Getting pretty frustrated

[scott123]

Looks good Regina!

Don't sweat the popped lid too much.  As long as you put the lid back on and give it at least a day, the moisture will have a chance to travel back into the dry areas of the dough. A popped lid could be that the container is too airtight or possibly too much yeast.  Is the dough doubling within the few days you're refrigerating it or is it more than doubling? If the dough is doubling or less, then you might want to put a pinhole in the container to let the gas escape.

Between now and when you start playing around with oven tricks, there's one small thing you can do to promote a little bit better oven spring: dial back the thickness factor.  Thick skins only tend to compound breadiness issues. Scale back the recipe, maybe 15% and stretch it to the diameter you're stretching now.  Watch it closely in the oven because it will bake up a bit faster.

[Moondance]

Looks good Regina!

Don't sweat the popped lid too much.  As long as you put the lid back on and give it at least a day, the moisture will have a chance to travel back into the dry areas of the dough. A popped lid could be that the container is too airtight or possibly too much yeast.  Is the dough doubling within the few days you're refrigerating it or is it more than doubling? If the dough is doubling or less, then you might want to put a pinhole in the container to let the gas escape.

Between now and when you start playing around with oven tricks, there's one small thing you can do to promote a little bit better oven spring: dial back the thickness factor.  Thick skins only tend to compound breadiness issues. Scale back the recipe, maybe 15% and stretch it to the diameter you're stretching now.  Watch it closely in the oven because it will bake up a bit faster.

The dough about doubles, no more than that though. 

Interesting about scaling back thickness because on this one I actually upped it slightly from 0.1 to 0.105 using the Lehmann Dough Calculator.  What thickness do you think I should try?  I'll give it a go for tomorrow's night dough.

[Moondance]

Scott123
I hit post too quickly and think I answered my own questions.  Use the same recipe factors but from for instance 15" pizza to a 12.75" pizza but stretch it out to 15"?

[scott123]

Regina, if you're comfortable working with the dough calculator, that's great- just plug in .85 for the thickness factor. I like to work with .75 myself, but, I think, for now, .85 should be a good goal.

One caveat, as you go thinner, it does get a little bit harder to stretch.  If stretching a .1 pie is the slightest bit awkward for you, then .85 is going to be even more difficult. Just like Carnegie Hall, though, the way to get there is practice, practice, practice 

Where's your recipe at these days? In order to have dough that handles well/is extensible without tearing, it's important that the recipe/dough handling be spot on.

[Moondance]

Regina, if you're comfortable working with the dough calculator, that's great- just plug in .85 for the thickness factor. I like to work with .75 myself, but, I think, for now, .85 should be a good goal.

One caveat, as you go thinner, it does get a little bit harder to stretch.  If stretching a .1 pie is the slightest bit awkward for you, then .85 is going to be even more difficult. Just like Carnegie Hall, though, the way to get there is practice, practice, practice 

Where's your recipe at these days? In order to have dough that handles well/is extensible without tearing, it's important that the recipe/dough handling be spot on.

I think this is the one I have used the last 3 times.  What would you change?  Keep in mind I'm using the bread machine as well.

flour 100%
water 60%
IDY 0.3 %
Salt 2.0%
oil 2.0%
sugar 2.0%
0.1 thickness factor is what I normally use, but last week I tried the 0.105

Yes, I sometimes have a hard time stretching it out.  I will stretch/rest/stretch until I get it where I want.  Sometimes the middle has gotten too thin even though I try not to touch the middle at all.  It may be a challenge but I'm up for it.  Thanks!

[scott123]

Your dough really shouldn't be fighting you on the stretch.  There's two areas where you can boost the dough's extensibility and produce something that's easier to form.  Gluten development and hydration.

Cold fermentation (refrigeration) is a kneading equivalent. Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but if you're cold fermenting for two days, you need very little kneading at the offset. If you're using the bread machine to knead the dough until it's smooth, it's way too far.  Smooth is great for same day doughs, but when you add refrigeration to the mix, it's kneading overkill. You want to let the machine knead the dough until it's well mixed and no more.  Cottage cheese-y to somewhere between cottage cheese-y and smooth is a good appearance to shoot for. My total mixing/kneading time, by hand, is about 2 minutes.  I don't know how this translates to a bread machine, but I would dial it back- maybe try half as long and then checking on the appearance of the dough.

