Author Topic: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!  (Read 4608 times)

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Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2011, 08:24:49 PM »
more


Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2011, 08:26:07 PM »
crumbs again...I apologize on the dump...

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2011, 08:30:41 PM »
disaster pie...this is what im having for dinner in about 10 minutes :(

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2011, 08:32:28 PM »
one last post some extra crumb shots from my first blind pie

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2011, 11:20:16 AM »
Peter, as I posted the links to those vids, I did wonder if we actually had any blind or visually impaired pizza makers on the forum.  I'm always amazed at how skillfull folks are who are physically handicapped in some way.  It's ironic to me that "handicapped" people can sometimes perform certain task even better than those who don't have the same physical handicap.   It's a matter of practicing correctly.  To use handicaps as an analogy, baking pizza in the home environment is challenging b/c of the numerous "handicaps" we face with the lack of proper equipment and ingredients.   I have always thought it most difficult to make a great pizza in the home oven and we have so many members who do it seemingly effortlessly.  I'm sure the commercial environment poses it's own challenges as well.

Wu, I think you did a fantastic job considering you did it by eyeballing the ingredients and by feel AND baked it in the home oven.   Sorry if I missed it, but what flour blend are you using lately?  Is it a KABF blended with another weaker flour?

Chau
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 12:20:42 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2011, 12:16:46 PM »
Thanks Chau...It was awesome...Im actually having pizza with someone in louisville tomorrow who has two outdoor pompeii ovens...They want me to bring over some dough share some tricks and generally just have a good time, Im excited. I have never used a wfo before and the anticipation is mounting.  I am currently using a 70+/- Hydration blend of Bouncer HG flour and granoro farnia 00 at around a 60(hg)/40(00)-70/30.  These pies are using roughly 10% starter for a 10/12 hour rise at 75-80 degrees.  This set of experiments has taught me the value of minimal kneading, bulk rising and then careful minimal balling.  I studied naturally risen and tried to use AM techniques when I comes to handling and I think its paying off.  I have also made some tartine inspired blind bread...Pics will be posted in the tartine thread this afternoon.

About the WFO...will my current dough ratios works or will the Bouncer Malted flour burn too quickly(im assuming the wfo is different than the Home oven even though cook times are currently similar).  If so should I just reverse the porportions or go completely 00...Im making the dough tomorrow morning and will be commensing vast amount of research until then...any more help and or comments would be great
Thanks
d

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2011, 12:19:20 PM »
I don't put anything in my dough to assist browning, but I also do not make any changes between WFO dough and kitchen dough.  I would think you will be fine, but you have to work quick with a 90 second pizza.

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2011, 12:22:12 PM »
Awesome...Ill keep that in mind.  Ill continue to do research and maybe even two batches one 00 and one blended, But I am concerned that the high amount of HG flour will cause quick burning.  The pizza in my home oven cook at anywhere from 1.5-2minutes so I know about quick movement...in the home oven atleast.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2011, 12:35:54 PM »
Thanks Chau...It was awesome...Im actually having pizza with someone in louisville tomorrow who has two outdoor pompeii ovens...They want me to bring over some dough share some tricks and generally just have a good time, Im excited. I have never used a wfo before and the anticipation is mounting.  I am currently using a 70+/- Hydration blend of Bouncer HG flour and granoro farnia 00 at around a 60(hg)/40(00)-70/30.  These pies are using roughly 10% starter for a 10/12 hour rise at 75-80 degrees.  This set of experiments has taught me the value of minimal kneading, bulk rising and then careful minimal balling.  I studied naturally risen and tried to use AM techniques when I comes to handling and I think its paying off.  I have also made some tartine inspired blind bread...Pics will be posted in the tartine thread this afternoon.

