Author Topic: 2 questions about pizza making that i've been wondering about for a long time  (Read 2143 times)

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Offline gunnar

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Hi everybody,

There are some questions about pizza making i've been wondering about for a long time.

1) When putting bacon on a pizza, pre-cook it or not ? (Pizza baked in a commercial pizza oven, 300c for about 3 minutes)
   - What i'm looking for here is if you put it raw on a pizza, does it cook ? and if yes, does it boil (in the cheese and bacon fat) or does it get "baked"


2) Is there any "science" to witch order to put toppings on ? Like always put pepperoni last on the pizza to get it crunchy ?

3) One bonus question :) Does anyone know about good culinary science website that has good info about pizza making ?
    - Here i'm looking for hard facts about pizza making


I'd love to have an expert comment on this , cause im not really looking for opinions, more hard facts... Like with the raw bacon, some people may like it, but does it boil or bake, it must do one or the other, but witch one :)


Offline Aimless Ryan

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3) One bonus question :) Does anyone know about good culinary science website that has good info about pizza making ?
    - Here i'm looking for hard facts about pizza making
This is the best web site you'll find about making pizza. Not even close. People here really know their stuff; celebrity chefs don't.

Offline c0mpl3x

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Hi everybody,

There are some questions about pizza making i've been wondering about for a long time.

1) When putting bacon on a pizza, pre-cook it or not ? (Pizza baked in a commercial pizza oven, 300c for about 3 minutes)
   - What i'm looking for here is if you put it raw on a pizza, does it cook ? and if yes, does it boil (in the cheese and bacon fat) or does it get "baked"


2) Is there any "science" to witch order to put toppings on ? Like always put pepperoni last on the pizza to get it crunchy ?

3) One bonus question :) Does anyone know about good culinary science website that has good info about pizza making ?
    - Here i'm looking for hard facts about pizza making


I'd love to have an expert comment on this , cause im not really looking for opinions, more hard facts... Like with the raw bacon, some people may like it, but does it boil or bake, it must do one or the other, but witch one :)

i've never seen raw bacon anywhere in a pizza shop, nor do i condone using raw pork on a pizza.

flat toppings first (flat cut veggies, pepperoni, ham, etc) and finish off with toppings that can be on top to 'cook' water out of (ie veggies) 

we have all the facts you need, and if not, can provide links at the least to them
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline tinroofrusted

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  • Experimenting....

1) When putting bacon on a pizza, pre-cook it or not ? (Pizza baked in a commercial pizza oven, 300c for about 3 minutes)
   - What i'm looking for here is if you put it raw on a pizza, does it cook ? and if yes, does it boil (in the cheese and bacon fat) or does it get "baked"


2) Is there any "science" to witch order to put toppings on ? Like always put pepperoni last on the pizza to get it crunchy ?

3) One bonus question :) Does anyone know about good culinary science website that has good info about pizza making ?
    - Here i'm looking for hard facts about pizza making


1.  You can put your bacon on without cooking it first. Bacon is cured to begin with, and it cooks up sufficiently on the pizza so that you should be OK.
2. I go with cheese on top. I believe they do it differently in Philadelphia.  It kind of comes down to your preference. 
3. Pizzamaking.com.  All the technical info is here. A bit hard to access but if you search you will find. 

Regards, 

Tin Roof

Offline gunnar

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Ok these answers are not what i'm looking for, i'm sorry..

I know bacon is cured , and sometimes smoked so it's not raw pork.. I'm not looking for if it's safe or not. I'm asking about when you put uncooked bacon on a pizza, when cooking, it releases fluids, bacon fat etc.. The fat combined with the cheese, does it boil the bacon in the fluids or does it bake..

.. "flat toppings first (flat cut veggies, pepperoni, ham, etc) and finish off with toppings that can be on top to 'cook' water out of (ie veggies)" <-- I'd never ever put pepperoni untill last on a pizza, i want pepperoni to be crunchy..

.. "we have all the facts you need, and if not, can provide links at the least to them"  <-- There hes not been a single fact stated yet, just "I go with" or "i've never seen" .. What im asking, is if there are any "hard facts of pizza making"..

Ok .. I'm talking about stuff like when searing a meat, there we have the Maillard reaction ( Proteins and sugars react together once the temperature is above about 140C to produce a wealth of new molecules ), here is a bit of science to cooking.. Here we have facts, this does happen whether you like it or not if your pan is over 140c ..


