Getting pretty frustrated

[Moondance]

I found this forum a couple months ago or so.  Although I have made what I consider great pizza crust a couple times, I cant seem to do it consistently.  I would prefer to use the bread machine, but willing to mix by hand.  I do not have a mixer.  I'm at an altitude of about 3000 ft and maybe that doesnt matter.  I've tried different yeast and do a cold ferment.  Usually do a Wed mix and Friday bake.  The dough doesnt seem to rise much.  The couple times it was great it had nice air bubbles throughout when gently pressed out for the bake.  I like a rather thin crust but airy and chewy.  I usually use KA bread flour or Caputo OO flour.  I've used a few different recipes from this site.  I think I need to start from scratch and hope to get some guidance here.  I use the usual flour, EVOO, tried a couple different yeasts, salt, sugar.  I only make pizza once a week and would love to get even one consistent recipe and technique.  Any help would be appreciated.

[Jackie Tran]

1) pick one recipe and stick with it till you are happy.   Do you want a traditional thin crust or just a thin crust NY style pizza?
2) just stick with IDY/ADY until you get consistent results.  Save the starters for later.
3) stick with BF.  Don't use caputo, AP, or low protein flours till you're happy with BF or HG flour pies.
4) stay with a same day dough for now.  Work on getting the texture right first.  Save cold fermentation for later.
5) use your bread machine.  Pay attention to dough condition when it comes out of the bread machine.  Contact member Chickenparm for advice on using your bread machine if you need help.  Save hand kneading for later.
6) Practice often and post up pictures and details of your bakes.  It's hard to help unless members have details and pictures.
7) Do you have a digital scale? Are you weighing out ingredients?
8 ) what pizza stone do you have? How long are you baking for?

This is where I would start if I was starting out.

Good luck,
Chau

[Moondance]

Insert Quote
1) pick one recipe and stick with it till you are happy.   Do you want a traditional thin crust or just a thin crust NY style pizza?
2) just stick with IDY/ADY until you get consistent results.  Save the starters for later.
3) stick with BF.  Don't use caputo, AP, or low protein flours till you're happy.
4) stay with a same day dough for now.  Work on getting the texture right first.  Save cold fermentation for later.
5) use your bread machine.  Pay attention to dough condition when it comes out of the bread machine.  Contact member Chickenparm for advice on using your bread machine if you need help.  Save hand kneading for later.
6) Practice often and post up pictures and details of your bakes.  It's hard to help unless members have details and pictures.
7) Do you have a digital scale? Are you weighing out ingredients?
8 ) what pizza stone do you have? How long are you baking for?

I agree with the one recipe.  I don't really know the dif betwenen thin and NY style. 
Ok, I will stick with KA BF, same day?  I would prefer to mix ahead of time just becaue of my busy schedule but I can try same day.  Just thought that was not that was not the best choice. 
I have a digital scale.

I have a pizza stone b ought from BB&B but have one ordered from the King Arthur site whichcomes this week.  I bake at 550 for usually about 10 minutes.  I have talked with chicken parm and he has been helpful but still I cant seem to get it rightl

[hammettjr]

What type of bread machine do you have?

Here's two of Peter's posts regarding bread machines. I found them both helpful.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113

Matt

[chickenparm]

We are all here to help! Btw,Thanks for thinking of me Chau...will do my best to help anyone with what I learned so far.

Regina,I agree with Chau,try and stick with one type of flour for now.He is right because once I got the idea/technique down,I have then been mixing different flours and water hydrations % along with different yeast amounts for new experiments and have been very happy with the outcome.I'm also at the point where I know exactly what the dough is going to do and behave coming out from my bread machine.With new experiments,I do watch the dough and see if its going to need a little more water or flour at times.

In a sense,my machine taught me quite a bit the last few months what to expect with different mixes of water,yeast,flour and etc.Now I know what I need to do to get consistency every time.I do tend to stick to a very similar lehmanns recipe,since it helps to reproduce the same thing each time.

Its kinda strange though,I'm having trouble keeping my dough DOWN,since it rises so damn good even in the fridge with a small amount of yeast!

I had to pop a bubble or two at times because as my dough rose in size,by the second day,I would sometimes get one annoying bubble poking through the top.

A tooth pick took care of that and I would let the dough sit another day unless I used it.I also never tight ball or reball the doughs from the machines.Thats another experiment.When the dough comes out,I carefully ball it ever so gently into a round size with a little bit of bench flour so it doesnt stick to my hands,and put into a oil sprayed bowl.Then I spray some oil on top of the dough and put the cover on the bowl.Then it goes into the fridge for 1-3 days.

I will show you some new pics of how they turn out at times.
 

[chickenparm]

Here are a few pics of the doughs risen in the bowls after 2 days in the fridge.
Yes,thats a toothpick hole I made to pop the dough bubble down in the dough in the blue bowl.
That is also the yeast I have been using. The yeast amounts were less than a 1/4 of a tsp for a 17 inch doughball.

[Jackie Tran]

Regina, I'm still learning all the time and will definitely help you nail down a simple goto recipe if I can.   Of course I speak from my experiences alone and have been known to be wrong, so just keep that in mind.   Your experience may differ so you have the choice to pick and choose what you want to apply.   I hope that others will chime in with their experiences and get you on the right path.  

The fustration you are experiencing following too many recipes is a common one.  If you are following the instructions carefully, you are likely making their favorite pizza and not yours, so it's important to know what type of pizza you want, find a recipe that closely approximates that and start from there.  

Is there a recipe that you've tried that comes close to your ideal pizza?  

I'm not real familiar with a traditional thin and crispy either but from the sounds of it, it is a lower hydration (drier) dough than a thinned out NY dough.  With the NY dough, you should get a softer interior than a trraditional cracker crust thin and crispy.  

No doubt there are lots of folks who would argue with me about same day versus cold fermentation, but from my experience I had a much harder time making a good CF pizza as a beginner.   Same day doughs don't have to be a 2 hour emergency dough.  It can be a dough that ferments from 2 hours all the way to 24 and you're still in the same day.   You can simply adjust your yeast levels to match your desired fermentation times.   As an example, I will often times mix a dough the night before at say 8-10pm when the kids are asleep and bake it up the next day for dinner around 5pm.   To me, that's a same day dough as it is less than 24hours.  

So with a little experimentation you should be able to tailor a dough to match your schedule.   Of course, if you want to start with cold fermented doughs, that's okay as well.  There's no harm in that, you just have to make a few adjustments to how much gluten is developed.  Take a look at Chickenparms threads and pies.  They are beautiful examples of a NY slice pie and he works with a bread machine and cold ferments.   Best advice is to pick out a member who's pies you admire and go with their advice.  I'm sure Bill will not lead you astray.  

So the stone situation sounds under control.  IMO, 10 minutes is too long to bake a pizza.  Ideally you should shoot for a 4-6min bake in the home oven if making a NY style pie.  Longer than that and you may have problems with the cheese browning too much or burning.  Again, I'm not a NY pizza expert.  We have plenty of them here and hopefully they'll step in.  Of course thicker pies and deep dish require much longer bake times but that's not what you're going for.  

I'm curious to know what type oven you have and how have you been baking with it?  Can you post a picture of the oven along with where you place the stone.  I know very little about ovens, but there are many members here who are can help with that like Scott123.  Scott is well versed in ovens, stones, the NY style, cold ferments, and minimal kneading with bread flour.  He recently posted his recipe.  I'd give that a try as well and I'm sure he also would not mine helping with the specifics.

Chau

Bill - beautiful dough.  

[Moondance]

Ok, boy you guys want details! 

Bread Machine:  Regal K6746S I use the dough cycle which is 11.5 min kenad; 15 min rest; 13.5 min knead, 50 min rise.  Now I have tried the full cycle which turns out a lovely silkey dough ball and also tried taking it out after the first merciless 11.5 min knead, as well as a few times in between.

My oven is a GE Electric Oven Convection Oven CS98-5N1SS which on regular heat is up to 550.  Convection which I haven't used because the heat seems to be lower.  I have tried the baking stone on the bottom rack, middle rack, top rack.

Flour 100%'
Water 60%
IDY 0.3 %
Salt 2.9%
Oil 2.0%
Sugar 2.0%


Flour 100%
Water 63%
IDY 0.20%
Salt 1.75%
oIL 2%
Sugar 1%

This is one of Chickenparms:
Flour 100%
Water 60%
IDY 0.3%
Salt 2.0%
Oil 2.0%
sUGAR 2.0%

I use Celctic Sea Salt, Organic cane sugar. KA bread flour, I have used both SAF IDY and Fleishmans bread machien,EVOO.  I have been using very cold water in the bread machine followed by the wet ingredients ,then the dry with the yeast last.   

