Author Topic: How I make my NP dough  (Read 77685 times)

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Offline Chaze215

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #325 on: May 05, 2015, 10:33:50 PM »
Nevermind, I know to x by 100 to get the %. My bad.
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Offline Chaze215

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #326 on: May 05, 2015, 10:35:19 PM »
.65% isn't even on your chart Craig...lol
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #327 on: May 06, 2015, 08:40:36 AM »
If I went that high, it would be too wide. I figured if someone was making emergency dough they didn't need the chart.
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Offline Chaze215

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #328 on: May 06, 2015, 09:52:04 AM »
If I went that high, it would be too wide. I figured if someone was making emergency dough they didn't need the chart.
I would consider that emergency dough as well. I'm not convinced this is really their dough recipe anyway.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #329 on: May 06, 2015, 10:01:24 AM »
I would consider that emergency dough as well. I'm not convinced this is really their dough recipe anyway.

I think Roberta's uses a natural starter. I was there with Chau and some other folks from PM a few years back. He could taste it. I wasn't as sure. We asked, and they said it was a natural starter.
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Offline HBolte

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #330 on: May 06, 2015, 03:25:40 PM »
Craig, I just ordered my Ischia starter so that I can try to make your dough. In the book Classic Sourdoughs the Pizza recipe uses 21% culture. Your recipe uses about 1.5%. I'm sure you tried many formulas to come up with your great results. That said, how much difference is there between using IDY or cake yeast vs. the starter when the starter amount is so small?

Thanks
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #331 on: May 06, 2015, 05:51:46 PM »
Craig, I just ordered my Ischia starter so that I can try to make your dough. In the book Classic Sourdoughs the Pizza recipe uses 21% culture. Your recipe uses about 1.5%. I'm sure you tried many formulas to come up with your great results. That said, how much difference is there between using IDY or cake yeast vs. the starter when the starter amount is so small?

Thanks

First thing, rip all the pages that talk about pizza out of the book and burn them. Notice I didn't put a smiley behind that. I'm serious.

The difference is meaningful. Every time I make pizza with IDY, part of me hopes I will like it as much as SD because it's so much easier. Sadly, I never do.

It's like planting a seed. It's small, but it grows. Time and temperature are what matters.
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Offline HBolte

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #332 on: May 06, 2015, 06:28:59 PM »
Thanks, I'm really looking forward to getting started with the culture!
Hans

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #333 on: May 06, 2015, 06:30:16 PM »
Nowadays, I use about 1.5% in the summer and 1.9% in the winter.
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Offline f.montoya

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #334 on: May 07, 2015, 10:44:19 AM »
First thing, rip all the pages that talk about pizza out of the book and burn them. Notice I didn't put a smiley behind that. I'm serious.

There are probably thousands of books on pizza that should be used as ignition fuel for your WFO, IMO.

The difference is meaningful. Every time I make pizza with IDY, part of me hopes I will like it as much as SD because it's so much easier. Sadly, I never do.

It's like planting a seed. It's small, but it grows. Time and temperature are what matters.

The only disagreement I have is with how "meaningful" it is to use one over the other. CY, IDY and SD can produce very similar, if not exactly the same, visual results, depending on your fermentation methods, time and temperatures. Even texture can be identical. Flavor, or more specifically, the aroma, of the cornice (the only part of your pie not dominated by the flavors of the tomato, cheese, oil, etc.) is the only difference. It can be slight, or it can be a little more than slight, but it is noticeable. How noticeable? Well 10 out of 10 of my guests could not tell the difference, even when tasting side by side. I know of a group of "Neo" pizza makers on this board (shall remain nameless) who traveled together a few years back, and sampled several Neo places in New York and many guessed wrong (as to what the pizza joint was using) often enough to suspect they could not really tell the difference. I agree with Craig that there is a distinct flavor(or aroma) to SD, and even a soft "tanginess", if left in the mouth for a moment. I even agree that I prefer it slightly. But in my specific case, where I run parties for my English conversation school, and have 40 to 50 attendees, it's not worth the trouble. I'll use SD in small batches, when I have only a few adult friends as guests.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 10:47:11 AM by f.montoya »

Online Don Luigi

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #335 on: May 07, 2015, 04:55:00 PM »
I can achieve a kind of "yoghurty" creaminess/melt in your mouth feel with SD in my doughs taste and texture that I was never able to get with CY. Never tried IDY but I might give it a shot soon. I prefer SD over CY but both can yield great results undoubtedly
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Offline Chaze215

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #336 on: May 07, 2015, 09:58:13 PM »
I notice that no one mentions ADY. Is this the red headed stepchild of the yeast world?
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Online David Esq.

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #337 on: May 08, 2015, 04:00:34 AM »
Adding a bit of IDY to a naturally leavened dough makes the crumb a hit lighter and gives a bit more riser when baking bread. I expect there are similar results when making a pizza.

Offline fagilia

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #338 on: May 08, 2015, 08:40:07 AM »
I only had results similar to SD  when mixing yeast and SD for pizza. Fresh yeast was quite different

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #339 on: May 08, 2015, 08:41:27 AM »
I notice that no one mentions ADY. Is this the red headed stepchild of the yeast world?

