Author Topic: Neapolitan dough help  (Read 6549 times)

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Offline hodgey1

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2015, 09:20:48 PM »
That's all interesting, so it would make sense then that the dough maybe a little less tender because of the higher protein found in the red?
CORRECTION

That's all interesting, so it would make sense then that the dough maybe a little less tender because of the higher protein found in Caputo "Chef's flour"?


Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2015, 10:30:26 PM »
CORRECTION

That's all interesting, so it would make sense then that the dough maybe a little less tender because of the higher protein found in Caputo "Chef's flour"?

It makes sense to me...
My attempts with the Chefs flour did not have the tenderness that I was looking for.

But I also do not get 90 sec or less bake times on the Blackstone right now, so that's probably a factor. I'd like to get some of the Pizzeria to compare.
Charles

Offline sub

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #127 on: July 16, 2015, 02:23:17 AM »
Salvo's brothers and Gino Sorbillo always recommend to use a medium strength flour for neapolitan pizza (W around 240)

http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/pizzeria-fratelli-salvo-impasto-e-impasto-ecco-le-sperimentazioni/63228/
http://domanieunaltroforno.it/blog/come-una-pizza.html
http://www.gamberorosso.it/component/k2/item/1017991-professione-pizzaiolo-imparare-i-segreti-della-pizza-con-ciro-salvo

Stronger flours can absorb more water, with the 1kg red 00 Chef's Flour (W 300/320) use a hydration between 65 to 70%.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 02:27:08 AM by sub »

Offline Pab

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #128 on: July 16, 2015, 04:10:47 AM »
What would you say to adding lard to the dough? i have seen some excellent results with lard added.

Would it make it creamier,tastier or increase charring?

I`m intrigued on what peoples views or experience on this.

Regards

Pab.

Offline David Esq.

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Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #129 on: July 16, 2015, 05:43:33 AM »
Pab, people are quite orderly on this forum.  If you ask questions about adding an ingredient that doesn't belong in a pie, it belongs in another thread.  Lard is not used in Neapolitan dough. So, while adding lard might yield a pie that is better or worse, it won't be a Neapolitan pie and thus is not an appropriate question of this subforum. Perhaps that question can be discussed in a general pizza making sub forum where people will go if they feel like answering general questions regarding "other" pizzas.

At first this may seem like an overly purist approach to things but if you look at it from the perspective of those who have absolutely no interest in discussing anything other than the very specific sub forum topic they are in, you will see that it is an overly purist approach to things. But, it also keeps people from getting into arguments about things they are passionate about.

Personally, I'd never add lard to anything. Coconut oil is another matter. And refined coconut oil if you want no added flavor.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 05:46:21 AM by David Esq. »

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #130 on: July 16, 2015, 06:30:14 AM »
Really? Still? Maybe your thoughts about all this belong in their own separate thread where they can be appropriately debated. Or not.

Somehow Chris' thread doesn't seem like the right place to air these gripes.

At least, not to me.

Offline deb415611

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2015, 06:34:02 AM »
Really? Still? Maybe your thoughts about all this belong in their own separate thread where they can be appropriately debated. Or not.

Somehow Chris' thread doesn't seem like the right place to air these gripes.

At least, not to me.

I agree
Deb

Offline hodgey1

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #132 on: July 16, 2015, 07:30:32 AM »
Peace, Love and Supreme Happiness  ;D

Getting back on track........ I bought an entire case "10-1kg bags" of the Caputo 00 Chef's flour last fall after reading that there was no difference between it and the bags marked "Pizzeria Flour". So, without making too much fur fly here, I am going to adjust the Chef's flour protein down a bit by adding some AP to it and up my hydration and eat the outcome. Once I've used up the 8 or so KG of Chef's flour I have left I will make a trip to Penn Mac and purchase the correct flour. Mean time, this I'm sure will be another in a long list of learning experiences in my continued pizza journey. ;D   The good thing about this journey is the mistakes are still some awesome eats! I've been making better pizza at my home for the last 10 or so years, than 99.9% of all pizza shops here where I live. Not because I'm a pizza genius, but becasue they are pizza clueless. I grew up on coal fired oven amazing pizza in NJ, nothing here, that can be purchased come even close except my house ;)

Offline schold

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #133 on: July 16, 2015, 08:16:21 AM »
What would you say to adding lard to the dough?

Don't.
Cooking is not a recipe, it's a philosophy - unless it's pastry, then it's chemistry.

- Marco Pierre White


Offline David Esq.

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #134 on: July 16, 2015, 08:18:17 AM »
For what it is worth, I drain the can almost entirely before blending on low with 2T of olive oil.  But I am not going for a soup consistency.  I did it this way because that is what Forkish said in FSWY--drain the tomatoes in a colander for 10 minutes. 