Also, just to confirm, you're forming the final dough balls before refrigeration and not re-balling the dough anytime close to forming, correct?

You're working with KABF, right?  KABF can handle a couple more percentage points of water.  Go with 62% hydration. That should help with extensibility.

Other than that, everything looks pretty good, if you're current amount of yeast is almost doubling the dough after two days cold ferment, that's right on the money. Water encourages yeast activity, so, if you bump it up to 62%, keep an eye on it, but I think you should be fine.

Here's my tips for stretching dough:

Watch this video a few times (ignore the rolling pin stuff)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>

When you're flattening the dough ball with your finger tips, leave a slight mound in the middle.

Gently slap this small mound a few times without pressing the dough too much, this will activate the gluten in the center of the dough, and when you pick it up to knuckle stretch, the middle will stay tighter and won't have a tendency to thin out as much.

[Moondance]

If you can't break the 6 minute bake barrier, you shouldn't be baking with Caputo. In my opinion, you really shouldn't be using Caputo above 3 minutes (some others feel differently). Caputo can work in 3-4 minute Neo-NY/Coal scenarios (usually blended with other flours), but Neapolitan sub 2 minute bakes are really where it shines. Since you list the favorite pizza in your profile as 'thin crust,' I'm not even certain that you'd be a big fan of the softer/puffier (and usually a bit wetter) Neapolitan style. Since you've mentioned a few times being happy with 'crispy' results, that would, in my opinion, definitely rule out Caputo, as it's suited towards less crispy styles.

'Thin crust' can be 'thin crust Chicago' (higher oil content, I believe), 'cracker thin crust', and NY style.  Even though you have ties to Chicago, I'm guessing, by the photos of the pizzas you're making, that you're striving for something along the lines of NY Style.  For NY style, you want, like I said earlier, real NY pizzeria flour. Not Caputo, not KABF.  Bromated brands include All Trumps, Bouncer, Sam's Club High Gluten Chef's flour, Balancer, Hummer, Kyrol, Spring King, Full Strength, King Midas Special. Restaurant Depot carries at least one of these brands, but it can be tricky to shop there because they'll only sell to people with business licenses.  Some locations will give you a one day pass.  Cash and Carry is another wholesaler with locations in Washington, although, from the FAQ, it looks there's a chance they sell to the public.

http://www.smartfoodservice.com/FAQs.aspx

I would give them a call and see if you can buy flour there. If not, your next best bet is probably Sam's Club.

I have a smartfoodservice cashncarry about 10 miles from me and will try to go there tomorrow to check it out.  They are open to the public.  I've been using KABF in most all my dough.  I do like the puffier crust if it has some crunch. I do not like cracker thin crust.  Never been a fan of deep dish either even though my roots are in Chicago.

[buceriasdon]

Regina, I'm with Scott, I would up your water to at least 62%. Also here very soon you will have to start a new thread titled "I'm Not Frustrated Now".  
Don

[Moondance]

Your dough really shouldn't be fighting you on the stretch.  There's two areas where you can boost the dough's extensibility and produce something that's easier to form.  Gluten development and hydration.

Cold fermentation (refrigeration) is a kneading equivalent. Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but if you're cold fermenting for two days, you need very little kneading at the offset. If you're using the bread machine to knead the dough until it's smooth, it's way too far.  Smooth is great for same day doughs, but when you add refrigeration to the mix, it's kneading overkill. You want to let the machine knead the dough until it's well mixed and no more.  Cottage cheese-y to somewhere between cottage cheese-y and smooth is a good appearance to shoot for. My total mixing/kneading time, by hand, is about 2 minutes.  I don't know how this translates to a bread machine, but I would dial it back- maybe try half as long and then checking on the appearance of the dough.

Also, just to confirm, you're forming the final dough balls before refrigeration and not re-balling the dough anytime close to forming, correct?

You're working with KABF, right?  KABF can handle a couple more percentage points of water.  Go with 62% hydration. That should help with extensibility.

Other than that, everything looks pretty good, if you're current amount of yeast is almost doubling the dough after two days cold ferment, that's right on the money. Water encourages yeast activity, so, if you bump it up to 62%, keep an eye on it, but I think you should be fine.

Here's my tips for stretching dough:

Watch this video a few times (ignore the rolling pin stuff)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA

When you're flattening the dough ball with your finger tips, leave a slight mound in the middle.

