Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough

[norma427]

The EL-7 product did work as intended.  The dough ball was easy to open and before I knew it, I had stretched the skin to 18".  The pie also baked well.

The only problem was Steve and I both thought this pie tasted just like all other pies that can be normally purchased at most pizza businesses.  There wasn’t much flavor in the crust.  Maybe we are getting to be too picky about the kind of pies we like.   I thought the salt taste in the crust was too strong, but Steve didn’t.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Actually, I think your EL-7 test was a good one. It showed that you can take a high-gluten flour and use a relatively low hydration to make the dough out of it (around 57%) and the EL-7 product will soften the dough to the point of allowing ease of opening. However, in your case, the EL-7 product may be a solution in search of a problem. By that, I mean that unless you have a problem opening up dough balls because of excessive elasticity, there really isn't a need to use a product like the EL-7. In your case, you allow a long enough period of fermentation with your Lehmann doughs to make using a product like the EL-7 unnecessary. But, if you had a bucky dough for some reason, the EL-7 product might be a useful conditioner.

The EL-7 product could even be used with your preferment Lehmann dough, or any other dough that uses a preferment or a natural leavening system, and where the acid production is high enough to cause a strengthening of the dough to the point where it is hard to open up the dough balls. Such an application would not be an "artisan" one, but the EL-7 product should solve or mitigate the problem. But, the benefits that come from using the EL-7 come at an added cost. In your case, with the free sample of the EL-7 product that you got from Caravan, I estimate that at 1.42 grams of EL-7 per 16" pizza using the formulation I posted, you can make 15,971 pizzas before you have to cough up the money for more EL-7. So, you may want to be careful as not to spill any of the EL-7 when measuring it out.  

With respect to the salt issue, that is an easy one to deal with. If you feel that the finished product is too salty, or your customers complain along the same lines, all you have to do is reduce the formula salt.

I do think that you and Steve--and your customers and food tasters as well--have been spoiled by the high quality pizzas you have been making and selling at market. As you know, there is really nothing wrong with the basic Lehmann dough. But, if you want to kick it up a notch flavor-wise, you have to do the sorts of things you have been doing with the Lehmann formulation, such as using a preferment, natural leavening systems or long fermentation periods. If you tried to serve your customers the basic Lehmann pizza after teasing them with your improved versions, I think that they might start picketing your stand.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Actually, I think your EL-7 test was a good one. It showed that you can take a high-gluten flour and use a relatively low hydration to make the dough out of it (around 57%) and the EL-7 product will soften the dough to the point of allowing ease of opening. However, in your case, the EL-7 product may be a solution in search of a problem. By that, I mean that unless you have a problem opening up dough balls because of excessive elasticity, there really isn't a need to use a product like the EL-7. In your case, you allow a long enough period of fermentation with your Lehmann doughs to make using a product like the EL-7 unnecessary. But, if you had a bucky dough for some reason, the EL-7 product might be a useful conditioner.

The EL-7 product could even be used with your preferment Lehmann dough, or any other dough that uses a preferment or a natural leavening system, and where the acid production is high enough to cause a strengthening of the dough to the point where it is hard to open up the dough balls. Such an application would not be an "artisan" one, but the EL-7 product should solve or mitigate the problem. But, the benefits that come from using the EL-7 come at an added cost. In your case, with the free sample of the EL-7 product that you got from Caravan, I estimate that at 1.42 grams of EL-7 per 16" pizza using the formulation I posted, you can make 15,971 pizzas before you have to cough up the money for more EL-7. So, you may want to be careful as not to spill any of the EL-7 when measuring it out.  

With respect to the salt issue, that is an easy one to deal with. If you feel that the finished product is too salty, or your customers complain along the same lines, all you have to do is reduce the formula salt.

