product to make a pizza dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the post from Tom Lehmann about whether it matters if shortening can be added to the flour directly.  That sounds good that the Stretch-Out product can be added to a “goody bag”.  That would make everything easier when making a mix or “goody bag”.  I just wanted to post that the dough and final pizza went well today with the Stretch-Out product.  Steve and I were both amazed at how fast a dough can be made and used, when using the Stretch-Out product.  It only took 1 ˝ hrs. from the time the dough was mixed by hand, until we made the pizza with the Stretch-Out product.  The taste of the crust using the Stretch-Out product was very good.  I sure don’t know how that is possible, but it was.

I will post the pictures tomorrow.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2011, 12:07:22 AM »
Norma,

Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?

CL

Craig,

One time Tom Lehmann either told me in a PM or somewhere that I posted on PMQTT, that  L-Cysteine wasn’t made from hair.  He said it changed how L-Cysteine is made.  I think I posted somewhere here on the forum what Tom Lehmann told me, if my memory serves me right.  I will look tomorrow and see if I can find the post.

Can you estimate the salt and shortening content from the nutritional information? It looks like they are the only meaningful sources of sodium and fat.

CL

At Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg138841.html#msg138841 is where I posted what ingredients are in the Stretch-Out product.  I didn't get any nutritional information with the Stretch-Out product.

The best way is probably water immersion. Put 1 3/4 cup of water in a 2 cup measuring cup and then put in enough Strech-out to raise the water line (with the Strech-out pushed under the surface) to 2 cups. You will then have exactly 1/4 cup of Strech-out. Measuring out 1 cup of Stech-out the same way and then diving by 4 will minimize measurement error.

CL

Thanks for telling me how you would go about measuring the Stretch-Out product for minimal error.  :) It was easy to measure the Stretch-Out today.

Norma




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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2011, 09:01:43 AM »
Norma,

Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?

CL

Craig,

This is the post at PMQTT that Tom Lehmann answered me about L-Cysteine. http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=63356#p63060

Norma


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2011, 09:35:50 AM »
Craig,

This is the post at PMQTT that Tom Lehmann answered me about L-Cysteine. http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=63356#p63060

Norma

I was just poking fun as you had commented previously about it coming from hair. I'm not sure "synthetically" is the right word as it is producued via mutant E. Coli - not a chemical reaction which is what I would associate with "synthetic." Not that it makes any difference. Chemically, it wouldn't be any different than if it was produced from hair. They didn't change the method because somebody thought hair was gross. Using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.

CL
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2011, 09:52:13 AM »
I was just poking fun as you had commented previously about it coming from hair. I'm not sure "synthetically" is the right word as it is producued via mutant E. Coli - not a chemical reaction which is what I would associate with "synthetic." Not that it makes any difference. Chemically, it wouldn't be any different than if it was produced from hair. They didn't change the method because somebody thought hair was gross. Using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.

CL

Craig,

Thanks for giving me more information about L-Cysteine.  I know using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.  You can poke fun at me anything.  :-D I don't mind.  I am always interested in learning something new and I had originally though L-Cysteine was gross.  I would use it in experiments though.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2011, 09:55:18 AM »
The Lehmann dough using the Stretch-Out product was an interesting experiment for Steve and me.  I cut the Stretch-Out product into the flour (with a fork) and used hot water to hand mix the dough with a spatula.  Steve suggested to let the dough sit for about 10 minutes, to fully hydrated the flour and other ingredients, and then it was mixed with a rubber spatula again, balled, then covered with olive oil. The dough ball looked like a normal dough ball.  Since I didn’t have another bigger plastic container, along at market, we decided to use a red container I had at market. We couldn’t watch how the dough was fermenting on the sides or bottom of the container, but felt the dough and looked at it, and decided to use it in less than 1 ˝ hrs. after it was mixed.  

The dough using the Stretch-Out product was easy to open, with no stretch back in the dough.  It looked like normal dough.  After the bake, Steve and I were both surprised how moist the crumb was of this pizza.  It was light and also tasty. The Stretch-Out pizza even had oven spring.  That is quite a feat for such a short time mix and fermentation.  Steve and I talked about how easy the dough was to mix and also how it was possible to get such a good tasting pie, in such a short while.

