Help dough balls flattening in fridge

[pedwid]

Ive read tons of topics on here and see that this forum is simply great at helping people with pizza problems. Well Ive got one that i really need help with. I use a basic recipe and when i store the dough balls in the fridge they deflate and end up laying flat. I cant figure it out. My recipe for each three dough balls is 460g flour, 10g instant yeast, 10g of salt, 310g of water, and 4g of olive oil. The dough has always tasted great but im having trouble with storing. I mix for about 10 minutes and then let it rise for an hour. After that I cut it into three equal parts of 280g and forms my dough balls. I let those rise for 15 minutes and then fridge them. I am obviously doing something wrong, please someone help me.   

[PizzaHog]

Hi pedwid
You did not specify how long you proof your dough balls in the fridge but one thing that stands out to me is the amount of yeast you are using, which looks to be over 2%.   For a generic/general formula that will spend 1-3 days in the fridge, something around 0.2% of instant dry yeast is common which is ten times less than what you are using now.  So you might consider making this adjustment and see what happens from there.
Hog 

[pedwid]

Hi pedwid
You did not specify how long you proof your dough balls in the fridge but one thing that stands out to me is the amount of yeast you are using, which looks to be over 2%.   For a generic/general formula that will spend 1-3 days in the fridge, something around 0.2% of instant dry yeast is common which is ten times less than what you are using now.  So you might consider making this adjustment and see what happens from there.
Hog 

hog, after one day in the fridge they are already flat. Maybe its the excess yeast. THe stuff i use here in Brazil is made by fleischmanns and is called Fermento Biologico Instantaneo, which im guessing is Instant Dry Yeast. Ive emailed the company to make sure of that. The recipe Ive always used has traditionally had this much yeast in it. Maybe becasue of the small proportions. I will try to reduce the yeast tomorrow and ill let you know what happens.
THanks,

[Pete-zza]

pedwid,

To add to what Hog has said, if you are using 310 grams of water for 460 grams of flour, that represents a hydration of 310/460 = about 67.4%. With such a hydration value, it is quite common for the dough balls to slump during fermentation. It perhaps also doesn't help to let the dough rest for an hour, and again for another 15 minutes after balling, since that will cause the dough to ferment faster, and at warp speed using about 2.2% IDY. You didn't indicate what kind or style of pizza you are trying to make so it is difficult to give specific recommendations at this time. It would also help to know what kind of oven you are using and its operating temperature range.

Peter

[pedwid]

well guys, i made the adjustment by reducing the yeast to 5g and had a noticeable improvement. I did not however reduce the amount or water and therefore had just a bit or drooping in the fridge. tomorrow night I will be making a new batch where I will reduce the water by 40g in order to try and fix this problem for good.
as for the type o pizza I am making it shoudl have a dense crust a little crunchy on the outside but breadlike in the middle. As for the base of the pie I like a thin semi-crunchy kind of dough with enough resistance to eat holding. I hope to store the balls in the fridge for three days. I would like to know however Peter about the resting process, should I be getting the dough in fridge earlier? Thanks again for all help!!!

[Pete-zza]

pedwid,

I perhaps should have asked before, but can you tell me what kind of flour (all-purpose flour, bread flour, or whatever) you are using where you are in Brazil and its protein content if you know it? Also, can you tell me the size of pizza you are making and what kind of oven you are using, and how you are baking the pizzas (including oven temperature, on a pizza stone/screen/pan, oven rack position, bake time, etc.)?

Your current use of yeast comes to a bit over 1%. That is still high, even for an emergency type of dough that is intended to be made and used in a few hours, at room temperatrure. The high hydration (almost 67.5%) that you have been using (it is also possible that it is too high for the type of flour you are using) is causing the dough to ferment even faster than desired. That combination will often cause the dough balls to slump, even while in the refrigerator. Under this set of conditions, I would not let the dough balls sit at room temperature before going into the refrigerator. I would use cold water to make the dough and get the dough balls into the refrigerator as soon as possible. The alternative would be to lower the amount of yeast even more. The next step would be to consider lowering the hydration some more. I might have a better idea when you answer the questions I posed above.

