Author Topic: Mea culpa, Caputo is it  (Read 2322 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« on: June 17, 2011, 01:19:22 AM »
OK, I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong.

Caputo is it! KAAP worked great in my grill for a long time, but I couldn't see the forest for the trees. Caputo is so easy to work with it has changed my life. I had no idea how good it could be. And damn if it doesn't taste great too. I'm just in awe how awesome this flour is. OK, Scott, you are right, but no gloating please!

CL
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 10:00:32 AM by TXCraig1 »
Pizza is not bread.


scott123

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2011, 01:33:19 AM »
I can't gloat, what fun is that?  :'(

All kidding aside, I really have no horse in this race. My anti-KA tirades have centered entirely on my heinous experience with KA 10 years ago and KABF's inherent inferiority as compared to bromated flours for NY style.  Because of the beautiful pies you were making with KAAP, I even backtracked a bit and put a caveat about KA being inappropriate for inexperienced bakers, and, that, with enough experience, one could do great things with it (as you were obviously doing).

Use any flour you want, Craig.  At this point, I don't think you can make a bad pie.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2011, 09:36:48 AM »
I keep seeing references to bromated flour. Bromated flour is fine for making pan breads, ain't nothin' that works much better, but when it comes to pizza, bromate is not a friend, unless you like having a dough that is tough and elastic, and likes to fight you as you try to form it into a pizza skin. That's what bromate (potassium bromate) does. Keep in mind that bromate is frowned upon in California (it is a carcinogen) and not allowed for use in Canada. As a result, most flour suppliers have their flours available either bromated or non-bromated. For example, General Mills has Rex Royal brand that has 12.4% protein and is unbleached and unbromated #57151 and also Washburns brand at the same protein level, unbleached, but bromated #59401. A potential for a locally produced flour similar to Caputo-00, might be General Mills Pollyanna (this is an untreated flour coming in at about 10.5% protein content. I've also had good success using General Mills King Wheat brand flour. If you can't get the G.M. brand in your area, just use these names and ask your flour supplier what he has an an equivalent.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2011, 09:49:35 AM »
Snip - I misread something above.

CL
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 11:22:57 AM by TXCraig1 »
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2011, 10:18:57 AM »
unless you like having a dough that is tough and elastic, and likes to fight you as you try to form it into a pizza skin.

Tom, I would have to respectfully disagree with you here.  If I use a high hydration ratio and not overdevelop the gluten, I can make a soft and tender crumb whether it is bread or pizza crust.  I can make a very similar soft textured crumb using AP, BF, HG, or bromoted HG flour.  It's all how you hydrate, develop the gluten, and ferment the dough.  I have used All Trumps and the Con Agra Mills bleached and bromated HG flour.

But in my experimentation, I have noticed that if I drop the hydration by just 5% when using HG bromated flours I can tell the difference in texture and it does toughen up a bit.

Chau
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 10:51:52 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline communist

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 10:45:43 AM »
Tom, Glad to see you on the forum.  I have had great success with bromated All Trumps for a thin ( thickness factor of .07 ) quick bake ( 4 minute ) New York Pie.  I use your 63% hydration formula with .3% IDY and 1.75% salt. My total knead time for 5 pounds of dough in my Kitchen Aid  is four minutes - 1 minute on speed 1, 1 minute on speed 2, add oil and complete mix for 2 more minutes.  Divide dough into 7 eleven ounce pieces, and hand knead into ball for 20 seconds per ball. 2 day cold ferment.  For skin formation, dough is elastic, but does not fight me, and my finished crust is not tough.  Perhaps that is because of my decreased knead time?  In any event, if I can get the same results without bromate, I will try another high protein flour without bromate, and report on results.  Mark

scott123

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 11:24:13 AM »
Tom, if bromate is 'not a friend' to pizza, then someone needs to inform the thousands of New York area pizzerias using bromated flour of this fact.  When I walk into wholesale pizza flour distributors, I can't even find unbromated HG flours- that's the level of market penetration it has, and it's been like this for decades.

In the New York area, bromate IS NY style pizza.

As I hope you're aware, bromate is a renowned volume enhancer.  For both home baker and pizzeria owner alike, great NY style pizza is about oven spring. Puffy, chewy (and for some, crispy). Bromate is a major player in that quest. Can great oven spring be achieved without it? Of course, but it makes it far easier. For the home baker whose oven spring may be challenged by poor thermodynamics or other factors, it's an invaluable aid. It won't guarantee great oven spring, but every little bit helps.

As far as creating 'tough and elastic' doughs, again, I'm going to have to point you to the thousands of New York pizzerias producing bromated doughs who have no issues whatsoever with elasticity or toughness. In all of my years working with bromated and unbromated flours, the biggest difference I've noticed isn't elasticity but extensibility.  And extensibility, to a point, is a good thing.

A national pizzeria chain who wishes to standardize their recipe will obviously need to source unbromated flour due to California's fearmongering labeling laws.  Nobody here (fortunately ;) ) owns a national chain.  For the home baker looking for a bump in spring or for an authentic NY slice, bromate is the answer.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 11:25:55 AM by scott123 »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2011, 04:42:07 PM »
You are RIGHT Craig!!

CAPUTO + WFO = best pizza EVER!!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline JConk007

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2011, 08:27:03 PM »
Yes Craig! You have seen the light!!  ;D I  just mixed up a 2250 grams of flour batch of -- You guessed it 90% Caputo and 10% KASL that I am just using up doing 62% liking that #.  8 hrs room 8 hr fridge. ball in am - 4hr fridge  then 4 hrs room
Spread em!
doing the Beligioso vs Polly fresh pack  mozz shoot out(not fiore d latte) Its really just a good excuse to make a lot of pizza  besides the fact  I have 15 adults and 6 kids stopping over saturday fun fun.
Keep posting the pies please!
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2011, 09:33:07 PM »
I have NO problem what so ever with Con Agra's oxident flour, which is also bromated. It has actually become my favorite flour.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 10:56:40 PM »
Craig, welcome to the club.

Granted, Caputo is not the ideal flour for all style applications, but it is an incredible flour.
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 11:20:35 PM »
A potential for a locally produced flour similar to Caputo-00, might be General Mills Pollyanna (this is an untreated flour coming in at about 10.5% protein content.

Tom, when you say "untreated"....aside from not being bleached or bromated, are you also referring to malting as well?

As you are aware, the Caputo flour is unmalted and relatively low in amylase activity.
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2011, 09:37:40 AM »
Kelly,

As you can see from the General Mills specs for the Polyanna flour at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Pollyanna%20Untreated56441.doc, the only ingredient is wheat flour--no bromates, no bleaching agents (other than through natural exposure to atmospheric oxygen), no vitamins, no iron, no ascorbic acid, and no malting. The protein content of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is 11.5-12.5% (see Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328/topicseen.html#msg25328) and it is no doubt milled more finely than the Polyanna.

Peter

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Mea culpa, Caputo is it
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2011, 01:00:01 PM »
Kelly,

As you can see from the General Mills specs for the Polyanna flour at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Pollyanna%20Untreated56441.doc, the only ingredient is wheat flour--no bromates, no bleaching agents (other than through natural exposure to atmospheric oxygen), no vitamins, no iron, no ascorbic acid, and no malting. The protein content of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is 11.5-12.5% (see Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328/topicseen.html#msg25328) and it is no doubt milled more finely than the Polyanna.

Peter

Thanks for the information and links Peter! --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell