Author Topic: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm  (Read 859 times)

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« on: January 02, 2015, 09:55:32 AM »
Hi NP guys..

I could use some advice/input as I begin trying Neopolitan pies on my BS..So far, I'm not liking what I'm making. Here's recipe of first try

300 gms OO flour (Anna flour..what I had available)
.625 gms IDY   0.1%
4.375 ms salt   1.45%
186 gms water 70F     62%

After a small amount of hand--kneading, 3 stretch/folds then  bulk for 29.5 hours at 64F followed by 5-6 hours balled at RT of 65F, the to CF at 35F

First bake was after CF for 36 hours

Brought DB to RT of 63 for 3 hours before baking. Then launched in BS at about 830, bake was   about 90 seconds, maybe less?   

Nice leoparding, very good OS, but very soft and flavor extremely mild..too mild for me, after being used to long CF NY doughs with lots of complex flavors, not to mention great chew.

Tried second bake this morning..more time at lower temps per advice from Bob and Jonas..This dough had been CF for 106 hours, then counter RT for two hours  before baking. Launch temp approx 760, bake time 3.5 minutes  (this is no longer NP time is that right---Did i essentially make an NY pie with NP dough?). Oven spring less than first time, chew and flavor better, though maybe a little tough and the flavor still didn't touch my NY pies.

So...I'm thinking what next? Do I try doing the 5-ish day CF and then going back to a hotter,faster bake..or will the Neo 00 dough not respond well to this? . Or...should I mix another flour along  with the 00 ( I was thinking BF, but I see TXCraig says to use AP flour at these higher temps..right? (why?) .  Or, and maybe this is heresy here, is it just possible that NP style is too soft and mild-tasting for me..or am I missing an important point.? I'm happy to experiment, just a little in need of direction to turn on this one.   ( I know Ischia starter will change  flavor soome , but I should be able to get good NP results with IDY, yes?0

Thanks!

Online mitchjg

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2015, 10:13:36 AM »
A few comments:

Pictures help a lot.  Seeing the pie aids in diagnosing areas of positives and improvement. 

Anna flour should be fine.  See this very nice pie, etc.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31167.0

Your salt level is very low for Neapolitan pie.  It is much more typically between 2 and 3% and usually/often on the high end of the range.

If the crumb is light and pillowy, that is a good thing.  Maybe you are not used to it (it was not what you expected), maybe you do to like it.

Super long ferments like you are attempting are not the norm for Neapolitan.  I do not think the flour will like that, especially with such low salt levels.

00 flour at lower temperatures for 3.5 minutes does not work well - it will be tough, just as you experienced.

It sounds like (really hard to know here) that you want a Neapolitan that is really a NY? 

- Mitch
Mitch

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2015, 10:34:11 AM »
Thanks Mitch---Well, you know us Jersey Pie Boys are a lot closer to NYC than to Naples :D

Yes, that's a nice looking pie you showed ..I have no photos, but the first one I mentioned looked pretty good..But as you suggest, may just not be my taste. I wasn't crazy about the pies we had this summer at Paulie Gees and I guess those are totally NP

Yes, pie #2 was pretty tough..may have to try again with the 00 and bump the salt a bit. So the timing on the first pie made more sense..or should I not have even done the 36 hour CF..but timed just to cook from RT?

Online mitchjg

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2015, 10:45:52 AM »
RT is the more common way to go with Neapolitan.  If you use Craig's chart described in this thread, it will help you with the amount of yeast to use: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.0.html

If you want to CF, it should be fine but I would not go so long.  Let's say 48 hours at the most.

I was not exactly sure about your last comment/question - so, just in case - if you bake at temperatures that will cause the pie to take 3 1/2 minutes with 00 flour, it will be tough.  It is not likely that you will find a way out of that.


Good luck, keep us posted!

Mitch

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2015, 11:04:58 AM »
Mitch, as I  re-read my last question I think I may have had my head inside the BS too long and my brain melted  :). What I was attempting to  ask was if I shouldn't have done any CF at all but you've since answered that. Thanks!

Online mitchjg

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2015, 12:43:42 PM »
Mitch, as I  re-read my last question I think I may have had my head inside the BS too long and my brain melted  :). What I was attempting to  ask was if I shouldn't have done any CF at all but you've since answered that. Thanks!

You bet.  I do not think you will break the law if you CF.  Many do, many don't.  On one hand, top experts in the forum, like Craig an Omid, do not CF for a Neapolitan.  On the other hand, Tony Gemignani's recipe in his new book does call for a CF and I have seen several here in the forum. 

Try it (again) with no CF - it is the more traditional way.  I think you will need to discover if you like Neapolitan in the first place.  My wife and I grew up (questionable if I have grown up, however  8) ) on NY pizza and so, to us, that was pizza.  The first Neapolitan we had was "all wrong."   Now, when I give my wife a choice ("what kind of pizza you want this week?") she says Neapolitan quite often.

Keep us posted!
Mitch

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2015, 12:49:06 PM »
When I tried my formula with IDY a couple weeks ago, I didn't CF. I kept it at ~60F mostly because I wanted to test my yeast chart and have an answer I could trust when people asked about subbing IDY for SD. If I was going to make NP with IDY (or CY if I could get it) on a regular basis, I would test it both ways (CF and RT) and see which I like better.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with doing CF with baker's yeast. SD is a different story.
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2015, 05:05:05 PM »
Thanks Mitch and Craig--I really appreciate it. I went straight to Craig's chart and mixed another batch to test. Teeniest bit of yeast for a 30 hour RT ferment. Here's where I'm a tiny bit unsure of the process. Should this 30 hours include bulk time and time after balls are made. Or  is it 30 hours bulk, then ball and continue at RT for X amount of time? I'm thinking it's 30 total...and if that's the case, then when should the dough stop being bulk fermented and balled?

