Author Topic: Tonight's pizza, pics  (Read 3419 times)

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Offline pyegal

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Tonight's pizza, pics
« on: May 19, 2005, 07:21:27 PM »
Tonight I made more of the Lehman dough with starter, a pinch of IDY, and a long room temperature rise. The crust was good, but not as good as my first try with this dough. For some reason I didn't get the char on the bottom that I usually get, but this time I did get some voids in my crust edges. I followed the advice of another poster and did not handle the edges of the skin hardly at all - it made a difference!

This pie is topped with concentrated crushed tomatoes with a little sugar added and Penzey's pizza seasoning, slivers of pepperoni, cubes of mozz, and a sprinkle of fresh chopped basil from containers I have growing on the sunny side of the house.

<img src="http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL93/969683/3470095/97240211.jpg">

How about them voids?

<img src="http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL93/969683/3470095/97240237.jpg">


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2005, 10:03:31 PM »
Teresa,

Can you tell me how long the room-temperature fermentation was, and what the room temperature actually was? And did you use warm or cool water? And how much preferment did you use in relation to the amount of flour? All of these factors can influence the outcome of the dough at the time you are ready to use it.

Peter

Offline DKM

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2005, 10:41:02 PM »
To be honest I'm not wild about the color, but I love the voids.

DKM

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Offline pyegal

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2005, 06:28:08 AM »
Me neither, DKM - don't know why it didn't color up some.

Pete-zza, the room fermentation was about 8 hours, then reformed into a ball, then another 1 1/2 hours. I used warmer water (closer to 100) as the starter was straight out of the frig. This was a change from the first time I used this recipe. That time I had the starter at room temp, fed it, let it ferment, then measured out 1 1/2 TB of the starter. This time around I took the starter from the frig, stirred it well, and poured out 2 TB to add to 1 5/8 cup flour. I did need the extra 5 t. of flour for this pizza and used it in the kneading process of 2 minutes on #2 speed.

The dough was very puffy and light and handled well. It just didn't brown at all when baking for 6 minutes at 500 degrees. If I had gone much long in the bake time, the cheese would have started to brown to much.

pyegal

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2005, 06:56:09 AM »
pyegal,
I have noticed, with my home pizza making efforts, that counter risen doughs and/or same day doughs (whether refrigerated or not) are noticeably paler in color than a refrigerated dough which has been fermented for at least 48 hours or better. I have no idea why but it has been a consistent result over these past few months.
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Offline DKM

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2005, 10:40:06 AM »
The lack of color could be either lack of high heat or maybe the dough had started to fall.

I use the broiler when NY style pizzas.

DKM
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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2005, 12:17:34 PM »
Teresa,

All of the comments and questions of our fellow members collectively reflect my own thinking on why your dough didn't brown up more.

Fro my experience, a dough may not brown up sufficiently for mainly three reasons. The first is that the dough is an immature same-day dough that has not been allowed to ferment long enough--typically only a couple of hours or so.  The second is that the dough has overfermented to the point where all or most of the natural sugar in the flour has been used up by the yeast and there is too little left to caramelize and provide good coloration. The third is insufficient oven temperature or other baking-related problems, such as those mentioned by Cheesy.

If the problem wasn't oven related, then it is quite possible that your dough overfermented or was close to overfermenting. I think the amount of preferment (starter) you used (I estimate about 13-15% by weight of flour if your starter is like mine) was OK, even in a somewhat dormant state, but when you used warm water to compensate for the cool starter, you may well have accelerated the rate of fermentation of the dough such that, along with a total of 9 1/2 hours of room temperature fermentation, you pushed the dough past its optimum fermentation period. I asked you about your room temperature because if it was higher than normal (as is now occurring where I am in Texas), then that would also accelerate the rate of fermentation.

When I experience a slowed rate of browning, I do as Cheesy and DKM recommend and use the broiler element and try not to open and close the oven door too much since each opening of the oven door can lower the oven temperature quite a bit (the stone will still be hot, however). In your case, it sounds like the bake temperature was OK (since you noted your concern that the cheese would overcook), so I think you may want to try the broiler approach when you next experience insufficient browning. You might also want to try reducing the total fermentation time and/or use cooler water and less starter.