Gently slap this small mound a few times without pressing the dough too much, this will activate the gluten in the center of the dough, and when you pick it up to knuckle stretch, the middle will stay tighter and won't have a tendency to thin out as much.

Ok great.  I'm home now and my recipe last week was
flour 100%
water 63%
IDY 0.3%
SALT 1.75%
OIL 2%
SUGAR 1%
15 " PIZZA AT 0.105 THICKNESS FACTOR

So you think I should stick with that and try to stetch further?  I will have to watch the video tomorrow at work.  Home computer too slow. 

[Moondance]

Regina, I'm with Scott, I would up your water to at least 62%. Also here very soon you will have to start a new thread titled "I'm Not Frustrated Now".  
Don

Don,
 

seriously though, as a newbie, should I start a new thread at some point? 

[Jet_deck]

Don,
 

seriously though, as a newbie, should I start a new thread at some point? 

The newbie status grants you the same rights as the forum greats.
Your new thread will get one of two responses.  1) it will be ignored 2) you will continue to recieve great tips when you need them.

Jump in, the water is great!

[scott123]

I have a smartfoodservice cashncarry about 10 miles from me and will try to go there tomorrow to check it out.  They are open to the public.  I've been using KABF in most all my dough.  I do like the puffier crust if it has some crunch. I do not like cracker thin crust.  Never been a fan of deep dish either even though my roots are in Chicago.

How much pizza are you currently making? It's most likely going to be a 50 lb. bag, but the price should be good (most likely half the price of KABF) and the results will be superior. Wholesale flour such as this is usually very fresh and can be stored for quite a few months without issue.  I get covered food grade plastic buckets from the bakery department at my local supermarket.

[scott123]

Ok great.  I'm home now and my recipe last week was
flour 100%
water 63%
IDY 0.3%
SALT 1.75%
OIL 2%
SUGAR 1%
15 " PIZZA AT 0.105 THICKNESS FACTOR

So you think I should stick with that and try to stetch further?  I will have to watch the video tomorrow at work.  Home computer too slow.

You know what? Since you've already tried 63%, I would bump it up a tiny bit more- 64%. And definitely, dial back the kneading.  Less kneading will go a long way in giving you an easier stretch.

By 'stretching it further'  do you mean make it larger than 15"? If so, then no, if you've been making 15" pies, stick with that.  Just plug the figures into the calculator and go with a thickness factor of .85.  Instead of using your existing quantity of dough and stretching it further, you're reducing the quantity of dough and stretching it to the same width.

[Moondance]

How much pizza are you currently making? It's most likely going to be a 50 lb. bag, but the price should be good (most likely half the price of KABF) and the results will be superior. Wholesale flour such as this is usually very fresh and can be stored for quite a few months without issue.  I get covered food grade plastic buckets from the bakery department at my local supermarket.

I only make pizza once a week but I also bake bread.  I hope they carry something different.  My URM store a couple doors down from my business doesn't carry any special flours but they do carry some of the great tomatoe products folks on this forum have raved about.  I haven't yet used them because I've been to focused on the dough. 

You know what? Since you've already tried 63%, I would bump it up a tiny bit more- 64%. And definitely, dial back the kneading.  Less kneading will go a long way in giving you an easier stretch.

By 'stretching it further'  do you mean make it larger than 15"? If so, then no, if you've been making 15" pies, stick with that.  Just plug the figures into the calculator and go with a thickness factor of .85.  Instead of using your existing quantity of dough and stretching it further, you're reducing the quantity of dough and stretching it to the same width.

Ok, I will use 64%, much less kneading and stretch to 15" with .85 thickness factor.

Your dough really shouldn't be fighting you on the stretch.  There's two areas where you can boost the dough's extensibility and produce something that's easier to form.  Gluten development and hydration.

Also, just to confirm, you're forming the final dough balls before refrigeration and not re-balling the dough anytime close to forming, correct?

Here's my tips for stretching dough:

Watch this video a few times (ignore the rolling pin stuff)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA

When you're flattening the dough ball with your finger tips, leave a slight mound in the middle.

Gently slap this small mound a few times without pressing the dough too much, this will activate the gluten in the center of the dough, and when you pick it up to knuckle stretch, the middle will stay tighter and won't have a tendency to thin out as much.