I do think that you and Steve--and your customers and food tasters as well--have been spoiled by the high quality pizzas you have been making and selling at market. As you know, there is really nothing wrong with the basic Lehmann dough. But, if you want to kick it up a notch flavor-wise, you have to do the sorts of things you have been doing with the Lehmann formulation, such as using a preferment, natural leavening systems or long fermentation periods. If you tried to serve your customers the basic Lehmann pizza after teasing them with your improved versions, I think that they might start picketing your stand.

Peter

Peter,

I also thought the EL-7 product did produce a good dough, that browned and generally was good, but as you mentioned the final product is about like a one day fermented dough.  As I posted , the dough did stretch out really well, and I think I could have stretch that dough very thin, if I wanted to.

Talking about “Bucky” dough, I don’t know why, and I was going to post this on my preferment Lehman thread, but a few times in the last two months, my preferment Lehman dough were very “Bucky”.  Yesterday was one of those days.  Both Steve and I noticed how "Bucky" the dough was yesterday. About 2 weeks ago, the same thing, and also when I was trying a higher hydration with an extra reball.  No matter what we did the dough balls didn’t want to stretch right.  This has made me curious about what could cause that.  I don’t know if next weeks dough will be “Bucky” or not.  The dough kept wanting to stretch back, but finally we got them opened.  When you have to keep making pie after pie, that can be bothersome.  Last week the dough was fine.

I had wondered what I am going to do with all the EL-7 product Edna sent me, but might try it on a preferment Lehman dough ball to see what happens.  Do you think that would be a good next test for the EL-7 product?  Thanks for doing the calculations to see how many pizzas I would need to make to use all the EL-7 product.  That is a lot of pizzas.  

At some future date, I would like to try some kind of really low hydration dough something like a cracker crust that needs to be rolled out to see what happens, in combination with the EL-7.  Do you think the EL-7 would be a good test for some of those doughs?

I also don’t think customers, taste testers, or potential customers would think my pizzas would be as good, if I didn’t used other methods like I am trying.

On another note, a man came to my pizza stand with another man yesterday.  I overheard him telling the other man, that my pizzas are good.  I thanked him and he said he had saw me on Slice.  When I asked him how he had seen me on Slice, he said he had recommended a pizza business for me to try in our area and had saw all the pizzas I had on MPM. He is also a member of Slice. He told me he is the head baker at Miller's Smorgasbord on the other side of Lancaster and he also experiments with many kinds of pies.  I was introduced to the other man, that was with him and he is the executive chef at Miller's Smorgasbord.  It is nice to get other professionals opinions on the pies I make.  I told the man that I had some experiments for the day and showed him them.  I told him about using the EL-7 product from Caravan and he said the bakery at Miller’s does use many products from Caravan and Caravan products are very good.  Steve and I enjoyed talking to both men.      

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I had specifically mentioned the preferment Lehmann dough in the context of the EL-7 product because I thought that I recalled that you had mentioned having problems opening the preferment Lehmann dough from time to time and, as I recall, it was not limited to a warm weather environment that could have the effect of speeding everything up, even when using your refrigerated case. I definitely would try the EL-7 with a preferment Lehmann dough ball. I would add the EL-7 as part of the final mix.

If I had to guess, I would say that perhaps the Lehmann preferment has been producing too much acid. One of the effects of acids produced during prefermentation, and perhaps even thereafter, is to strengthen the dough. If there is too much acid production, it is common for the final dough to be on the bucky side. The acidity tightens up the protein and creates a gluten matrix with higher elasticity. There are perhaps several ways of dealing with this problem from the preferment creation/management standpoint but that is not something I think you would want to do as a regular part of your work where the operating environment can change daily and often dramatically. One possibility is to use an autolyse or equivalent rest period during the final mix. Another possibility might be to add a pinch of salt to the preferment. I mentioned this before after reading about that possibility from the writings of Didier Rosada and Professor Calvel. Also, just recently I watched a video in which a baker making a bread dough using a poolish suggested adding a pinch of salt to the poolish in warm weather. The effect of the salt is to slow down the prefermentation process. In theory, that should result in lower acid production. If those measures don't prove effective, or sufficiently effective, then I would certainly consider trying out the EL-7 product.