I gave Steve some of the Stretch-Out product to take to his home to try.

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 10:02:01 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2011, 09:57:44 AM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2011, 10:00:03 AM »
end of pictures

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2011, 10:28:48 AM »
Norma,

It looks like a successful outcome. Did you detect any issues with the salt, either the crust being too bland or too salty?

I suspect that the large amount of yeast (0.883% IDY), together with the hot water, were mostly responsible for the rise in the dough and the oven spring. Using about 0.80% IDY and hot water are common for many emergency type doughs. The gluten cellular structure of such doughs is frequently not strong because the carbon dioxide production is so high and occurs so fast that the dough expands like a balloon, but a weak one that is prone to collapse if held too long. Since the pizzas are baked very quickly, before the dough can collapse or recede, you can end up with good oven spring.

I believe that what the Stretch-Out product does is to provide fat (partially hydrogenated oils), sugar (dextrose) and salt without having to add these to a basic dough recipe, and providing the L-cysteine to insure that the dough doesn't become "bucky". The ascorbic acid might help provide an acidic environment for the yeast, and the mono- and diglycerides help emulsify the fats.

There are a couple of things you might want to try in future experiments. One would be to try using high-gluten flour, as you usually do with your Lehmann doughs. The second would be to use normal water temperature, not hot water. Using hot water in a dough iself helps overcome a bucky dough condition. It would be interesting to see if the L-cysteine makes using hot water unnecessary. Maybe Edna can tell you if such is the case.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 10:30:39 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2011, 12:24:18 PM »
Norma,

It looks like a successful outcome. Did you detect any issues with the salt, either the crust being too bland or too salty?

I suspect that the large amount of yeast (0.883% IDY), together with the hot water, were mostly responsible for the rise in the dough and the oven spring. Using about 0.80% IDY and hot water are common for many emergency type doughs. The gluten cellular structure of such doughs is frequently not strong because the carbon dioxide production is so high and occurs so fast that the dough expands like a balloon, but a weak one that is prone to collapse if held too long. Since the pizzas are baked very quickly, before the dough can collapse or recede, you can end up with good oven spring.

I believe that what the Stretch-Out product does is to provide fat (partially hydrogenated oils), sugar (dextrose) and salt without having to add these to a basic dough recipe, and providing the L-cysteine to insure that the dough doesn't become "bucky". The ascorbic acid might help provide an acidic environment for the yeast, and the mono- and diglycerides help emulsify the fats.

There are a couple of things you might want to try in future experiments. One would be to try using high-gluten flour, as you usually do with your Lehmann doughs. The second would be to use normal water temperature, not hot water. Using hot water in a dough iself helps overcome a bucky dough condition. It would be interesting to see if the L-cysteine makes using hot water unnecessary. Maybe Edna can tell you if such is the case.

Peter

Peter,

Using the Stretch-Out in the Lehmann dough was successful, at least in Steve and my opinions.  The salt was just about right in Steve’s and my opinion, too.  Steve mentioned that this was his favorite pizza of the experimental pies we made yesterday.  Although I enjoyed this pie and thought it tasted good, even in the crust, it wasn’t my favorite experimental pie of the day.  Poor Steve, I told him to taste a little piece of the Stretch-Out and he also had the same opinion as I had when tasting the raw Stretch-Out.  He said he is never going to listen to me again and try something that he doesn’t know about.  :-D  He also commented how salty the Stretch-Out product was even though he only had a tiny piece. 

I had wondered why you had suggested the 0.883% IDY for the yeast amount.  Now I think I understand why you picked that value.  I wonder what amount Edna would suggest.  Your understanding of everything that has to do with pizza making has already helped in this first experiment. 

Thanks for explaining about what the ingredients in the Stretch-Out do in a dough.  I find those explanations interesting. 

I am going to email Edna my results in this first experiment with pictures so she can see how this experiment worked out.  I will ask Edna if hot water is necessary to add to the mix.

In my next experiment do you think the first thing I should do is try high-gluten flour to see what happens?

Thanks for your assessment of this experiment.  :)

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2011, 12:28:02 PM »
Norma,

Exciting results.

What % by weight of flour was the Stretch-out?

C:
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