Getting pretty frustrated

[jever4321]

BTW Bill, Nice job on the window pane dough a few posts up! thats pretty impressive. 

[chickenparm]

Jay,
Thanks man! Im not into the window-paning club,but it was fun to do and show how the doughs can turn out.
 

[Moondance]

Thanks for the encouraging comments and I forgot to comment on Bill's amazing windowpane.  Wow!  My thing is I'm always wondering how to improve what I just did.  So I'm not at my perfect crust yet but feel like I'm getting more knowledge that I can control things better.  We'll see about that 

I will keep up with progress and open for any suggestions.  I am looking for something slightly more tender and airy but we love crunch as well.  I will try a screen/grill out of the oven but usually the pizza doesn't last long enough to notice.   I do like my new pizza stone alot so far.  I think It seems to get hotter than my old stone.  It is thicker.  Looking forward to Friday to see if I can improve.

 

[chickenparm]

I wanted to show you what can happen after 3+ days in the fridge with some doughs that risen too long in the machine,or the counter before being cold stored.

I forgot about this dough and its similar to the one I window paned with.I took the pics the same time as the window pane dough.The other pics came out blurry so I didn't post them.This one was clear enough.

It blew up too much and was caving in on itself when I tried to take it out.
 

[Jackie Tran]

I wanted to show you folks another picture or two of how nice the dough turns out at times from the machine and cold rises.In these pictures,this is a over risen dough I wasn't going to use,so I decided to have a little fun with it.
 

Bill, sorry I haven't chimed in about your dough.  It's really nice and smooth.  I would say about as nice as the dough Scott r posted that he made in his bosch machine.   Windowpane and cold fermenting dough doesn't necessarily produce terrible results.  It's generally not advocated by many on the board (inlcuding myself), but I have made decent pizza with dough that I windowpaned and cold fermented.  I even reballed it after it was CF for a short while and the results weren't bad.  A bit more chew than I normally go for but not terrible.   

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13728.0.html

Anyways, keep up the good work Bill. 

Chau

[scott123]

I will keep up with progress and open for any suggestions.  I am looking for something slightly more tender and airy but we love crunch as well.  I will try a screen/grill out of the oven but usually the pizza doesn't last long enough to notice.   I do like my new pizza stone alot so far.  I think It seems to get hotter than my old stone.  It is thicker.  Looking forward to Friday to see if I can improve.

Tenderness and airiness are directly proportional to bake time. If you can't break the 6 minute bake barrier, you can kiss tender and airy goodbye. Without a good stone, this is difficult to do. You basically started off with a really thin, almost worthless stone, and with the KA purchase, you improved your oven setup a bit, but not enough. I know the last thing you want to hear is that you bought a mediocre stone, but... you bought a mediocre stone.

The only way you're going to get sub 6 minute bakes with that KA stone is to trick the oven so that it goes higher than 550.  If you do a forum search for 'oven trick,' you'll see a few options, including cleaning cycle hacks and icing the thermostat. If you don't want to mess around with the oven, though, it's time to go stone shopping again. 1/2" steel plate is the reigning contender for puffy/air 4 minute NY style bakes at 550 degrees. A 16" x 16" plate should run you less than $25. For NY style, you want to get a square plate as large as your oven will fit.  The larger the better.

What flour are you using?  Short baking times are the critical component for airy and tender results, but the right flour helps a little also. If you're using KABF, you can bump up your volume a bit with a move to a real (bromated) pizzeria flour.

[chickenparm]

Thanks Chau!

Appreciate the nice words! I have never been a person of doing the window paning,but its great to see what the dough can be made to do.As I learn with time,advice and experience,its actually nice to see that this little machine can do for me as more expensive units have done for others.

Someday I may buy a machine that can mix a lot more dough,but for now,this little Oster does a great job for the amounts I make at a given time.I have also been very satisfied with using large screens for pies I don't have a stone sized for yet.I love getting results that are unexpected.
 

[Moondance]

Regina,

Just to point out again,my dough has come out the same with either water.Cool or room temp.I have never used very cold water,and maybe that might be a problem for some machines.

Here is what I do with the Oster Bread machine.

Add all the liquids first.

That means,I add the water and the oil I will be using into the machine mixing bucket,first.

In another bowl,I add the flour,salt,sugar and yeast,mix it well into the flour,then pour that flour mix into the bread machine bucket where the dough and oil is already in there.

