Getting pretty frustrated

[pdog]

Thanks pdog.  The longer I keep trying to figure it out, the more I realize how complex pizza making is.  But it's a fun and as you say tasty journey.  That's good information and I will start paying a lot more attention to the water temps and rise factors.  

What do you use to mix your dough with only 5 min of kneading?

Here is a picture of a sourdough bread that I did not knead at all....... I mixed all ingredients under 1 minute.

All of the kneading in this dough was completed by time only!  It warm fermented for 18 hours, and this time period aligned the gluten and performed the function of "kneading" the dough.

My general rule of thumb is short ferment = a need for more kneading....... long ferment = little to no kneading.

General rule - re worded to be visually descriptive........ Short ferment = kneading until dough looks smooth or silky..... Long ferment = dough looks lumpy and dull.

Hope this helps!

Just simply don't give up...... Here is a picture of where I started!

[Moondance]

Regina,

Do you have a pic of the latest pie you just made?

When I look at your formula, might first thought was "Too much oil & salt".  Your doughball was 436gr. and when I ran those numbers through the calculator it came out to this:

Flour (100%): Water (60%): IDY (0.3%): Salt (2%): Oil (2%): Sugar (2%): Total (166.3%):

262.18 g  |  9.25 oz | 0.58 lbs 157.31 g  |  5.55 oz | 0.35 lbs 0.79 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.26 tsp | 0.09 tbsp 5.24 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.94 tsp | 0.31 tbsp 5.24 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp 5.24 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 436 g | 15.38 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = N/A

IF that is your formula above...I suggest that you might want to lower the salt amount, lower the oil amount and keep the sugar the same. Salt is known as an inhibitor to yeast activity and oil can make the crust too pliable. It can also prevent the flour from absorbing all the water.

What kind of mixer are you using?

Thanks Mike for your input.  I am using a Bread Machine.  I do not have a mixer.  Would you suggest 1% for the oil and salt?    I think I need to stick to something more simplistic than the very wet dough you are mixing.  Once I get more confident, I will delve into more variations.   

I was quite pleased with last night's bake.  I will post pics and more comments on Monday.  Home computer is too slow for the pictures.  Thanks also for the link to that website.  I will check it out for sure.  BTW that sourdough bread looks beautiful and I appreciate your rules of thumb with regard to ferment time and kneading.  Gives me much to think about and more tools in my toolbag!

[Moondance]

I am still having problems reducing image sizes on my pics.  My picture of the finished pie reduced but not quite small enough.  I'm searching the internet for other programs that might work.  That's why I haven't posted results from last Friday. 

Don, I saw on my camera that I can change the picture size, so I will try that for future images.

[Essen1]

I am still having problems reducing image sizes on my pics.  My picture of the finished pie reduced but not quite small enough.  I'm searching the internet for other programs that might work.  That's why I haven't posted results from last Friday. 

Don, I saw on my camera that I can change the picture size, so I will try that for future images.

Regina,

Use this:

http://download.cnet.com/Image-Resizer-Powertoy-for-Windows-XP/3000-18487_4-10905400.html

[DNA Dan]

Out of curiosity, how long does your bread maker mix the dough? I suspect you are over-kneading the dough. As pdog posted, typically longer ferments require less mixing. However there is a point at which too much mixing just makes a hockey puck. Too dense and chewy. This differs from making bread because in bread baking you cook the dough once it has risen. Since you are making pizza with it, you are removing this air from the dough when you make the skin. The dough may be overdeveloped at that point.

[chickenparm]

Out of curiosity, how long does your bread maker mix the dough? I suspect you are over-kneading the dough. As pdog posted, typically longer ferments require less mixing. However there is a point at which too much mixing just makes a hockey puck. Too dense and chewy. This differs from making bread because in bread baking you cook the dough once it has risen. Since you are making pizza with it, you are removing this air from the dough when you make the skin. The dough may be overdeveloped at that point.

Dan,my bread machine mixes/kneads the dough in 30 minutes total knead/rest/knead/rise times.I believe her machine is about the same,only her rest time in between cycles is longer.Her machine rest time between mixing/kneading is closer to an ideal autolyse than mine is.

She's not using the machine to make or cook bread,just to mix or knead the dough.Same as myself.Bread machines have that option to knead dough whether it's for pizzas,bagels,or breads.

The dough does not care if the machine is called a bread machine or kitchen aid mixer.We have been trying to help her get her dough to rise better after mixing it in the machine.I seriously doubt its being overkneaded.The use of very cold water can retard the growth of the yeast and the doughballs.She changed the water temps and seen new changes.

I do agree that with longer ferment times,dough may require less kneading.That said,I would like to see some more of her progress with the new doughs shes mixed up before we go any further and guess the next step.

I know I had good success with my bread machining mixing and kneading doughs.I believe she can do the same.

 

[Jackie Tran]

I agree Bill.  Regina should let us know if her recent pies have improved and what she liked or did not like before more suggestions are made.   One of her original issues is inconsistency due to trying out too many different recipes (and flours).  Regina, your salt and oil %'s are within an acceptable range.  IF you find that the crumb is too tough or chewy and you decide to decrease the amount of kneading, then at that point I would suggest to decrease the oil to 1% to see the difference.  As it is though, it seems appropriate given the amount of kneading from the bread machine.

Chau

[Moondance]

Regina,

Use this:

http://download.cnet.com/Image-Resizer-Powertoy-for-Windows-XP/3000-18487_4-10905400.html

I hate to sound like a complete idiot, but I have downloaded this file and saved it but I do not understand how to use it.  There is supposed to be a taskbar somewhere and I cannot find it.  If I right click a JPG file type I do not get an option to resize.    This is making me crazy.  Any suggestions? 

