Author Topic: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?  (Read 4008 times)

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Offline pizzablogger

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Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« on: June 07, 2011, 07:00:15 AM »
Look at these two spec sheets:

http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/pizzeriatech.pdf

http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/rinforzatotech.pdf

The Rheologycal Properties of both flours are listed as being exactly the same.

The remainder of the spec sheets show other differences like 5.5% more Magnesium in the Rinforzato flour, but I was wondering if there is maybe an error on these two spec sheets or if they are in fact as similar as listed?

Thanks --K


"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell


Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2011, 07:23:37 AM »
Look at these two spec sheets:

http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/pizzeriatech.pdf

http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/rinforzatotech.pdf

The Rheologycal Properties of both flours are listed as being exactly the same.

The remainder of the spec sheets show other differences like 5.5% more Magnesium in the Rinforzato flour, but I was wondering if there is maybe an error on these two spec sheets or if they are in fact as similar as listed?

Thanks --K



Kelly,

I also would be interested in knowing about what you posted.  Matt posted in Reply 89 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14038.msg141609.html#msg141609 he did see a difference in the two flours.  A few posts down Matt did answer me why he preferred the Pizzeria flour.  Then Peter posted this at Reply 97 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14038.msg141643.html#msg141643 FoolishPoolish also post this link http://www.idreamofpizza.com/2011/03/pizza-adventures-in-italy-part-4-caputo.html

Fred told me the Caputo Rinforzato was a higher gluten flour.  He sells both flours at his business at http://www.fredsmusicandbbq.com/ 

Norma

Always working and looking for new information!

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2011, 10:57:14 AM »
I believe the differences lie in the types of protein/gluten found in each blend. They must have a larger percentage of north american flour in the RF, and more European flour in the PZ. Even though the protein count is similar, the quality of the protein is the most important factor when determining baking application and workflow. It highlights the major differences in the wheat varieties between Europe and the US.

John

foolishpoolish

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2011, 11:01:19 AM »
I believe the differences lie in the types of protein/gluten found in each blend. They must have a larger percentage of north american flour in the RF, and more European flour in the PZ. Even though the protein count is similar, the quality of the protein is the most important factor when determining baking application and workflow. It highlights the major differences in the wheat varieties between Europe and the US.

John

That may well be true but looking at the spec sheets provided in the above links, the P/L (alveograph), farinograph readings and W value are the SAME for both flours. (Not just protein percentage).
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 11:06:56 AM by foolishpoolish »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2011, 12:00:05 PM »
That may well be true but looking at the spec sheets provided in the above links, the P/L (alveograph), farinograph readings and W value are the SAME for both flours. (Not just protein percentage).


Yes T, that is why I am a little confused! (which is easy for me to become anyways...)
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2011, 12:47:40 PM »
"I learned what the difference was between the "red" and "blue" label flour. The blue pizzeria flour (which is what I use) is more delicate and is ground finer. The red is more coarse and is meant to be used if you plan to make a lot of dough for use over many days."

http://pizzicletta.blogspot.com/2010/10/my-visit-to-molino-caputo.html

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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 06:58:59 AM »
I forgot to mention that in Reply #38 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9301.html#msg9301) in the Caputo 00 Pizza with Caputo 00 Biga thread, pizzanapoletana (Marco) lists the technical characteristics of these two flours as follows:

Quote
00R Reinforced Red

protein 12-13%
Wet Gluten 34-36%
W 270-300
absorption 55-57%
falling number 340-360
p/l 0,5-0,6

00 pizzeria

protein 11,5-12,5
Wet Gluten 32-34
W 240-260
absorption 55-57
Falling number 340-360
p/l 0,5-0,6


That's certainly a noticeable difference than what the previously referenced tech sheets linked in my initial post indicate. Granted, that reply is now just over six years old. However, I would imagine Caputo would want to keep their products as consistent as possible, so it's probably unlikely the formula for these two flours has changed significantly since then.