I also think that the EL-7 product should work well with a cracker style dough. Likewise for a dough that is to be used with a dough press or roller/sheeter.

I also thought that it might be a good idea to test the EL-7 product with a much lower hydration. I remember, for example, trying out an "Old Faithful" dough that Big Dave Ostrander came up with and used in his pizzeria for many years before he became an industry consultant. The hydration was around 50%. I recall that some members who tried out the dough said that the dough was too stiff. I think the EL-7 product would be worth trying with such a low hydration dough. I opted for 57% hydration in the formulation I gave you just to find a convenient starting point for any experiments you might attempt using the EL-7 product. I didn't want the hydration to be too high and I didn't want it to be too low.

With respect to the pizza that you made with the EL-7, I liked the crust coloration. I am not as big on char/leoparding as many of our members and, in that respect, I thought that your pizza had nice crust coloration, especially on the bottom.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

If I try one preferment Lehmann dough ball this coming week with the EL-7 product should I used the same amount of the EL-7 product by percent in the final dough as I did in this experiment.  I mean should I calculate the percent to be used by the flour in the final dough and not use the preferment amount of flour at all?

I have been trying for a long while to figure out what makes the preferment Lehmann dough work or not work in many ways.  That is one reason I starting taking the pH readings of the preferment and the final dough.  I was thinking somehow I could figure out why sometimes the dough is easy to open and other times it is harder to open.  That always had me stumped, because it has happened in colder or warmer weather.  I had told Steve yesterday I can’t figure out why sometimes the preferment Lehmann dough is harder to open, when I always have the final dough temperatures in about a couple of degrees.  The dough is always cold fermented for the same length of time, and even though out the whole day at market the dough balls don’t change on how they open.  I have also started taking pH readings to see if that also might help me learn about crust coloration. Your guess is probably right that the preferment is producing too much acid.  I knew one of the acids produced during prefermentation is to strengthen the dough.  I didn’t know that the acidity could tighten the protein and create a gluten matrix with higher elasticity.  I just wonder if I lower the preferment proofing time in my Hatco Unit if that will fix the problem.  If that doesn’t fix the problem I could try a small amount of salt added to the preferment.  Which way do you think I should try first? 

I would be interested in trying the EL-7 product with an "Old Faithful" dough for next week.  Since I like to taste pizzas from new doughs, that would also be an interesting experiment for me.  I will look where the "Old Faithful" dough is posted on the forum.  50% hydration is low.

Thanks for saying you liked the crust coloration in the pizza I made using the EL-7 product.  The EL-7 did work well in browning the crust to a golden brown, in the rim and bottom crust. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

To keep things simple and not have to re-do all of the numbers, I would use the EL-7 at the same rate (0.375%) as a percentage of the total formula flour (which will be different than for your last experiment) and add it as part of the final mix. The preferment (poolish) does not need the EL-7; the final mix dough is what benefits from it. The added weight from the EL-7 product is not going to materially affect the total dough weight.

You can read about the protein tightening effect in the fourth paragraph under Advantages in the second Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

It is possible to reduce the prefermentation time in your Hatco unit, or even its temperature. I wasn't sure if that was an option. I was trying not to change anything that you were doing. You might try shortening the prefermentation time and/or temperature before trying the salt method.

The Big Dave Old Faithful recipe is discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976/topicseen.html#msg5976. There apparently were several versions of that recipe but the one you want to use for an EL-7 experiment is the one with 51% hydration or maybe the one with 51.6% hydration (at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605).

Peter

[TXCraig1]

Norma,

In my experience, the two things that have affected the extensibility of my dough the most - each way more than the pH - are they type of flour and the amount I work the dough - particularly the amount I work the dough prior to forming the balls.

Assuming you are using the same flour, is your mixing, kneading, and handling the same from time-to-time? or vice-versa?