Offline jim baugh

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #135 on: July 16, 2015, 09:52:59 AM »
I do not know if this helps, just passing on this info regarding flour. Right now we are using Supremo Italiano 00 Pizza Flour I purchased a 55 pound bag from our restaurant supply store. I researched it before the purchase, heck it was there and only 25 bucks for a 55 pound bag, so we got it. We have had great success with it and bake around 70% hydration (including poolish).

Quickly reading a few of the post, no do not use lard unless doing a pan type lower temp oven pie.

Great post and great pies!

Cheers.
Jim Baugh
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #136 on: July 16, 2015, 10:16:52 AM »
For what it is worth, I drain the can almost entirely before blending on low with 2T of olive oil.  But I am not going for a soup consistency.  I did it this way because that is what Forkish said in FSWY--drain the tomatoes in a colander for 10 minutes.

I am unclear why the subject of sauce came up as an item to help hodgey1 on in this thread.  The last time he mentioned sauce as a problem was almost a year ago and Craig gave him guidance (similar regarding the draining). 

"Forkish said in FSWY" is not a particularly sound basis for guidance on matters of pizza, so this caused me concern.  I say this because I have seen examples of the guidance being quite suboptimal before.  For example, he suggests Caputo 00 for the home oven and hopes (although he knows and says this is can be difficult to achieve)  you can get as high as 600 with help from the broiler. 

BTW, his recipe calls for 1.5T of oil, not 2.0.  That seems like a lot, regardless.  I think many/most say the right amount for Neapolitan sauce is zero.  I am not a disciple of the VPN police, so if oil floats your boat, then use it!  But, it just seems like a lot. 

Although it could be OK, using a blender for sauce requires a lot of care so it does not get "pink" from frothing in air.  Minimal time/action is good here.

Bill/SFNW has a great video on Neapolitan sauce if hodgey1 wants more guidance on sauce: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17699.msg171513#msg171513
Mitch

Offline David Esq.

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #137 on: July 16, 2015, 10:29:28 AM »
I am unclear why the subject of sauce came up as an item to help hodgey1 on in this thread.  The last time he mentioned sauce as a problem was almost a year ago and Craig gave him guidance (similar regarding the draining). 

"Forkish said in FSWY" is not a particularly sound basis for guidance on matters of pizza, so this caused me concern.  I say this because I have seen examples of the guidance being quite suboptimal before.  For example, he suggests Caputo 00 for the home oven and hopes (although he knows and says this is can be difficult to achieve)  you can get as high as 600 with help from the broiler. 

BTW, his recipe calls for 1.5T of oil, not 2.0.  That seems like a lot, regardless.  I think many/most say the right amount for Neapolitan sauce is zero.  I am not a disciple of the VPN police, so if oil floats your boat, then use it!  But, it just seems like a lot. 

Although it could be OK, using a blender for sauce requires a lot of care so it does not get "pink" from frothing in air.  Minimal time/action is good here.

Bill/SFNW has a great video on Neapolitan sauce if hodgey1 wants more guidance on sauce: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17699.msg171513#msg171513
Mitch, I suppose that is the inherent danger in having a thread that spans many years over very few pages.  I was merely responding to something I saw on the prior page.  Your everlasting vigilance is appreciated as much as always.

Offline jim baugh

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #138 on: July 16, 2015, 10:59:29 AM »
Please do not shoot me for this sauce \ blender related question.

Ok I am going to throw this out here just for fun. Seriously, only fun regarding the sauce. Question is: Should a blender be used if sticking to authentic Neapolitan Pie??? Anything I have read (VPN articles) always state these things, hand peel and or chushed, or chopped cherry tomatoes. Never a mention of a blender. My guess is back when the Margherita was invented, no electricity so there were no electric blenders. Everything would be hand cut, pressed, squeezed, etc.
I post this in fun. However, hand crushed not blended san marzano’s do have a meatier or more fleshy appearance and texture on the pie. This is probably how it was originally done.
My Italian wife and I are SERIOUS fans of the tomato. The best beefsteaks I have ever had are grown right here in Virginia. So personally, I like a bit more meat of the tomato on the pie. I also usually put way to much sauce on my pies because the marinara is my fav.
Anyway, not to take the topic off of flour, etc.
But I was wondering what the brain trust thought about this. If you are trying to stick to exactly what the original pies were, then would using a blender be acceptable?
Side note: My associate just got back from Naples for over a two week trip. He went to a Neapolitan Pizza party (see pics) with Italian Chef “Enozo” who wrote the Piaaz La Napoletana  book (in Italian only for now). They made a “Night of 100 pies” at this party he went to. From what he said, and the pics I saw, everything, all produce, cheese, etc, was all fresh. The sauce, when used was hand crushed and or made out of sliced tomatoes. So, it does bear to mind,
To blend or not to blend, that is the question. (haha)
Jim Baugh
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Offline David Esq.

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #139 on: July 16, 2015, 11:20:28 AM »
VPN has nothing to do with the original anything. Certainly not anything to do with pre-electricity.

Offline sub

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #140 on: July 16, 2015, 11:21:57 AM »
if you blend it, the sauce will be more liquid and the crushed seeds gives bitterness.

add around 1% of salt and that's it.