Then I press the dough option button and let the machine knead and do its job.When its done kneading,I let the dough rise for 30 minutes before the light ball shaping and putting into the fridge.


The pics I posted are the results of the exact way I have done it.

Bill,

I think you have told me this but how long do you let your BM knead the dough and do you let it rise in the BM or on the counter?

[chickenparm]

I let the BM machine knead the dough until its done.Kneading takes 30 minutes.When the kneading is done,I let the dough rise inside the machine for 20-30 minutes before I take it out and ball it for the fridge.

My machine does have a 1 hour rise time if I want to let it sit for an hour,but I always take the dough out before 30 minutes.If I do not,it will get too big and will over ferment in the fridge by the 2nd day.Sometimes I take the dough out after 20 minutes of rise time,when it looks ready to come out.I check every 10 minutes to see how its rising.

[Moondance]

Had another successful pizza last night.  Two in a row is a record for me!  So definitely the water temp played a big role as well as not overcooking it by letting it sit on the stone too long.

This one stretched out to 14" and cooked in over 1 hour preheated oven at 550.  Cooked about 8 min and onto the SS Pan.  I dressed it with  Muir Glen Pizza sauce, half Itailian Sausage (for my husband), some chopped mushrooms, dried Oregano, some shredded Bel Giosso Provolone and cant remember the brand sliced Mozz.

My husband who adds more spices to EVERYTHING, said it was perfect and didn't add any extra spices!  That was a first.  He also said, ok now, don't change a thing, this is perfect!  It was quite good, but not perfect in my book.   

This dough was taken out of my bread machine after about 12 min knead and then straight into the fridge after balling.  I think I may try as Bill does and let the BM cycle longer because when I did that in the past the dough ball came out super smooth and perhaps that would make an even better crust?  Not sure.

[chickenparm]

Wow,that looks great! The dough and pie is perfect.Very nice job there!
 

If you want to try longer mix times and etc,by all means,go for it.I still try new experiments from time to time.Small changes though.Only way to learn and improve upon ourselves is to try different approaches.
 

[Moondance]

Tenderness and airiness are directly proportional to bake time. If you can't break the 6 minute bake barrier, you can kiss tender and airy goodbye. Without a good stone, this is difficult to do. You basically started off with a really thin, almost worthless stone, and with the KA purchase, you improved your oven setup a bit, but not enough. I know the last thing you want to hear is that you bought a mediocre stone, but... you bought a mediocre stone.

The only way you're going to get sub 6 minute bakes with that KA stone is to trick the oven so that it goes higher than 550.  If you do a forum search for 'oven trick,' you'll see a few options, including cleaning cycle hacks and icing the thermostat. If you don't want to mess around with the oven, though, it's time to go stone shopping again. 1/2" steel plate is the reigning contender for puffy/air 4 minute NY style bakes at 550 degrees. A 16" x 16" plate should run you less than $25. For NY style, you want to get a square plate as large as your oven will fit.  The larger the better.

What flour are you using?  Short baking times are the critical component for airy and tender results, but the right flour helps a little also. If you're using KABF, you can bump up your volume a bit with a move to a real (bromated) pizzeria flour.

Thank you for the suggestions!  I will do the forum search for oven trick because I am rarely satisfied and always looking to do a little better.  Do you have a web site link for that 1/2" steel plate.  That's one I have not heard of.  I am using KA BF but I do have Caputo flour in the pantry.  What flour would you recommend using?  I'm not familiar with all the different types of flour. 

[pdog]

Moondance......Pizza looks great!

My oven will only go up to 550,  but with some tinkering I can achieve 800+ on the stone in my 550 oven.

How does your oven heat?  Do you have gas, or electric?  Is the heat source on the top. bottom or both?

Caputo loves heat!  The more heat the better results you will achieve.... (850+) 

With less heat I would suggest you mix the Caputo with another high gluten flour.  If I am going to cook at 550-600 I mix 60 caputo with 40 KA bread flour.  Seems to work well. 

[Moondance]

Moondance......Pizza looks great!

My oven will only go up to 550,  but with some tinkering I can achieve 800+ on the stone in my 550 oven.

How does your oven heat?  Do you have gas, or electric?  Is the heat source on the top. bottom or both?

Caputo loves heat!  The more heat the better results you will achieve.... (850+) 

With less heat I would suggest you mix the Caputo with another high gluten flour.  If I am going to cook at 550-600 I mix 60 caputo with 40 KA bread flour.  Seems to work well. 