FYI, Teresa, I have been experimenting with a same-day, Lehmann NY style dough that I think will interest you. It uses a natural preferment and a room-temperature rise, a high hydration level (around 63%), can be made starting in the morning (e.g., before leaving for work) and finished about 9-10 hours later (e.g., upon return from work) and requires no handling of the dough whatsoever during the entire time of fermentation, requires no autolyse or other form of rest period, and yields an open and airy crust and a crust flavor that is equal to or better than a 24-hour retarded (refrigerated) Lehmann dough. Everything is lined up up the night before, including readying the starter the night before so that it is ready to roll the next morning. I haven't reported on the results of the experiment thus far, even though I think I succeeded in meeting every objective, since I want to fine tune the recipe and technique before posting it (at the Lehmann thread). However, I did take a photo of a couple of slices, and have presented the photo below.

Peter


Offline scott r

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2005, 01:27:16 PM »
oh yah, this is going to be good. I can't wait.  One question peter.

I like to make my dough in larger batches since the electrolux is a big machine.  My room temp rise doughs have been really flavorful and have better texture than my fridge doughs,  but I have had trouble with them overfermenting before I use them.  Do you think I will get the same benefits letting them go say, 3/4 of the way at room temp, then putting them in the fridge for use over the next few days?

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2005, 03:04:37 PM »
scott,

I'm no expert on preferments but instinctively something tells me that what you propose to do may not make things better and may even make them worse. Putting the dough in the refrigerator may slow down the action of the yeast, but the bacteria and other components of a naturally leavened dough will continue to product the acids and everything else that give the crust its sourdough flavor. I don't know the rate of formation of the flavor-contributing components but over a period of days I would think that they would be substantial.

If you are making multiple batches of dough at one time to make more efficient use of your Electrolux machine, but you don't plan to use all of the dough at one time, you may want to put the doughs you don't plan to use anytime soon in the refrigerator as soon as the dough comes off of the hook (or whatever the gismo is on your machine), and use only the dough you plan to use soon. That might prolong the useful lives of the refrigerated doughs.

Another approach might be to use less preferment to begin with, for the entire batch, use whatever dough you want to use near term and put the rest in the refrigerator. For the dough to be used near term, you might adjust the length of the fermentation period. In your case, you might even find that your present regimen is satisfactory inasmuch as you have indicated that you are experiencing problems with overfermentation. The only ways I know to ward off overfermentation in a room-temperature naturally-leavened dough where you have little or no control over the room temperature is to use less preferment, use cooler water, and look for signs that the dough has sufficiently fermented/risen. In my most recent experiment, alluded to in my last post on this thread, the dough did absolutely nothing for the first 5 hours. But shortly thereafter, the dough (which I had put in a bowl), started to expand, albeit very slowly, over the next 4 or 5 hours. When it expanded by about 25-50% (as best I could tell), I figured that that was good enough. Next time I make the dough, I may use a transparent or translucent container (straight-sided), mark the starting level of the dough, and watch the dough's progress over time to better note its behavior and stop the process when I think the dough is approaching the finish line. Unfortunately, no one rings the bell when that time comes. The answers come with experience, which includes occasional failures.

Peter

Offline pyegal

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2005, 03:56:52 PM »
To answer your questions:

~ the stone was heated for over one hour at 500

~ this is a gas oven, not self-cleaning, so no way to increase the temp

~ the broiler is a separate door underneath the oven door, I tried putting one pizza on top of the
   broiler pan to brown it and it nearly went up in flames in a matter of seconds! yikes!

~ the tiles are on the lower oven rack as low as it will go

~ I get the pizza on the stone as quickly as I can w/o losing it or ending up with an "accordion" pie

~ I did not open the door at all while the pie was baking

~ the room temp when rising was about 72-75

I think Mr. Pete-zza wins the prize: I think the dough was overfermented. When I opened the bag after an 8 hr. rise, I had one of those big, gross bubbles that appeared in another photo somewhere here. Also, I used 2 TB starter instead of the 1 1/2TB previously and I used 1/4 t. yeast instead of a pinch - sometimes I get lazy/in a hurry/absentminded or all three at once.

In my  first use of this dough, I was able to come home at lunch and reform the dough into a ball, then put it back in the plastic bag to rise some more. Yesterday I couldn't get home during lunch, so it had a real long undisturbed rise, resulting in the big bubble.

