Author Topic: Getting pretty frustrated  (Read 8782 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2011, 07:19:10 AM »
Regina,

You are doing well in learning.  :) I have tried many kinds of flours both bromated and nonbromated from all purpose mixed with other flours,  bread flours to All Trumps, Pillsbury Balancer, Kyrol, (bromated), Caputo flours, and KASL.  They all can produce a decent pizza.  I donít believe you need any special flours to make pizza.  In my opinion it is all in the formula, mixing and watching how the dough ferments. 

I also have mixed just like your recent mix to where the dough was shaggy or rough looking, to where the dough is smooth.  Both ways can work.

Will be interested in seeing your pizza.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2011, 12:47:10 PM »
Regina,

You are doing well in learning.  :) I have tried many kinds of flours both bromated and nonbromated from all purpose mixed with other flours,  bread flours to All Trumps, Pillsbury Balancer, Kyrol, (bromated), Caputo flours, and KASL.  They all can produce a decent pizza.  I donít believe you need any special flours to make pizza.  In my opinion it is all in the formula, mixing and watching how the dough ferments. 

I also have mixed just like your recent mix to where the dough was shaggy or rough looking, to where the dough is smooth.  Both ways can work.

Will be interested in seeing your pizza.

Norma

Thanks Norma and I really appreciate your comments.  (also enjoyed your Slice interview).  I tend to get ahead of myself and want to try everything NOW!  I think I will have to make pizza every day to satisfy my curiosities but that might not sit well with hubby.    There is just something very comforting about making pizza.. :).  I checked my dough ball this morning The lid was still on and it looked nice and cozy with a bit of spread and rise.  I'm hoping I get my IR thermometer before tomorrow night.   
Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir

Offline norma427

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2011, 12:56:51 PM »
Thanks Norma and I really appreciate your comments.  (also enjoyed your Slice interview).  I tend to get ahead of myself and want to try everything NOW!  I think I will have to make pizza every day to satisfy my curiosities but that might not sit well with hubby.    There is just something very comforting about making pizza.. :).  I checked my dough ball this morning The lid was still on and it looked nice and cozy with a bit of spread and rise.  I'm hoping I get my IR thermometer before tomorrow night.   

Regina,

You sound just like me.  I also wanted to try everything after I basically learned how to make pizza.  I am still experimenting and have much to learn.  I still want to try everything at once, but find myself eating too much pizza. If you stay around the forum for awhile you will learn a lot, from members, moderators, and former posters.  Just watch your doughs and see how they behave, try different oven set-ups, flours, formulas, etc. and you will be surprised at what you will learn.  I was afraid of leaving the newbie thread at one time.  :-D

I agree with you that pizza making is comforting.  :)  Sounds like your dough is doing well.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2011, 01:46:41 PM »
Things went pretty well for last Friday nights bake.  Here is what I did.  Wednesday I mixed in my bread machine for a very short time as suggested.  I think it was about 3-4 minutes as I recall.  I should have made notes.  Wednesday was such a long time ago  ;)

I used KABF in my usual recipe using the 64% hydration, .085 thickness factor with intent to stretch to 15".  Pics are below of the dough after mixing, after the 2 day ferment, and then stretched and baked. 

On Friday I baked in my 1.5 hr 550 preheated oven on bottom rack on my stone.  I didn't get my IR thermometer yet so that will have to wait til this Friday.  I had a lapse of memory in the fact that my stone is 14.5" x 16.5" so my pie fell over the edge and got stretched a little wacky. 

I baked the pizza for less time than I typically do.  It was about 7 minutes.  The crust rose pretty well I thought and even had a bit of leoparding on the bottom.  Isn't that leoparding?  Overall the crust was ever so slightly thinner than we liked however it was really good.  I was pleased with the texture which was tender but crisp and airy. 

I think I will start cooking two pizzas as we still do not have leftovers and the pie was a little to big for my stone.  So it will be his and hers pizza night!  Hubby can have his Italian sausage and I can create my own specialty.  That will give me more practice too. 

Now my question is whether the dough should be kneaded coming out of the fridge before warming up on the counter.  The total kneadtime on this dough was just a few minutes.  Is that enough for the gluten development I read about so much on this site?  Does the long ferment make up for the minimal kneading?
Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir

Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #104 on: June 13, 2011, 01:48:27 PM »
Ooops.  Let me resize those pictures. :-[
Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir

buceriasdon

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2011, 01:56:49 PM »
Regina, No, don't handle the dough ball anymore than needed after taking it out of the fridge. You'll be back to fighting the dough ball if you reknead! The BM and time in the fridge have accomplished the needed gluten buildup. Good job, keep it up.
Don

Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2011, 02:23:21 PM »
I'll try this again.  Having problems with the pic sizes.

Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir

Offline Moondance

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Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir

Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #108 on: June 13, 2011, 02:34:13 PM »
Here is the bottom.  Having problems with pics this morning!
Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir

Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2011, 12:12:32 PM »
Regina, No, don't handle the dough ball anymore than needed after taking it out of the fridge. You'll be back to fighting the dough ball if you reknead! The BM and time in the fridge have accomplished the needed gluten buildup. Good job, keep it up.
Don

Thanks Don.  I have so much information on this thread now to keep me busy and experimenting for a long time.  I appreciate the input from you and others to get me to this point.  I think I will continue to improve and look forward to working with different baking surfaces and temps.  I did get my IR Thermometer today and I plan to buy a grill or pizza oven of some sort (looking at the 2Stone) so I can bake at higher temps outside during the summer. 

Hopefully I can post some extraordinary pies in the future.
Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir


Offline chickenparm

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #110 on: June 15, 2011, 01:58:19 AM »
Regina,
You are doing fantastic work with your new experiments and the pizzas you posted looked wonderful!
Its always going to be somewhat of a learning process,and you are going to continue to find ways to challenge yourself as well.Thats what makes it all good eh?
 :)

I was also glad to see your briefly mixed dough,then cold risen,gave you good results.I tried that method of brief mix/knead,then cold risen,but I ended up with a few doughs that did not stretch and shape as well as the doughs I allowed to fully knead at first.Its all trial and error.

Thats why I stuck with the method of letting the machine knead it all the way through,to ensure a dough thats going to stretch and shape with ease.My cold rises for me are ALSO to develop flavor.A one day dough and 3 day dough do not taste the same to me using KABF.The 3 day dough tastes so much better.

Now that you know how the dough mixes/kneads with your bread machine,brief or long,then turns out after cold rises for 2-3 days in the fridge,you will keep on making fantastic pies.
 :pizza:
-Bill

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #111 on: June 15, 2011, 03:24:49 PM »
Regina, did the dough fight you on the stretch this time?

Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #112 on: June 15, 2011, 05:57:11 PM »
Regina,
You are doing fantastic work with your new experiments and the pizzas you posted looked wonderful!
Its always going to be somewhat of a learning process,and you are going to continue to find ways to challenge yourself as well.Thats what makes it all good eh?
 :)

I was also glad to see your briefly mixed dough,then cold risen,gave you good results.I tried that method of brief mix/knead,then cold risen,but I ended up with a few doughs that did not stretch and shape as well as the doughs I allowed to fully knead at first.Its all trial and error.

Thats why I stuck with the method of letting the machine knead it all the way through,to ensure a dough thats going to stretch and shape with ease.My cold rises for me are ALSO to develop flavor.A one day dough and 3 day dough do not taste the same to me using KABF.The 3 day dough tastes so much better.

Now that you know how the dough mixes/kneads with your bread machine,brief or long,then turns out after cold rises for 2-3 days in the fridge,you will keep on making fantastic pies.
 :pizza:

Thanks Bill for the compliment.  I have a lot to learn but as you say "it's all good".  Thanks for talking about the length of time that you let the machine knead the dough.  I plan on experimenting further with different lengths of time.  I remember I did get at least one good result from letting the machine go through the entire knead cycle.

Regina, did the dough fight you on the stretch this time?

Scott,

I had no problem stretching the dough.  It just got a bit too thin.  Tonight I am going to mix for 2 pizzas in my bread machine but I am going to up the TF back to 0.1 and leave the hydration at 64% and go for two 14.5" pizzas so it will not fall off my stone again.  I'm going to stay with the KABF for this week since we both really liked last weeks pie.  Here is the recipe I just printed using the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculation Tool:

Flour  100%
Water  64%
IDY  0.3%
Salt 1.75%
Oil  2%
Sugar  1%


Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir

Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #113 on: June 15, 2011, 06:11:25 PM »
Regina!

Look at the first pie you posted in this thread and then look at the last one!  Then give your self a HUGE pat on the back!!!  :chef:

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #114 on: June 15, 2011, 07:40:53 PM »
When I dialed back my thickness factor to around .08,it was sometimes a little too thin in some spots as well.

Thats why I usually go with the .01 formula and then maybe stretch the dough a little past the size the recipe calls for.Another issue,its really my dough stretching skills at times.I sometimes let one side drop too far when shaping by hand and it can cause one area to be a bit thinner than the other areas,when trying to target a size at first.

I dont mean to but it can happen once in a while when putting the dough up and down to see if it is the right size,or needs a little more stretch.

I use a super peel,and I also took round 14 and 15 inch screens and with a permanent marker,traced the screens,into 2 circles on the cloth,so I know if the pie will fit or be too large for the stone.

Once I get a 18x22 stone or plate in the oven,I wont worry too much about the size being spot on like I do now with a small 15 inch round stone that has little to no room for error in placement.

Yet when I use a screen,not an issue at all.I don't want to use screens all the time either.I prefer the better cooked bottom a stone has to offer.
 :)


-Bill

Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #115 on: June 16, 2011, 10:21:22 PM »
Regina!