[buceriasdon]

Regina, I saw that Image Optimizer was working for you, sorry, not familar with that other program. It may be you have to delete one of them or both and then download the one you want to use.
Don

I hate to sound like a complete idiot, but I have downloaded this file and saved it but I do not understand how to use it.  There is supposed to be a taskbar somewhere and I cannot find it.  If I right click a JPG file type I do not get an option to resize.    This is making me crazy.  Any suggestions?  

[chickenparm]

I hate to sound like a complete idiot, but I have downloaded this file and saved it but I do not understand how to use it.  There is supposed to be a taskbar somewhere and I cannot find it.  If I right click a JPG file type I do not get an option to resize.    This is making me crazy.  Any suggestions? 

In a file,put the photos on thumbnails so you can see each picture you saved.

Left Click on the picture you want to select to use or resize,and make it highlight blue or whatever color it uses.When it does that,right click and see if resize is now there on the list.If it is,click resize and it will make a smaller one on the bottom of the file below the larger pics.

I had the same problem you did,and I did restart the computer when the resize was not there at first.There is also no other file or icon to click to open once it downloads...it will aalready be part of the program now.You wont have to look for it either.It will be there on right click after you click on a picture you want to change.

[Moondance]

Regina, I saw that Image Optimizer was working for you, sorry, not familar with that other program. It may be you have to delete one of them or both and then download the one you want to use.
Don

it worked with most of the images, but the image that shows the finished product turned out a bit too large and I can't make it any smaller....

[chickenparm]

I wanted to show you folks another picture or two of how nice the dough turns out at times from the machine and cold rises.In these pictures,this is a over risen dough I wasn't going to use,so I decided to have a little fun with it.
 

[Moondance]

I mixed up another batch for tomorrow night.

flour 100%
water 60%
IDY 0.3 %
Salt 2.0%
oil 2.0%
sugar 2.0%

one dough ball 14" 15.39 OZ

i took it out after the first knead cycle about 12 min.  I did not have to add any flour or water and I will let it sit on the counter about 1/2 hour for bake tomorrow night.  It came out firmer than last nights dough.  Maybe I mis-measured last night.  I can post pics tomorrow from work. My computer at home is slow speed mountain connection.  In town I have high speed. Timer just went off and I did not notice much rise in the doughafter about 1/2 hour.  I sealed it and put it in the fridge. 

Ok, I'm back and hope to now put up pics.  Once again these are from last friday's bake which was mixed as stated above in the quote in my Regal Bread Machine.

We were quite pleased with how this one came out.  I used almost room temp water which seems to have made a difference.  The crust was pretty light and airy at the rim with crunch/chewy combination pretty much throughout.  It did lack some flavor but I think that was because I skimped on the sauce because I over did it last time.  It was baked in 1 hour preheated electric oven at 550 for about 8 min.  I took it out and immediately placed in on my SS pizza pan so it did not continue to cook.  I'm sure that also made a big difference.  What do you think? 

[Moondance]

Last night (Wednesday) I mixed up my dough for this Friday using the same recipe but maybe rounding the salt oil and sugar instead of being so exact.  It mixed very nicely but I did add maybe 1/2 tsp more of water during the mix.  After the first knead cycle of about 11.5 minutes, I put it in the oiled container and directly into the fridge for Friday night.  I'll let you know how it goes.  Thanks for everyones help.  I hope I getting on the right track now.

[Moondance]

Last night (Wednesday) I mixed up my dough for this Friday using the same recipe but maybe rounding the salt oil and sugar instead of being so exact.  It mixed very nicely but I did add maybe 1/2 tsp more of water during the mix.  After the first knead cycle of about 11.5 minutes, I put it in the oiled container and directly into the fridge for Friday night.  I'll let you know how it goes.  Thanks for everyones help.  I hope I getting on the right track now.

Last wednesday meaning this week May 25th.

[jonesyb]

That last pizza looks utterly delicious.

[Jackie Tran]

Moondance, the pizza you posted looks delicious.  And if you like it that's all that matters.  If you follow the same recipe and procedure I don't see why you wouldn't get consistent results from here on out.  Only when you tire of eating that type of pizza should you experiment a little.  Just make one or 2 changes at a time so you can see how those changes play out. 

I would just give one tip.  When the pizza comes out of the oven, I like to cool it on a rack for a few minutes before cutting.  This allows some of the heat to dissipate and avoids steaming the bottom.  It'll keep the bottom crisp unless you dislike a crisp bottom.

I would say you have a winner of a recipe and procedure there.   

Chau

[jever4321]

I agree with Chau, Your pizza looks great. Good job!

[chickenparm]

Nice Job! Looks like your'e getting it all dialed in now.The dough and especially The pizza,looks great!
 
Also,some advice,agreeing with Chau too,putting a pizza straight onto the SS tray can cause it to get watery or soggy on the bottom sometimes.I put mine pies on pizza screen that sits on the counter to let it cool off a few minutes there.

You will need to decide for yourself if the pizza is just fine on the tray or if it indeed becomes a bit soggy after sitting a few minutes.If your crust is crisp enough,you may not notice it or it may be no big deal.

Keep up the good work!

 

[chickenparm]

I wanted to tell you,check your dough each day.If it gets alot of bubbles or rises too much,it may over rise by the time you are going to use it.Also good learning experience to see how it changes each day.