If someone can stear me to one recipe and step by step with the bread machine and I will stick to that until I get some consistent results, that would be great.  Please excuse the spelling.  My screen wont let me see everything as I type.  Grrrr.  Anything else I shoud add, please ask away.

[Moondance]

The other thing is I don't seem to always get a good rise.  When I have, it was much better.  I put the dough in a rubbermaid type tub and seal it into the fridge.  I usually just gently get it out of the BM, oil it and into the tub, I have been balling it ever so gently .  I see Chickenparms pics look great.  Do you seal them airtight or plastic wrap?  It looks like a glass bowl? 

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks for the details Regina.  It will help members be able to better help you as we don't have to guess at where the problems are.  If anything is obviously wrong, it will be more apparent.

A few other questions.  

-What difference did it seem to make when you tried baking with the stone up high, middle, or low?  Which gave you the better results?  I don't have an electric oven so someone will have to chime in as what works best for electric ovens.
-How long are you preheating?  Are you checking temps of the stone with an IR thermometer prior to loading the pizza?  What stone temps are you loading at? I know you said you bake at 550F, is that the stone temp or is that the temp on the dial you are referring to?
-Do you have any pictures of your past pizzas?  Did you like it or not.  What did you want to improve about it? or what was the problem?  Too much or too little chew?  Crust not brown enough or too dark?  Crumb is too wet or too dry?  What?    Simply telling me that you made some good pizza and some not so good pizza doesn't tell me anything.  

Okay so you have tried to knead the dough to different times with the BM.  I want to commend you on that, but did you notice any difference in the dough or the finish product?  Which seem to give better results.   I haven't made pizza dough in a BM, but I have heard good things about it from several members, so you should be able to get it to work.

The other thing is I don't seem to always get a good rise.  When I have, it was much better.  I put the dough in a rubbermaid type tub and seal it into the fridge.  I usually just gently get it out of the BM, oil it and into the tub, I have been balling it ever so gently .  I see Chickenparms pics look great.  Do you seal them airtight or plastic wrap?  It looks like a glass bowl?  

If you aren't getting a good rise, then I would recommend increasing the temperature of your water a bit or leave the dough out at room temps longer before it goes into the fridge.   If you are using very cold water and dividing the dough right after it's mixed and into a very cold fridge then I can see why your dough isn't rising much.   I understand that the BM can heat up the dough a bit while mixing so I understand the use of cold water.  You can try using room temperature and/or let the balled dough sit out at room temps for 1 hour before going to sleep in the fridge.  

Also using the clear see through rubber maid containers is a good idea since you can monitor the progress of your dough.  Next time you make dough, take pictures of the dough right after you take it out and put it on the counter for the final proof before baking.  This will allow members to see if you are using the dough at an appropriate stage.   Also how long are you cold fermenting these doughs and how long do you leave them on the counter (after coming out of the fridge) prior to baking?  

I think all the recipes you listed are fine and should make fine pizzas.  We can tweak them if you want to continue with any of those recipes.  Did any of these make the kind of pizza that you like? or are you looking for a completely different type of pizza?

Chau

[chickenparm]

Regina,

They are plastic bowls in the pics.I put the plastic lid on top that came with the bowl.

While I normally use the cool tap water,never cold,I also have been using store brand Purified spring water in the gallon size to make my dough.It makes no difference either way,and the jug of water has been room temp since I store it in my cabinet.I don't fridge it at all.While my tap water has always been fine,there was a few times it came out smelling bleachy or chlorine like,so I bought water from the store to use instead when the tap water might taste funny to me.

Just to point out again,my dough has come out the same with either water.Cool or room temp.I have never used very cold water,and maybe that might be a problem for some machines.

Here is what I do with the Oster Bread machine.

Add all the liquids first.

That means,I add the water and the oil I will be using into the machine mixing bucket,first.

In another bowl,I add the flour,salt,sugar and yeast,mix it well into the flour,then pour that flour mix into the bread machine bucket where the dough and oil is already in there.

Then I press the dough option button and let the machine knead and do its job.When its done kneading,I let the dough rise for 30 minutes before the light ball shaping and putting into the fridge.


The pics I posted are the results of the exact way I have done it.

[Jet_deck]

 I use the dough cycle which is 11.5 min kenad; 15 min rest; 13.5 min knead, 50 min rise.  Now I have tried the full cycle which turns out a lovely silkey dough ball and also tried taking it out after the first merciless 11.5 min knead, as well as a few times in between.