With respect to adding salt to your preferment, when I was experimenting with my reverse engineering UPN project, I did a lot of experiments with salt in the preferment. I found that I needed a very small amount (0.1%) to control the enzyme activity (else the final dough was way too weak), however, above this level, I did not like the effect it had on either the smell or the flavor of the preferment (Ischia). You might find this interesting if you have not seen it already: EDIT - I see Pete just posted the Didier Rosada link I was going to give you, but I was thinking you might be interested in the part of the same article discussing salt in the preferment - discussed in the 5th-7th paragraphs under "Secondary effects of the preferment." FYI - After you click on the link Pete gave you, if it does not go straight to the article, click on "impatient" at the bottom of the screen, and the article will pop right up.

CL

[norma427]

Norma,

To keep things simple and not have to re-do all of the numbers, I would use the EL-7 at the same rate (0.375%) as a percentage of the total formula flour (which will be different than for your last experiment) and add it as part of the final mix. The preferment (poolish) does not need the EL-7; the final mix dough is what benefits from it. The added weight from the EL-7 product is not going to materially affect the total dough weight.

You can read about the protein tightening effect in the fourth paragraph under Advantages in the second Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

It is possible to reduce the prefermentation time in your Hatco unit, or even its temperature. I wasn't sure if that was an option. I was trying not to change anything that you were doing. You might try shortening the prefermentation time and/or temperature before trying the salt method.

The Big Dave Old Faithful recipe is discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976/topicseen.html#msg5976. There apparently were several versions of that recipe but the one you want to use for an EL-7 experiment is the one with 51% hydration or maybe the one with 51.6% hydration (at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605).

Peter

Peter,

I don’t know what happened to my computer, but I had typed a reply and then somehow everything was erased and then I couldn’t even get back on the forum. I could get everywhere else on the internet, but not the forum.  That was really weird. I had to work on my computer for awhile to get everything straightened out. 

I will use the EL-7 at the same rate as a percentage of the total formula flour and add it as part of the final mix for one test dough ball on the preferment Lehman dough.

Thank you for the link to the Dider Rosada article about protein tightening effects.

I can reduce the temperature on my Hatco Unit and also decrease the amount of time the preferment stays in the Hatco Unit.  I did have the temperature of the Hatco Unit lower before, but had upped the temperature to 120 degrees F so the preferment would bubble faster.  Maybe that is where I went wrong.  I did raise the temperature awhile ago.  I was also thinking back to when I first started making the preferment Lehmann dough and I didn’t have the problems of the dough balls opening then.  Maybe the increase in temperature did have something to do with something in the dough balls, but I am not sure.  I will also decrease the time the preferment stays in the Hatco Unit.  I have seen even if I let the preferment just bubble a little, it will ferment enough until Monday.  On Monday, when I posted the picture of the preferment it did look to me like it wasn’t as bubbly, which I noted in the preferment Lehmann dough thread.

I will look at the links you have provided tomorrow for the Big Dave Old Faithful recipes.  When I went to click on those links that is when somehow my computer failed. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

In my experience, the two things that have affected the extensibility of my dough the most - each way more than the pH - are they type of flour and the amount I work the dough - particularly the amount I work the dough prior to forming the balls.

Assuming you are using the same flour, is your mixing, kneading, and handling the same from time-to-time? or vice-versa?

With respect to adding salt to your preferment, when I was experimenting with my reverse engineering UPN project, I did a lot of experiments with salt in the preferment. I found that I needed a very small amount (0.1%) to control the enzyme activity (else the final dough was way too weak), however, above this level, I did not like the effect it had on either the smell or the flavor of the preferment (Ischia). You might find this interesting if you have not seen it already: EDIT - I see Pete just posted the Didier Rosada link I was going to give you, but I was thinking you might be interested in the part of the same article discussing salt in the preferment - discussed in the 5th-7th paragraphs under "Secondary effects of the preferment." FYI - After you click on the link Pete gave you, if it does not go straight to the article, click on "impatient" at the bottom of the screen, and the article will pop right up.