Then after the RT fermentation is complete can the DBs be moved to the cold for a nap--like a 35F nap as I do with my NY dough (though as suggested, for a shorter stay)? Or not a good idea??

This test has two DB's so I was thinking I try baking  one without CF and one with, say 48 hours (post-RT ferment time)?

 




Online mitchjg

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2015, 05:12:39 PM »
Craig made the chart, etc. - so he may correct me if I miss something.

The timing should be from when the yeast hits the flour and water to when you bake.  The yeast does not know much about what you are up to, balling, mixing, etc.  It knows it has food and it is eating and multiplying.

Sure, you can CF after the room temperature ferment.  But, remember the temperature change is not instantaneous.  It can take a few hours for the temperature to get down from room temperature to 35 and it is still fermenting along the way.  And, even at 35 it is still fermenting, albeit much more slowly. 

So, if you have 2 dough balls side by side, same yeast and same RT ferment regimen - but one of them is also cold fermented for a period of time will not be the same.  The one with the subsequent CF will be more developed, etc.

Therefore, I would suggest that you take the CF into account with less yeast.  You can actually use the chart to get a handle on that, too.

Make sense?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 07:43:25 PM by mitchjg »
Mitch

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2015, 07:05:17 PM »
Mitch knows this as well or better than I do. All I would add is a reminder that the chart is only a starting point. There are so many variables given everyone's unique situation. Try it, keep notes, make corrections, repeat. You will get there. It takes effort, but it is worth it.
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2015, 08:53:28 PM »
Thanks Craig and Mitch---I think I've got the concept   Actually I think I may have cut the yeast back a bit too much on this new batch ...I had good fermentation (did I? see below)  on the last batch with .1 % yeast and a total of 35 hours RT fermentation before going to CF.    But the chart only calls for 14 or 15 hours at an RT of about 64 degrees  So I now realize   extrapolating my current .03 % IDY, I may well need 80 hours. Or do I?? Wondering why I am so "off the chart"  Am  I over-fermented and don't know it?  Handling and results don't seem to show that  I am...sorry np pix, but it does look like I'm in the ballpark.

Anyway, thanks again..I 'm on the path. :)

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 03:47:06 PM »
So...Just made the first DB from my next NP batch. Similar to recipe at beginning of post but I upped the salt per Mitch. As noted my somewhere in above entries my current  IDY was at .03 % and my guess of fermentation time was close. I consulted Craig's  chart and I think I needed a fair amount more time than it called for..not sure why..But I used RT ferment only on this ball. The dough temp was during fermentation was less than the room temp indicated, so my working temp was 60 degrees..stayed pretty constant whenever i checked. I baked at just past 72 hours total RT time (having balled at 45 hours)   No photo because I burned the center (whoops--stretched it a bit too thin, I think) Otherwise, looked pretty good, nice leoparding, decent but not impressive OS, nice chew, zero crunch. Approximately 90 secs on BS at about 825-850. Center very wet, partially I guess since I made so thin.  So I think it was mainly successful.

The second ball is now in fridge for a couple of days to see what effect this has on flavor and texture  (CF began at 72 hour RT mark) .

But, and I'm sorry to admit this, I didn't care much for the  flavor and texture. Having had an NP at Paulie Gee's, obviously a leading, famous place that is known for great NP's, and having thought, "This is it?"  I may just not be an NP guy. Maybe I should try doing a 50-50  mix of 00 and AP or BF and give that a try. Would the bake temps also  be  then, also between NP and NY, ie somewhere in the mid 700 range on the BS?  And per Capt Bob, would the Caputo Metro   be a clearly better choice for this hybrid, or might it also work well with regular 00 flour?

Thanks!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2015, 04:04:23 PM »
You certainly wouldn't be the firs person to not love NP. My wife likes my NY and DS both better than my NP.

I would suggest reading Chau's (Jackie Tran) NY-NP hybrid posts such as this:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14201.0.html
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2015, 05:12:11 PM »
Thanks Craig--that's great..Chau does amazing pies, been seeing his work since I came here. I'll dig into that thread. Meanwhile, very glad I tried the NP with your and Mitch's notes ...All part of the discovery, plus I still have the CF version of this dough to try.  Quick aside, my long-suffering (and possibly pizza over-saturated)  wife on seeing my very first NP attempt on the table last week., exclaimed, " Oooh, leoparding! "

Online mitchjg

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2015, 05:34:00 PM »
Another thread you may want to read through is "How to get rid of the water" (forget the title)

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.0.html

Brian Spangler of Apizza Scholls is well renowned and he shares a lot of his recipe information.  It is more New Yorky, uses a poolish and is baked at about 700. 

In terms of flour, you can do a lot of different things, 50/50 High gluten/00, 100% KAAP, 100% KABF, etc.  Don't obsess too much on that - just try a few pies at around 700 / around 3 minutes and see what you like there. 

No sugar.

It is where I do most of my pies.  I think my oven likes being at 700 much better than 800 +.  I have to work hard feeding wood and diddling around to keep my temps in the 800s but I have much less effort and much more room for error around 700.  But, that is me.  YMMV.

Good luck.
Mitch

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2015, 07:18:54 PM »
Thanks Mitch--I've read some of Brian's notes and tried (and loved) his poolish pizza in  the home oven on steel..Sp will read again  now that I have the BS  for hotter bakes.  I've been to Scholl's by the way, and it's every bit as good as they say. Thanks for your help!

Offline Neopolitan

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2015, 12:16:40 AM »
But,
Pics might enhance this conversationele in the dark 8)

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Early Neopolitan attempts..hmmm
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2015, 12:26:56 AM »
Ah, true.Next time I'll make some photos  to make it more complete,


 

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