I do not re-ball the dough anytime after refrigeration.

The video is very helpful.  My dough so far doesn't have near the extensibility of his dough.

[Moondance]

'Thin crust' can be 'thin crust Chicago' (higher oil content, I believe), 'cracker thin crust', and NY style.  Even though you have ties to Chicago, I'm guessing, by the photos of the pizzas you're making, that you're striving for something along the lines of NY Style.  For NY style, you want, like I said earlier, real NY pizzeria flour. Not Caputo, not KABF.  Bromated brands include All Trumps, Bouncer, Sam's Club High Gluten Chef's flour, Balancer, Hummer, Kyrol, Spring King, Full Strength, King Midas Special. Restaurant Depot carries at least one of these brands, but it can be tricky to shop there because they'll only sell to people with business licenses.  Some locations will give you a one day pass.  Cash and Carry is another wholesaler with locations in Washington, although, from the FAQ, it looks there's a chance they sell to the public.

http://www.smartfoodservice.com/FAQs.aspx

I went to my Smart Foodservice Cash&Carry today. They did not carry any of the brands flour you mentioned.  The only high gluten was Pendleton Power High Gluten.  I did pick up a 25# bag.  If I use this, would I supstitute the entire 100% or just partial quantity, or is this a bad choice altogether? 

They also had the Bel Giogioso Mozz Pizza Formula which I bought.  I had not seen the Pizza Formula in my local grocers so thought I would give it a try as well. 

I will be making my dough tonight so if someone can let me know if/how to use this HG flour I'd appreciate it.

[buceriasdon]

Hi Regina, My comment about a new thread was a compliment on how well you are doing and how far you have progressed. There certainly nothing wrong with blending flours but for now I suggest simply upping your hydration level and cutting back on your mix time in the bread machine and letting an overnight ferment do the rest of the work. If your dough is still too springy and elastic then again I would add more water to your high protein flour next week. Happy pizza making.
Don

[scott123]

Pendleton?  That's a bit of a bummer.  As far as unbromated flours go, it's a quality product, so I think you should get better results than KABF, but it won't be the same as using something bromated. I'm really surprised cash and carry has such a limited selection.

The Pendleton Power Flour is 13.5% protein, which, imo, is a little high for pizza, so my suggestion would be to dilute it with some All Purpose. I would try 66% Pendleton and 33% All Purpose.   

[Moondance]

Hi Regina, My comment about a new thread was a compliment on how well you are doing and how far you have progressed. There certainly nothing wrong with blending flours but for now I suggest simply upping your hydration level and cutting back on your mix time in the bread machine and letting an overnight ferment do the rest of the work. If your dough is still too springy and elastic then again I would add more water to your high protein flour next week. Happy pizza making.
Don

Thank you Don for the compliment and I think I will do just that for this weeks dough.

Pendleton?  That's a bit of a bummer.  As far as unbromated flours go, it's a quality product, so I think you should get better results than KABF, but it won't be the same as using something bromated. I'm really surprised cash and carry has such a limited selection.
The Pendleton Power Flour is 13.5% protein, which, imo, is a little high for pizza, so my suggestion would be to dilute it with some All Purpose. I would try 66% Pendleton and 33% All Purpose.   

Actually I would have been shocked if they did have it but it was worth a look.  I will try that formulation with next week's dough.  I'm afraid to make too many changes at once.  Thanks!

[Tscarborough]

I do not think there is any health risk with bromated flour, but I do not think it is needed for home pizza makers either.  Here is the KA stance, and I agree with it, if for different reasons.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/bromate.html

That said, I have never cooked with a bromated flour, so I may not know what I am missing (but I doubt it).

[Moondance]

I do not think there is any health risk with bromated flour, but I do not think it is needed for home pizza makers either.  Here is the KA stance, and I agree with it, if for different reasons.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/bromate.html

That said, I have never cooked with a bromated flour, so I may not know what I am missing (but I doubt it).

 

So therefore you think the Pendleton HG flour may be just fine in the percentages 66/33?  I probably don't have a choice unless I order something to be shipped to me.  Thank you for your comments.  Much appreciated. 

I mixed my recipe as above a few posts using Bill's method of mix the dry ingrediants together and combine with the wet.  I mixed for about 3 min til everythign came together.  Still rough looking, oiled and balled and into the fridge.  I'll have pics and results after the weekend.