Peter

[pedwid]

Peter,

down here they call the flour tipo1 which is an allpurpose flour. Its got 5g of protein and I will be making them in a deck oven. I dont know about the heat I will be using yet. Currently I make them at 270celcius and it takes about 8 minutes to get a pie out perfect. I would prefer to drop this speed, and ideally to use a conveyor oven, but in brazil a good conveyor oven is way overpriced. I am used to woring with conveyors and screens but still dont have much experience on the deck ovens. I wonder if I can use a screen on them?

Any help is always appreciated...

[Pete-zza]

pedwid,

I think I would drop the hydration down to around 60% and reduce the amount of IDY to around 0.375% for this time of year in Rio de Janeiro. Hopefully that will get your dough balls to three days. Once you assess your results, you can then consider whether to increase the hydration again from 60%. I think you may find that the pizzas bake faster than with the higher hydration you have been using since you won't be spending so much time trying to drive off the moisture in the dough to get a drier, crispier, properly browned crust. Even with the lower hydration, you may need to do some experimenting with bake temperature and time to find the proper combination for your particular deck oven.

Some pizza operators who have deck ovens do use pizza screens. Some start the pizzas on the screens and then remove them toward the end of the bake and let the pizzas finish baking directly on the deck. Some operators use this approach because it is easier to assemble the pizzas on the screens than using peels. It is also easier to train workers to use screens. The results may be somewhat different than baking the pizzas entirely on the deck so that is something you would have to consider based on what you want to do with your pizza operation and the market you will be serving.

Peter

[pedwid]

Peter,

Many thanks. I will def try this.

[chickenparm]

Pedwid,

Peter gave the best advice and I cannot say much more to advise.Yet, I want to show you my link to the pizzas I made using a screen.I also used a 60% water hydration for the dough.

I have a pizza stone but its only 15 inch in diameter.I bought larger screens to make 18 inch pizza with and placed them on top of the stone,sort of like a deck oven with screens used.It worked just fine.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13648.0.html

[pedwid]

guys I just wanted to let you all know that my shop will be up next month and I am succesfully using a small batch of dough with 1k flour, 580g water, 3g IDY, 8g salt, 6g sugar, and 14g Olive oil. The dough holds a perfect consistency, and flies trough the air with great poise. The portions are 270g per small dough, 36cm, and gives an amazing thin crust pizza. Thanks for all the help, jsut wanted to post what worked for me.

[chickenparm]

Sounds great! Would be nice to see some pictures sometimes.Don't be a stranger and let us know how it all continues to work out.
 

[pedwid]

ill try to get some pics up this weekend

[Pete-zza]

Pedro,

I wish you the very best with your pizza venture, amigo.

FYI, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to convert your dough formulation to baker's percent format, and got the following:

Flour (100%): Water (58%): IDY (0.30%): Salt (0.80%): Olive Oil (1.4%): Sugar (0.60%): Total (161.1%):

1000 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs 580 g  |  20.46 oz | 1.28 lbs 3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 8 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.43 tsp | 0.48 tbsp 14 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.11 tsp | 1.04 tbsp 6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp 1611 g | 56.83 oz | 3.55 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: No bowl residue compensation

For a single dough ball weighing 270 grams, the dough formulation looks like this:

Flour (100%): Water (58%): IDY (0.30%): Salt (0.80%): Olive Oil (1.4%): Sugar (0.60%): Total (161.1%):

167.6 g  |  5.91 oz | 0.37 lbs 97.21 g  |  3.43 oz | 0.21 lbs 0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp 1.34 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 2.35 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp 1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 270 g | 9.52 oz | 0.6 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: The 270-gram dough ball is for a single 36cm (approx. 14") pizza; the corresponding thickness factor is (270/28.35)/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.06187; no bowl residue compensation

Looking at the above numbers, one of the things you might want to consider is to increase the amount of salt. It is on the low side as pizzas go. I would double the amount of salt and see if that helps.

Out of curiosity, how many days are you using for cold fermentation purposes? And how are you baking the pizzas (e.g., type of oven) and at what temperature and for how long?

Peter