Moondance, as a newbie myself, I have problems with this much kneading.  There is no problem with any of the dough recipes that you posted. However, if  you are still doing a Wednesday mix and a Friday bake, that is probably to much kneading for a 48 hour ferment.  The King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) is pretty high in protein, in comparison to other bread flours.  For a ferment in the timeline that you might be using, the dough should look pretty shaggy.  Like oatmeal kinda, or orange skin in appearence.  20 minutes kneading a kabf could produce the results you don't like.

Can I get someone else to agree?

[Jackie Tran]

JD, I do agree with you but it's really hard to argue what texture is ideal since everyone's taste is so different.  This is why I was asking Regina questions about what type of pizza she wants to make and what she did or did not like about these pizzas that she's made.   As well as her thoughts on the results when she varied the mixing times.  Believe it or not, some members actually do like a really chewy crust.

Also I'm not as familiar with the NY style compare to the NY hybrid pies that I make, so some chew is acceptable if the NY style is what she wants to make. 

But in general, I agree with you that mixing a moderately low hydration dough using BF to full gluten development PLUS a 2 day cold ferment should produce an overly chewy tough crumb.  The 2% oil should help alleviate some of that toughness, but I'm not sure it's enough. 

I think/hope that if she has had good results with Bill's recipe and procedures that he can ultimately lead her to producing a much more consistent and desireable pizza. 

Chau   

[chickenparm]

Chau,
Thanks for the nice comment about my doughs! I did not see that until tonight.
  

Regina,

I know you and I do not have the same type of bread machine. I do not think your rise problems is caused by the machine either.Chau had some great advice about the water and temps.I have used the very same recipe you use for KABF and it has always worked.There is nothing wrong with your recipe,I think something is maybe keeping your yeast from doings its job.

Maybe Try some room temp water,maybe warmer tap water,and see what happens.Maybe the very cold water was keeping the yeast from doing its job?I dont know,but its a guess at this point.

Also,does your bread machine use heat during the rise cycle? I was not sure...mine does,so I cannot leave the dough in there past 30 minutes,it will grow too big in the fridge after I take it out and lightly ball it.

My Oster machine will knead for 5 minutes on start up,then rest for 5,then knead for the next 20 minutes until done for rise time.My dough on removal is always a bit smooth,silky,not rough or dry in any way.

I have used 60% -63% recipe doughs with KABF,AP flour,High Gluten flour,and the amount of 25 minutes knead time has never hurt the dough any.It always worked.During the heated rise time,say 30 minutes or less,the dough should be noticably larger in size,not a huge amount,but enough to notice its growing.

The cold fridge rise is to slow it down some,let it ferment,and turn into a tasty dough you can use and enjoy for pizza.

 

[Moondance]

A few other questions. 

-What difference did it seem to make when you tried baking with the stone up high, middle, or low?  Which gave you the better results?  I don't have an electric oven so someone will have to chime in as what works best for electric ovens.
-How long are you preheating?  Are you checking temps of the stone with an IR thermometer prior to loading the pizza?  What stone temps are you loading at? I know you said you bake at 550F, is that the stone temp or is that the temp on the dial you are referring to?
-Do you have any pictures of your past pizzas?  Did you like it or not.  What did you want to improve about it? or what was the problem?  Too much or too little chew?  Crust not brown enough or too dark?  Crumb is too wet or too dry?  What?    Simply telling me that you made some good pizza and some not so good pizza doesn't tell me anything. 

Chau,

I recently got a new stove but the prior stove was also electric and of course one of my favorite pizzas was in the old oven.  I beleive my best results have been lower in the oven.  I do preheat for a minimum of one hour and up to two hours.  I do not have an IR thermometer but it's on my list of must haves. My stove beeps when it reaches the 550 temp which is below the one hour time.  So I always go well beyond that.

I don't have any pictures yet but when my husband and I both loved them, they were crispy crust on the outside with the rim puffed up and tender inside.  The middle portion was thinner but still had some body, didn't droop where you had to hold it with two hands.  I never have a problem spreading out the dough.  It's usually quite workable in that way.  When I didn't like it was when it was too thin, no tenderness, too crunchy.  Last weekends didn't work either because I overdid it on the sauce and it was too soupy in the middle. 