Offline jim baugh

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2015, 11:28:01 AM »
Thanks for the reply, since this thread refers to Neapolitan, from what I have read VPN was set up to try to keep the standards of the original Neapolitan Pie. Restaurants (those wishing to adhere to the specs and promote as such)

I was not around when these pies were first made, non of us were. But it does seem only common sense that they would be made under the protocol that was available at the time. That means no electricity. meaning no blenders or mixers (at least electric anyway)

All we do with the sauce is san marzano had crushed, fresh basil, sea salt, fresh oregano, small dash of pepper. Thats it, and it is great stuff as everyone knows.
Jim Baugh
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Offline David Esq.

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2015, 11:34:05 AM »
Thanks for the reply, since this thread refers to Neapolitan, from what I have read VPN was set up to try to keep the standards of the original Neapolitan Pie. Restaurants (those wishing to adhere to the specs and promote as such)

I was not around when these pies were first made, non of us were. But it does seem only common sense that they would be made under the protocol that was available at the time. That means no electricity. meaning no blenders or mixers (at least electric anyway)

All we do with the sauce is san marzano had crushed, fresh basil, sea salt, fresh oregano, small dash of pepper. Thats it, and it is great stuff as everyone knows.
"Mix  the  dough  at  low  speed  for  20  minutes,  until  the  dough  forms  a  single  ball.  To
obtain  the  optimal  dough  consistency...."

Definitely not pre-electric protocol.

Offline David Esq.

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2015, 11:35:21 AM »
Sub, blending definitely makes the sauce more watery if you are starting with a can of tomatoes that includes all of the water that has been in the can.  Not sure that is the case if you drain the water, however.

Offline jim baugh

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2015, 11:38:02 AM »
You got that right David!

It probably would be asking to much to make restaurants not use a blender. Usually they will do 50 pounds at a time. But at home, I no longer use one.
Jim Baugh
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Offline David Esq.

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2015, 11:49:49 AM »
You got that right David!

It probably would be asking to much to make restaurants not use a blender. Usually they will do 50 pounds at a time. But at home, I no longer use one.
I don't use a mixer to mix dough.  But seeing that video, I'll definitely try the sauce with the water kept, after all, it'll make more sauce. 

My concern is that acidic water in a tin can would taste gross. Like canned pineapple juice tastes gross. But if people get good sauce keeping the canned juice, then I'm willing to give it a go.

Offline jim baugh

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2015, 12:32:39 PM »
David, we always sue Cento San Marzano DOP. They are super consistent. I use everything in the can. Just dump it in a bowl, hand crush, add your herbs and sea salt, and that is all we do. It is very simple but the best sauce. For a marinara, I will top it off with fresh tomatoes. Good stuff.
Jim Baugh
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Offline hodgey1

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2015, 12:38:06 PM »
I apologize  :-\,  I think I should have started a new thread when I decide to pick up where I left off with my Neapolitan pizza journey from last fall. Winter came early here and I closed the oven up for the season right after my posts in September. When I started back up this spring I have been concentrating on improvements to my NY style/WFO pizzas mostly because that is what my friends and family love. Now ten months later I am picking back up into Neapolitan pizzas and looking forward to a new challenge let alone a new flavor profile. If the moderator/persons of knowledge think or want, I will begin a new thread?

As far as the sauce goes, I made a comment last year about my sauce being watery and such. That was prior to me being schooled a bit on the characteristics of this pizza on this forum and from my first experience of a quality Neapolitan pizza at a restaurant last week. Reviewing only from memory I'm going to say my first sauces last year were very close to style. The pies I made last weekend, I was very pleased how the sauce turned out. I used La Valle brand whole Italian tomatoes and hand crushed them. I only added a small quantity of EVOO and salt. The sauce turned out great!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2015, 01:12:07 PM »
Chris,

It is up to you whether you should start a new thread. This thread started out as a topic directed to Neapolitan dough. Subsequently, starting at Reply 100 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33353.msg337799#msg337799 , you raised the question of sauce. Under the circumstances, it would be natural for other members to post on both the dough and sauce, as well as related oven issues.

Sometimes members like to press the reset button after they have been away from a given topic for a while, and start the process anew. It's up to you. You can continue here if you'd like or start a new thread. Whatever is more comfortable for you.

Peter

Offline hodgey1

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Re: Neapolitan dough help
« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2015, 02:51:37 PM »
Chris,

It is up to you whether you should start a new thread. This thread started out as a topic directed to Neapolitan dough. Subsequently, starting at Reply 100 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33353.msg337799#msg337799 , you raised the question of sauce. Under the circumstances, it would be natural for other members to post on both the dough and sauce, as well as related oven issues.

Sometimes members like to press the reset button after they have been away from a given topic for a while, and start the process anew. It's up to you. You can continue here if you'd like or start a new thread. Whatever is more comfortable for you.

Peter

Thanks Peter!

Chris