Look at the first pie you posted in this thread and then look at the last one!  Then give your self a HUGE pat on the back!!!  :chef:

Thanks Mick.Chicago :D


[/quote]
When I dialed back my thickness factor to around .08,it was sometimes a little too thin in some spots as well.

Thats why I usually go with the .01 formula and then maybe stretch the dough a little past the size the recipe calls for.Another issue,its really my dough stretching skills at times.I sometimes let one side drop too far when shaping by hand and it can cause one area to be a bit thinner than the other areas,when trying to target a size at first.

I dont mean to but it can happen once in a while when putting the dough up and down to see if it is the right size,or needs a little more stretch.

I use a super peel,and I also took round 14 and 15 inch screens and with a permanent marker,traced the screens,into 2 circles on the cloth,so I know if the pie will fit or be too large for the stone.

Once I get a 18x22 stone or plate in the oven,I wont worry too much about the size being spot on like I do now with a small 15 inch round stone that has little to no room for error in placement.

Yet when I use a screen,not an issue at all.I don't want to use screens all the time either.I prefer the better cooked bottom a stone has to offer.
 :)


I use a super peel as well.  I am considering getting a steel plate as scott suggested.  I probably will. 

I have a question.  After cold fermenting 2 days. what is the best length of time to warm on a counter before baking.  I usually go with about 1.5 hours.  But would longer be more beneficial?  Say 2-4 hours?  I don't always have that option because I usually take it out of fridge as soon as I get  home.  Then after outdoor chores and play (feeding horses/cats/dogs cleaning, etc.)  I am ready to bake.
Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #116 on: June 17, 2011, 02:49:47 AM »
To be honest,I really do not know if there is a counter rise time thats a norm.A warmer dough is more easy to work with than a cold one.I would imagine thats up to how your dough behaves cold then warmed up,say an hour to see how it behaves.

That said,With my doughs,I can use them within 15 minutes or so out of the fridge.I basically take them out and by 30 minutes or less,I'm using it to make pizza.I don't have problems with the dough shrinking back when cold.

Basically,as I let the oven warm up,when its HOT,I take the dough out of the fridge,get my sauce,cheese and toppings ready and go ahead and make pizzas.This does not take very long,anywhere from 15-30 minutes,depending on what I have going on.

I will admit,some of my dough that did not sit out very long,still cold,was a little harder to stretch,but it never fought back,and the more I shaped,the more it stretched to size.I believe this happens because I let the dough stay in the machine until done kneading,then I let it rise a bit before putting away for a cold rise for 2 days or so.

Let me back up though...if your dough ball is small,and has not risen much in the fridge,then you may need to let it warm rise longer and let it poof up some as you have been doing.

Most of my doughs dont last pass the 3rd day mark,they will be over risen and over fermented by then.I did compensate by cutting back the yeast somewhat,but I do know its mainly because I let the dough stay in the machine to rise after the cycle is done,before putting away in the fridge.

Sometimes the next day,I may get a dough with a bubble growing on it,and the dough looks ready to go...

I can sometimes pop the bubble with a toothpick and let it sit in the fridge one more day.Sometimes,not so much,it deflates and I have to toss it out.Its rare since I learned how to compensate for how much time I want it to cold rise.

Bottom line is,you will learn what your dough does,depending on how long you mix/knead and how long you cold rise.It took me some time to learn this and now I know exactly what its going to do after I make a dough.










-Bill

Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2011, 10:52:44 PM »
Friday night pizza was good, really good.  Two pies. Itailian Sausage/onion/sauteed muchrooms w/garlic/mozz. 2nd pie was spinich under the cheese/sauteed mushrooms w/garlic/ onion, mozz with shredded provolone.  I used my IR thermometer. The stone was reading 577 on the first pie.  The second pie I had to wait a bit for it to get back to 550.  I will post some pics on Monday.  We have leftovers!  I just wish I could sit at the table of some of the big dawgs on this forum to taste the difference.  None the less, hubby is very pleased.   :)  I even had some mozz stretch going on. 
Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #118 on: June 18, 2011, 01:30:31 AM »
I look forward to the pictures of the pies! They sound GREAT!
 :pizza:

-Bill

Offline Moondance

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Re: Getting pretty frustrated
« Reply #119 on: June 20, 2011, 04:16:38 PM »
Friday night pizza was good, really good.  Two pies. Itailian Sausage/onion/sauteed muchrooms w/garlic/mozz. 2nd pie was spinich under the cheese/sauteed mushrooms w/garlic/ onion, mozz with shredded provolone.  I used my IR thermometer. The stone was reading 577 on the first pie.  The second pie I had to wait a bit for it to get back to 550.  I will post some pics on Monday.  We have leftovers!  I just wish I could sit at the table of some of the big dawgs on this forum to taste the difference.  None the less, hubby is very pleased.   :)  I even had some mozz stretch going on. 

Here are some pics of last Friday's bake.  On Wednesday I mixed in my BM for 2 pies.  I let it mix for 5 min and took it out, divided and lightly balled the dough and into the fridge for 2 day ferment. 

Regina

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul."
John Muir