I did get my new pizza stone yesterday from the King Arthur website.  I noticed on their instructions they said to never cut the pizza on the stone.  Sometimes I do and sometimes I remove it so it doesn't cook too long.  I think that may be one of my problems too is I left it on the stone too long and it overcooked.

If you aren't getting a good rise, then I would recommend increasing the temperature of your water a bit or leave the dough out at room temps longer before it goes into the fridge.   If you are using very cold water and dividing the dough right after it's mixed and into a very cold fridge then I can see why your dough isn't rising much.   I understand that the BM can heat up the dough a bit while mixing so I understand the use of cold water.  You can try using room temperature and/or let the balled dough sit out at room temps for 1 hour before going to sleep in the fridge. 

That is good advice and I'm going to do that tonight.  I will increase the water temp some and also leave the dough out for an hour before it goes to the fridge. 

Also using the clear see through rubber maid containers is a good idea since you can monitor the progress of your dough.  Next time you make dough, take pictures of the dough right after you take it out and put it on the counter for the final proof before baking.  This will allow members to see if you are using the dough at an appropriate stage.   Also how long are you cold fermenting these doughs and how long do you leave them on the counter (after coming out of the fridge) prior to baking? 

I will try to get some pictures Friday.  I usually cold ferment from Wednesday night to Friday night.  I leave it on the lightly floured large wood cutting board covered lightly with some plastic wrap so it won't dry for at least an hour or two.

I'm already feeling encouraged and looking forward to my next attempt!

[Moondance]

While I normally use the cool tap water,never cold,I also have been using store brand Purified spring water in the gallon size to make my dough.It makes no difference either way,and the jug of water has been room temp since I store it in my cabinet.I don't fridge it at all.While my tap water has always been fine,there was a few times it came out smelling bleachy or chlorine like,so I bought water from the store to use instead when the tap water might taste funny to me.

Just to point out again,my dough has come out the same with either water.Cool or room temp.I have never used very cold water,and maybe that might be a problem for some machines.

Here is what I do with the Oster Bread machine.

Add all the liquids first.

That means,I add the water and the oil I will be using into the machine mixing bucket,first.

In another bowl,I add the flour,salt,sugar and yeast,mix it well into the flour,then pour that flour mix into the bread machine bucket where the dough and oil is already in there.

Then I press the dough option button and let the machine knead and do its job.When its done kneading,I let the dough rise for 30 minutes before the light ball shaping and putting into the fridge.

Great information Bill,

My water is good deep mountain well water.  We like the taste a lot. 

My BM does use heat in the rise.  I am going to follow your process above tonight using the warmer temp water and letting the dough rise for at least 30 min to an hour.  Just to clarify, do you take the dough out of the BM after the first knead cycle?

Thanks so much! 

[Moondance]

Moondance, as a newbie myself, I have problems with this much kneading.  There is no problem with any of the dough recipes that you posted. However, if  you are still doing a Wednesday mix and a Friday bake, that is probably to much kneading for a 48 hour ferment.  The King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) is pretty high in protein, in comparison to other bread flours.  For a ferment in the timeline that you might be using, the dough should look pretty shaggy.  Like oatmeal kinda, or orange skin in appearence.  20 minutes kneading a kabf could produce the results you don't like.

Thanks Jet deck,

You may be right.  I always feel like it just too much beating up the dough.  Just seems like there should be a kinder gentler way.  I'll try to post results and pics after Friday.

[buceriasdon]

Regina, you mentioned your oven beeps at 550, I'm guessing but I think that is as high as the oven will go, that beep is telling you it's ready or that's it's maximum temp. Back in Colorado our electric stopped at 550 after it beeped.
Don

[chickenparm]

Regina,I never take the dough out until the final rise time of 20-30 minutes is finished.

(I choose this amount of time to allow the dough rise,but the machine does have an hour for rise built in the timer...that is too long,and makes my dough way too big and will overferment in the fridge or get too many bubbles)
 

The dough is usually a little bit(minor) sticky,and I sprinkle some bench flour around the dough edges to help it come out the bucket easier and not stick too much to my hands when scooping it out.

[Moondance]

Regina, you mentioned your oven beeps at 550, I'm guessing but I think that is as high as the oven will go, that beep is telling you it's ready or that's it's maximum temp. Back in Colorado our electric stopped at 550 after it beeped.
Don

Yes the max is 550 and 525 for convection.  But maybe the stone will get hotter still?  I tried to attach a picture of my oven but I got an error saying the file was too big.  I'll have to figure this one out