I have an electric oven.  Uh, not sure if the heat sourice on thetop or bottom or even how to determine that?  It is a new stove.  General Electric. I do have Caputo flour.  I am new to this so not sure how to determine what is high gluten flour either.  Do you think the Caputo is a better choice than King Arthur?  What king of tinkering do you do to get the higher temps?

[Jet_deck]

... Do you think the Caputo is a better choice than King Arthur?  ...

Moondance your last pizza looks excellent!  As a newbie (Me) may I suggest that you continue to cook your latest recipe a few dozen times before you change anything.  Caputo has strengths and weaknesses.  There is nothing magical about Caputo 00 flour. There is no need at this point for you to jump ship on flours.  KEEP DOING WHAT YOUR DOING.

Just my $.02

[scott123]

Thank you for the suggestions!  I will do the forum search for oven trick because I am rarely satisfied and always looking to do a little better.  Do you have a web site link for that 1/2" steel plate.  That's one I have not heard of.  I am using KA BF but I do have Caputo flour in the pantry.  What flour would you recommend using?  I'm not familiar with all the different types of flour. 

Here's a link for the kind of steel plate you want.  You'll want the 1/2" thickness.  It looks like the price of steel has gone up, because the online price is now $50 for 16 x 16 x .5.  It wasn't that price two months ago.  Anyway, from what I hear, local sources are both less expensive and don't have shipping costs- shipping costs that can easily tack on another $30. Just look for sheet metal in the yellow pages. The nice thing about steel is that it's used in construction just about everywhere and 'mild'/'hot rolled' steel is all the same and it's all suitable for baking. It's pretty much just like baking with cast iron, except, with the temps you're baking at, the steel doesn't need to be seasoned.

If you can't break the 6 minute bake barrier, you shouldn't be baking with Caputo. In my opinion, you really shouldn't be using Caputo above 3 minutes (some others feel differently). Caputo can work in 3-4 minute Neo-NY/Coal scenarios (usually blended with other flours), but Neapolitan sub 2 minute bakes are really where it shines. Since you list the favorite pizza in your profile as 'thin crust,' I'm not even certain that you'd be a big fan of the softer/puffier (and usually a bit wetter) Neapolitan style. Since you've mentioned a few times being happy with 'crispy' results, that would, in my opinion, definitely rule out Caputo, as it's suited towards less crispy styles.

'Thin crust' can be 'thin crust Chicago' (higher oil content, I believe), 'cracker thin crust', and NY style.  Even though you have ties to Chicago, I'm guessing, by the photos of the pizzas you're making, that you're striving for something along the lines of NY Style.  For NY style, you want, like I said earlier, real NY pizzeria flour. Not Caputo, not KABF.  Bromated brands include All Trumps, Bouncer, Sam's Club High Gluten Chef's flour, Balancer, Hummer, Kyrol, Spring King, Full Strength, King Midas Special. Restaurant Depot carries at least one of these brands, but it can be tricky to shop there because they'll only sell to people with business licenses.  Some locations will give you a one day pass.  Cash and Carry is another wholesaler with locations in Washington, although, from the FAQ, it looks there's a chance they sell to the public.

http://www.smartfoodservice.com/FAQs.aspx

I would give them a call and see if you can buy flour there. If not, your next best bet is probably Sam's Club.

As far as your oven goes, does it have a broiler in the main oven compartment? If so, then it's got two elements, a baking element below and broiling element above. If you look inside your oven as it's baking or broiling, you'll seeing the glowing red elements.

[Moondance]

Here's a link for the kind of steel plate you want.  You'll want the 1/2" thickness.  It looks like the price of steel has gone up, because the online price is now $50 for 16 x 16 x .5.  It wasn't that price two months ago.  Anyway, from what I hear, local sources are both less expensive and don't have shipping costs- shipping costs that can easily tack on another $30. Just look for sheet metal in the yellow pages. The nice thing about steel is that it's used in construction just about everywhere and 'mild'/'hot rolled' steel is all the same and it's all suitable for baking. It's pretty much just like baking with cast iron, except, with the temps you're baking at, the steel doesn't need to be seasoned.