So i ask again , does anyone here have some facts about my questions, not opinions :)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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So i ask again , does anyone here have some facts about my questions, not opinions :)

You asked questions that can only be answered with opinions or preferences. The only way you can find the answers you seek is through trial and error. There are no single correct answers to any of the questions you asked. Just like science, there is not a book of truths that has just always existed. People had to figure it all out by paying attention and experimenting. And not everyone's truth is the same as everyone else's, so we can't give you the answer to your preferences.

Pizza-making truths are learned through experimentation. Try it.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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1) When putting bacon on a pizza, pre-cook it or not ?
If you bake a pizza with raw bacon as a topping, you'll almost certainly end up with a cooked pizza that still has raw bacon.

What i'm looking for here is if you put it raw on a pizza, does it cook ? and if yes, does it boil (in the cheese and bacon fat) or does it get "baked"
How hard would it be to just try it? Trying things is how you learn. If I tell you it doesn't work, but it really does work and you never try it, what have you learned?

Offline Pete-zza

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gunnar,

There are some pizza operators who choose to put the pepperoni under the cheese. Buddy's in the Metro Detroit area does that. See, for example, page two of its menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/BuddysMenu.pdf.

On the matter of hard facts on pizza making, over the years I have spent an enormous amount of time on the Internet trying to find hard information on pizza making and I don't believe that there is any place that has more hard facts on pizza making than this forum. However, there is a lot of information on the bread side that applies to pizza making also. You can go back several years and read E. J. Pyler's seminal work on baking (http://www.amazon.com/Baking-Science-Technology-J-Pyler/dp/0982023901/?tag=pizzamaking-20) and you can read Professor Raymond Calvel's The Taste of Bread (http://www.amazon.com/Taste-Bread-James-J-MacGuire/dp/0834216469/?tag=pizzamaking-20) or you can simply do a Google Books search where you will find all kinds of highly technical (and usually very expensive) books on the science of baking. Another useful resource is the writings of Didier Rosada on preferments, at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

On this forum, one useful area we have found on the science of baking is the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/TheArtisanMain.htm. At a more basic level, and mainly for the newer members of the forum, the forum has a Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html.

You might also do an Internet search for articles written by Tom Lehmann, an acknowledged pizza expert at the American Institute of Baking. He is one of the very few in the industry who writes regularly on the subject of pizza making, including the technical aspects of pizza making. You can also read his posts (including in the archives) at the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewforum.php?f=6. I have referenced most of Tom's articles on this forum. If you use the keywords "Lehmann article" (with quotes if you use the Google Custom search feature and without quotes if you use the Advanced search feature), you should be able to find links to most of his articles.

The above said, there is hardly a technical area of pizza making that has not been addressed or written about on this forum. And, in my opinion, they are not fluff pieces. If you use the Advanced search feature at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=search;advanced or the Google Custom search feature that is accessible at the bottom of the main index page of the forum, you should be able to find posts on pretty much anything, provided you are willing to spend the time scanning and reading the posts. As an example, if you use Maillard as a keyword search term in the Advanced search engine, you will get three pages of hits. If you use the Google Custom search engine, you will get two pages of hits. You might also do a search of posts that originated with Bakingbusiness.com. If you use that term as a keyword in the search engines, you should find several articles of a technical nature, many of which apply to pizza making as well as baking in general.

Peter

Offline cjweaver

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For gunnar who is looking for facts/science rather than opinion...

Your resource for the facts/science of cooking is   "On Food and Cooking"  by Harold McGee.

While I don't think you're ever going to find a scientific answer on the proper order of toppings - that would be a subjective interpretation - and how bacon/rendering fat may react with melting cheese,  you will find information on the individual elements: emulsions, cheese,  bread, gluten proteins, etc.    You're just going to have to dig through the different topics in this book and draw your own conclusions.

and btw -  curing is a method used to preserve foods,  not a substitute for cooking.   Gunnar - ask yourself the question,  if you put chopped up bacon in a 300 degree oven for 3 minutes, would it be cooked?

boil - to cook in a liquid that is bubbling rapidly
braise - to cook covered in a small amount of liquid
roast/bake - to cook by surrounding food with hot, dry air
not sure what your bacon mixed with melting cheese would be called :o

oops  - one last thing,  the maillard reaction occurs with the combination of high heat (230-250 degrees)  and dry cooking methods -it is not a function of a pan at 140 degrees
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 07:14:37 PM by cjweaver »

Offline TXCraig1

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From my perspective, your are severely underappreciating the importance of the art, and greatly oversimplifying the "facts" and science by disregareding too many variables. For example, It doesn't matter where I put the pepperoni, it's not getting crispy in 2 minutes.

CL
Pizza is not bread.


 

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