But hey! didn't I have gorgeous voids this time? 

I await with bated pepperoni breath your new formulation for a long room temp rise, Pete-zza!

pyegal


Offline pyegal

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2005, 07:35:27 PM »
Cheesy, I'm wondering if I can cook the pie right on the floor of the oven w/o a stone or tiles?

Has anyone done this? Does it make a mess? Will I be harming my oven?
Anyone with some real experience to relate?

Offline DKM

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2005, 12:49:37 AM »
To answer your questions:

~ the stone was heated for over one hour at 500

~ this is a gas oven, not self-cleaning, so no way to increase the temp

~ the broiler is a separate door underneath the oven door, I tried putting one pizza on top of the
   broiler pan to brown it and it nearly went up in flames in a matter of seconds! yikes!

~ the tiles are on the lower oven rack as low as it will go

~ I get the pizza on the stone as quickly as I can w/o losing it or ending up with an "accordion" pie

~ I did not open the door at all while the pie was baking

~ the room temp when rising was about 72-75

I think Mr. Pete-zza wins the prize: I think the dough was overfermented. When I opened the bag after an 8 hr. rise, I had one of those big, gross bubbles that appeared in another photo somewhere here. Also, I used 2 TB starter instead of the 1 1/2TB previously and I used 1/4 t. yeast instead of a pinch - sometimes I get lazy/in a hurry/absentminded or all three at once.

In my  first use of this dough, I was able to come home at lunch and reform the dough into a ball, then put it back in the plastic bag to rise some more. Yesterday I couldn't get home during lunch, so it had a real long undisturbed rise, resulting in the big bubble.

But hey! didn't I have gorgeous voids this time? 

I await with bated pepperoni breath your new formulation for a long room temp rise, Pete-zza!

pyegal

Then I don't think it was the heat, I think the dough started to fall.

I noticed you said it was not as good, what just the color or was the taste a bit off?

DKM
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Offline pyegal

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2005, 08:26:12 AM »
DKM,
This latest pizza didn't have the snap of crispness on the bottom of the crust that was enjoyed on the first pie I made using this recipe. And there was no char on the crust. I usually have some slight charring
using my baking methods. It might not be as much char as others here who cook at higher temps, but
it is some char nevertheless.

The next pizza making exercise will follow the recipe more exactly to see if I can duplicate the delicious crust of my first attempt. And, I've moved the oven rack down to its lowest level, so we'll see what if any effect that has. The next variation is to cook the pie on the oven floor, with or without the tiles laid down. I'm wondering if laying the tiles down will cause a problem for the oven floor. I want really good pizza, but I don't want to damage my oven.

pyegal

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2005, 09:25:48 AM »
Teresa,

Cheesy raises an interesting point about hydration that I have been meaning to investigate but haven't yet gotten around to doing.

The basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe as posted In the recipe bank at PMQ calls for a hydration range of 58-65%. The dough from that recipe can be baked in a hearth type oven like a Baker's Pride or Blodgett, which usually runs somewhere between 500-550 degrees F, or a conveyor, which typically runs between 425-435 degrees F (depending on the number of toppings, runs through the conveyor, etc.). Since our home ovens run at similar temperatures, and even though they differ from commercial baking equipment, I assume that it should be possible to use high hydration levels at home with acceptable results.

However, if you would like to test out Cheesy's thesis that a lower hydration percent may be better for your purposes, I am sure I can modify whatever Lehmann recipe you have been using to tell you how much water to use in relation to the amount of flour. However, since you use volume measurements rather than weights, I am not sure that you could tell the difference when using volumes. You could, of course, just use a bit less water than called for in the recipe--just enough to hold the dough together yet not be dry. I have made the Lehmann doughs with hydration levels throughout the entire range specified in the basic Lehmann dough recipe and felt that the higher hydration levels produced the most open and airy crusts. But your oven is much different than mine (an electric), so maybe you have to make modifications to the recipe, including hydration level, to get the best results for your particular situation.

Peter

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Re: Tonight's pizza, pics
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2005, 10:13:28 PM »
Teresa,

I made what I deem to be a major step forward tonight to producing a high-quality same-day, room-temperature, naturally fermented Lehmann NY style dough, and have posted the recipe and details at Reply #167 at the Lehmann thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.160.html.

Peter