CL

Craig,

Thank you for telling me of your experiences about the two things that have affected the extensibility of your dough the most.  My flour, mixing time and handling are all almost the same every week.  I have been timing my mix for a little while.  The only thing I can think that I have done different is let the preferment ferment for longer at higher temperatures.  I did try a higher hydration and one extra  reball for awhile, but that also gave me extensibility issues, so I stopped that. 

If lowering my temperature in the Hatco Unit and decreasing the time the preferment stays in the Hatco Unit doesn’t straightened out the issues with the extensibility with the dough balls sometimes, I will try 0.1% salt in my preferment.  Thanks for also doing the experiments and directing me to the link.

I appreciate that someone that has more experience than I do with dough, tries to help me.  That is one reason this forum is great!

Norma

[TXCraig1]

I appreciate that someone that has more experience than I do with dough, tries to help me.  That is one reason this forum is great!

Don't sell yourself short. I learn a great deal by following you as well.

CL

[Pete-zza]

+1

Peter

[norma427]

+1

Peter

Don't sell yourself short. I learn a great deal by following you as well.

CL

Craig and Peter,

You guys are too kind! I have learned so much for both of you guys, plus also from many other members posts.  Thanks so much to everyone! 

Norma

[norma427]

I mixed a Big Dave Ostrander “Old Faithful” dough recipe with EL-7 later yesterday.  I wanted to see if the longer ferment time (until Tuesday) would give the crust a better flavor.  The “Old Faithful” was mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer with the flat beater first, then switched to the C-hook.  The dough was given two rest periods of about 15 minutes and then the vegetable oil was added.  The dough came together nicely.  I then let the dough rest another 15 minutes to loosen up the gluten before I formed a dough ball.  I used KASL in the mix.  This is the formula I used and pictures of the dough ball last evening and today.  The final dough temperature was 80.7 degrees F.

Norma

[norma427]

Pictures

Norma

[norma427]

I had posted at Reply 866 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg144433.html#msg144433 that I had made enough preferment (poolish) to make 5 dough balls to test out using EL-7, but after thinking about it, I really didn’t let that preferment ferment longer or at higher temperatures to see how that would make my doughs perform, so I made another preferment yesterday for just one dough ball, and left it ferment in my home oven with the light on.  It did look like it fermented more than the preferment made on Friday for the test dough balls.  I don’t know if I am going to use the preferment (for 5 dough balls) in combination with the EL-7 to do the experiment, or just use the preferment I made yesterday at home to do the experiment with the EL-7 and mixed the final dough at home to take to market on Monday.  I am not sure which way is the better way to go about this experiment.

Picture of preferment made at home.

Norma

[norma427]

This is how Big Dave’s “Old Faithful” dough ball looks this morning.  It has transformed into a soft dough ball, but has fermented a lot. I guess the EL-7 made it so soft.  When I mixed the dough and then made it into a dough ball it was a lot drier.  Hopefully it will last until tomorrow.

Also the preferment for the Lehmann dough has fallen some, since yesterday.  I know at market my larger batch of preferment doesn’t fall like this one did for one dough ball, so I don’t know how consistent my results will be when I try to compare the one dough ball with the EL-7  to others I have tried, when making larger batches of preferment.

pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

When I arrived at market today the Big Dave’s “Old Faithful” dough ball was fermenting more than I would have liked it to.  It had reached the top of the plastic container it was in, and had some big bubbles on the top of the dough ball.  I don’t know why it has fermented so much, when only 0.27 IDY was used in the formula along with EL-7.  I didn’t take a picture of the preferment Lehmann dough ball made with EL-7 this morning, but it looked fine when I arrived at market today, but it looked like it also was fermenting a little faster than it should.

Picture of “Old Faithfull” dough ball at market.

Norma

[TXCraig1]

Maybe it didn't ferment faster than expected but rather the weaker dough just looks like it is fermenting faster because it has less strength to hold back the expanding gas?

CL