Either the spec sheets from brickovenbaker, Marco or (potentially) both are incorrect with the technical specifications. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline foodimp

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 09:33:37 AM »
Guys,
There are some subtle differences as you all point out in the Pizzeria and Rinforzata flours imported to the USA.  They are made from very similar grains, infact the real difference lies in the properties of the specification which is differentiated via blending percentages.  The spec sheet for these two items referenced via brickovenbaker documents in this thread are correct.  Caputo did sligthly raise the protein content of the pizzeria flour many years ago for a variety of reasons, however, the real difference is noted in the Pizzicletta blog is the best explanation of the difference.  The Pizzeria flour is just a bit softer and just a bit more "sensitive" to touch than the rinforzata.  There are many in Naples who use the Rinforzata still, however, most because it is what their grandfathers used, prior to the pizzeria flour being developed.  We find that the vast majority use Pizzeria flour both in Naples and the USA.

Hope this is helpful in some way,
Fred Mortati
Orlando Food Sales

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 10:17:53 AM »
Mr. Mortati, thank you so much for taking the time to respond and help clarify matters. Just one more quick question:

Quote
There are some subtle differences as you all point out in the Pizzeria and Rinforzata flours imported to the USA

You pointed out, "imported to the USA". Is there a difference between the Pizzeria and/or Rinforzata flours specifically imported into the USA and the Pizzeria and/or Rinforzato flours sold to Italian or other markets?

Thank you very much!  :)
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 12:28:16 PM »
Guys,
They are made from very similar grains, infact the real difference lies in the properties of the specification which is differentiated via blending percentages.

This puts the alveograph numbers into perspective, which measures gluten strength and not protein quality (quality is key here). The RF is blended to withstand longer fermentation (probably with more US wheat varieties). Although there is a direct correlation in protein count and gluten strength, the alveograph test is only a preliminary indicator of gluten performance. The more and more I read, wheat type and quality trumps many other specifications.

That being said, from what Kelly and Toby have pointed out, and the clarification Fred has posted, they really do look like the same flour  ;)

John


Offline foodimp

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 05:18:29 PM »
First I am impressed with the level of sophistication which all of you contributors display, relative to the flour composition it's corresponding affect on the finsihed product.  I am sure I can learn a lot from all of you.  Every time I am in the lab at Caputo w Eugenio Caputo (the mad scientist behind this product) I learn quite a bit, including last week when i was there, however, my first expertise is on the commercial side more than the truly technical side. 
To answer the question about flours and my confusing statement, the flour imported to the USA is the same as that sold in italy and other markets.  The product performs slightly differently as many who have used both items point out.  Keep in mind that Caputo makes a variety of specific use flours, not withstanding some that share very close charateristics with subtle differences.  Some however, are vastly different, the 00 pasta fresca and gnocchi flour for example.  This item is unlike any other flour they produce due to it's method, not so much it's blend.
keep spreading the good word and thanks to you all for the supoprt and clarification you bring to the market.
Fred

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 05:40:38 PM »
Fred,
As long as you are ending  the confusion, am I to understand that the small 1 kg Red bag is the RF version, not merely the 25 kg Blue in a smaller package ?
Perry

Offline foodimp

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 09:31:37 AM »
Ah, the 1kg confusion still abounds.  This is my fault actually, because i am the one who convinced CAPUTO to redesign the retail package.  The 1kg CHEFS FLOUR RED PACKAGE contains 00 Pizzeria Flour (which as you know in foodservice packaging is in a blue bag).  There are 2 reasons that the 1kg package is red and also called "CHEFS FLOURS" instead of Pizzeria Flour.  1. the red packaging is nicer and stands out more on the shelf attracting more consumers at store level and 2. the terminology "Chefs Flour" enabels the consumer to understand that this flour is verstaile and good for many uses (which is true.  it is the most versatile of all caputo flour - great for pizza, but good for bread, fococcia, pasta, and some cakes).
Hope this helps,
Fred

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Caputo Pizzeria & Rinforzato Spec Sheets....Error?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2011, 10:56:20 AM »
I've been asked this from multiple people myself and for some reason a few of them don't believe me.

Fred, thanks for re-affirming the Chef's Flour in the red, 2.2lb bag and the Pizzeria flour in the blue, 55 pound sack are the same flours (you've confirmed this here in the past).
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell


 

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