If you can't break the 6 minute bake barrier, you shouldn't be baking with Caputo. In my opinion, you really shouldn't be using Caputo above 3 minutes (some others feel differently). Caputo can work in 3-4 minute Neo-NY/Coal scenarios (usually blended with other flours), but Neapolitan sub 2 minute bakes are really where it shines. Since you list the favorite pizza in your profile as 'thin crust,' I'm not even certain that you'd be a big fan of the softer/puffier (and usually a bit wetter) Neapolitan style. Since you've mentioned a few times being happy with 'crispy' results, that would, in my opinion, definitely rule out Caputo, as it's suited towards less crispy styles.

'Thin crust' can be 'thin crust Chicago' (higher oil content, I believe), 'cracker thin crust', and NY style.  Even though you have ties to Chicago, I'm guessing, by the photos of the pizzas you're making, that you're striving for something along the lines of NY Style.  For NY style, you want, like I said earlier, real NY pizzeria flour. Not Caputo, not KABF.  Bromated brands include All Trumps, Bouncer, Sam's Club High Gluten Chef's flour, Balancer, Hummer, Kyrol, Spring King, Full Strength, King Midas Special. Restaurant Depot carries at least one of these brands, but it can be tricky to shop there because they'll only sell to people with business licenses.  Some locations will give you a one day pass.  Cash and Carry is another wholesaler with locations in Washington, although, from the FAQ, it looks there's a chance they sell to the public.

http://www.smartfoodservice.com/FAQs.aspx

I would give them a call and see if you can buy flour there. If not, your next best bet is probably Sam's Club.

As far as your oven goes, does it have a broiler in the main oven compartment? If so, then it's got two elements, a baking element below and broiling element above. If you look inside your oven as it's baking or broiling, you'll seeing the glowing red elements.

Thanks for the indepth comments!  The link for the steel plate did not come through.  Could you try that again?  Yes steel prices have gone up.  We are in the business of steel buildings.  So I may be able to find a source but would like to take a look at that link. 

Yes my oven has the broiler on top.  I have been leaving my old stone on the top rack next to the broiler with my new stone on the bottom.  I wonder does the stone on top have any positive or negative effects. 

[scott123]

Here's the link for the steel plate:

http://www.onlinemetalstore.com/items/A36_Hot_Rolled_Steel_Plate.cfm

A lot of people put the stone on the bottom of the oven because it pre-heats faster and can get a little hotter because it's closer to the heat source, but that places the pizza far from the broiler.  Right now, you don't need the broiler for an 8 minute bake, but, as you move into more conductive stone materials and trim time off the bottom bake, you'll need some broiling to trim time off the top bake or the bottom will done and the top will be pale.

[Moondance]

Here's the link for the steel plate:

http://www.onlinemetalstore.com/items/A36_Hot_Rolled_Steel_Plate.cfm

A lot of people put the stone on the bottom of the oven because it pre-heats faster and can get a little hotter because it's closer to the heat source, but that places the pizza far from the broiler.  Right now, you don't need the broiler for an 8 minute bake, but, as you move into more conductive stone materials and trim time off the bottom bake, you'll need some broiling to trim time off the top bake or the bottom will done and the top will be pale.

Thanks Scott!

I found the thread on steel plate which was very informative.  I'm still on the fence as to try it or not.  It's more info for future use though.  I plan to experiment with the same recipe (or close) for a while and decide where to go when I am feeling more confident.  My dough for Friday (mixed on Wed)  I tweaked a bit only to make a bigger pie because my husband said there wasn't enough leftovers.  In the BM this week I left it to cycle for the first knead (12min) 15 min rest and I think about another 12 min knead, (results were a smoother silkier dough ball) then took it out, balled and fridge with loose cover for 1/2 hour and seal.  This evening when I came home to check on it, the lid was loose.  I don't know if I didn't seal it well enough or pressure forced it off.  So I hope that will have no ill effects.  I just want to thank you all for your help to date.  It's been really great.  I thought I could figure it out just by reading, but the personal interaction really makes the difference. 

[Moondance]

Ho hum.. another good pizza.  Just kidding.  Actually it was good but a bit well done and I did not even cook it quite as long.  I think it was under 8 min.  However, I mentioned earlier that when I checked on the dough ball the next day the lid was opened.  I think that did create a problem because the bottom of the dough ball was a bit too opened up and not as moist so I think it dried out too much and maybe I should have cooked it the next day instead of two days.

I should be getting my IR thermometer this week from Amazon.  I am curious what my stone reads.  That perhaps will help me determine what tweaks I can make in the  baking process.