I don't have a problem with ADY per se. IDY is just so much easier and more reliable.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #340 on: May 08, 2015, 09:06:38 AM »
CY, IDY and SD can produce very similar, if not exactly the same, visual results, depending on your fermentation methods, time and temperatures. Even texture can be identical. Flavor, or more specifically, the aroma, of the cornice (the only part of your pie not dominated by the flavors of the tomato, cheese, oil, etc.) is the only difference.

I agree; I think the recent IDY pies I made (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.1825) look nearly identical to my SD pies.  Notwithstanding, I'd stress that the operative word is "can." Flavor could be all but identical too depending on what you do. Or it could be so obviously different that it would be impossible to miss. I don't think most people who try my pies would realize they are SD. There is no sourness to them. It's just a richer, more complex flavor. I'd also add that you can make really bad pizza with SD too. Like anything else, there is no magic to it.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #341 on: May 08, 2015, 09:11:35 AM »
Adding a bit of IDY to a naturally leavened dough makes the crumb a hit lighter and gives a bit more riser when baking bread. I expect there are similar results when making a pizza.

I tend to doubt that it is a direct result of the IDY per-se but rather more yeast of any sort will tend to result in more fermentation, AOTBE.
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Online David Esq.

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #342 on: May 08, 2015, 11:21:41 AM »
I tend to doubt that it is a direct result of the IDY per-se but rather more yeast of any sort will tend to result in more fermentation, AOTBE.
yes, but if you were to add "more yeast of any sort", all other things would not be equal because leaven is different from grains of yeast.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #343 on: May 08, 2015, 11:52:40 AM »
yes, but if you were to add "more yeast of any sort", all other things would not be equal because leaven is different from grains of yeast.

All other things being time, temp, and the balance of the formula. If you add more yeast and don't change anything else, it's not surprising you get more rise, but you can get to the same place without adding IDY and instead changing other variables such as time or temp. IDY can be used as a crutch in SD, but it's not necessary to achieve optimum crumb.
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Online David Esq.

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #344 on: May 08, 2015, 12:19:39 PM »
All other things being time, temp, and the balance of the formula. If you add more yeast and don't change anything else, it's not surprising you get more rise, but you can get to the same place without adding IDY and instead changing other variables such as time or temp. IDY can be used as a crutch in SD, but it's not necessary to achieve optimum crumb.
I have made world class straight sourdough, straight IDY, and mixed sourdough and IDY bread, not pizza, following the Forkish formulae, and he suggests that adding the IDY gives a lighter airier crumb (I will have to doublecheck his wording) to the loaf.  He does not use the word "optimum", presumably, leaving that up to the individual's own taste.  I can't even say that I know what "optimum" crumb is for me. I know what I don't like, but I have had a wide range of things I really love, which look and feel quite different.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #345 on: May 08, 2015, 12:22:40 PM »
For sure, optimum is largely a matter of personal preference. If IDY helps get you there, by all means you should use it.
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Online David Esq.

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #346 on: May 08, 2015, 12:57:13 PM »
For sure, optimum is largely a matter of personal preference. If IDY helps get you there, by all means you should use it.
Personally, I don't like to have to buy another ingredient to keep in the house.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #347 on: May 08, 2015, 01:04:30 PM »
Ditto, but I actually use quite a bit of IDY. Other than NP, it's all I use for pizza.
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Offline f.montoya

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #348 on: May 10, 2015, 08:51:32 AM »
I agree; I think the recent IDY pies I made (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.1825) look nearly identical to my SD pies.  Notwithstanding, I'd stress that the operative word is "can." Flavor could be all but identical too depending on what you do. Or it could be so obviously different that it would be impossible to miss. I don't think most people who try my pies would realize they are SD. There is no sourness to them. It's just a richer, more complex flavor. I'd also add that you can make really bad pizza with SD too. Like anything else, there is no magic to it.

I think a lot of what you hit on here is of my sentiment when people ask my advice(on my YouTube channel). I do disagree with the "operative word being "can". I think the operative words are "should GET to that point first". I recommend IDY for beginners because jumping into poolishes, starters, and cake yeasts represent a lot of additional variables that they don't need, and wouldn't know how to manipulate to troubleshoot, especially since they haven't mastered basic dough management yet. Instant Dry Yeast is one "consistent" part of dough-making that should be adopted first, and mastered, IMHO, to the degree of maximizing it's flavor producing and fermenting results, before moving on to other leavening products.

If anything, my previous post was tried to convey this. "Craig's" recipe will simply not work for the average newbie if the basics of dough making are not, to some degree, brought to a fairly good level of competency first. In my opinion, one has to get  the consistency of IDY to work every time to a high level. Then experiment with Sour Dough or other leaveners (with a notebook handy) after that.

Craig, if you disagree, say so. :)

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #349 on: May 10, 2015, 09:04:45 AM »
No. Nothing I disagree with. I didn't understand what you were trying to say the first time. I do now.
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