About the WFO...will my current dough ratios works or will the Bouncer Malted flour burn too quickly(im assuming the wfo is different than the Home oven even though cook times are currently similar).  If so should I just reverse the porportions or go completely 00...Im making the dough tomorrow morning and will be commensing vast amount of research until then...any more help and or comments would be great
Thanks
d

Wu, you are proving to be a much quicker learner than I.   ;D  If you care to know, after an exhaustive year and a half of endless experimenting, I myself have somewhat settled on the same technique.  Moderately high hydration, minimal hand kneading, 24h RT or CF bulk, and minimal/gentle reballing.  

About the WFO, it depends on what temps your friend is baking at and how big his oven is.  If he is baking really hot at 900F+, then you may have some burning issues.  If he also has a lot of room, I'd try baking further from the fire.  Bring your IR thermometer and shoot for a 750-800F on the hearth max if using the same flour.  Look for a cooler spot on the floor.  If he bakes with cooler temps, then you can bake closer to the fire.  

You can also reverse your flour ratios but you may need to drop your hydration by a few % points.  Find out what temps your friend likes to bake out and make dough accordingly.  If he bakes hot, I would make 2 balls of dough of different formulas to see how they react.  The first experience of baking in the WFO is an awesome one.  You'll have a great time.   I still remember how generous Bill was to have me bake a pizza in his oven.   It was a real treat for me.  

Chau


Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2011, 04:55:08 PM »
Thanks tran for the tips. I don't have an ir thermometer and they do t either...all they said was it runs from 800-1000...a very big range that I'm assuming is an assumption. With this said I think I'm going to make 4 balls two of the original blend and then two using just 00, or should I do a 70/30-80/20 blend of 00 hg. Whatever you guys advise I'll do. I know he has two ovens of decent size if this helps. He also has a Woodstone mobile for his business, but I'm sure we aren't using it. They are also openin a woodfired sit down restaurant in a month so I need tO not fall on my face lol so everyones advise is extremely valuable to me at this point. I need reassurance!

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2011, 05:42:36 PM »
David, very nice crumb shots on those pizzas! :)

Looking forward to hearing about your initial exploits with the WFO.

Their 800-1000 mention is likely the range from the oven  (800ish) to the air above the pizza closer to the dome (1000ish) --K

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

parallei

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2011, 06:59:03 PM »
Must be the odd man out :D

I've settled on certain dough weights for the two sizes of pies that I typically make and I always use the scale.  I also always use the dough tools if I want to try something different.  The scale is quick to use and it meets my main criteria of not being another thing to clean! Though I could "eyeball" or feel the right amount of water to add to a given pile of flour, I'm pretty sure I couldn't eyeball the pile of flour needed to make four 12" pies with the TF I like.  For me, the "art" comes in to play after the ingredients are mixed.  That "art" would be dough handling and controlling the fermentation (still working on that!).

Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that folks can do it all by eye and feel.  However, I sure am grateful that the folks who started the journey into pizza making that is reflected in pizzamaking.com recorded there findings in a "scientific" manner.  I'm also glad that folks continue to record and share their recipes using baker percentages.  If they didn't, I'd still be making crappy pies ;D

 

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2011, 04:21:12 PM »
made four 100% 00 dough balls at roughly 65/67% and then made 2 70/30(HG/00) dough balls, their making some pizza as well as some mozz, Its going to be a party!  Im excited to meet these people talk pizza and more importantly what pizza means for our town.  Im charging the good camera so Ill take tons of pictures!

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2011, 05:35:04 PM »
Had the party and It was awesome.  We ended up making around eight pizzas in the wfo.  Made some of the 100% 00 pies and then the Blend with HG and 00 and the HG/00 in my opinion did alot better, not much but there was considerably more lift and the crumb was slightly lighter and this could be because the HG/00 was at around 70/75 HR and the 00 was 65...We had Marniara, Margheritas, and some pizzas with Spicy capicola.  The Mozz. was made that day fresh by them and the sea salt and OO they were using was exquisite...The sea salt was Maldon, but I cant remember the OO brand.  There was also appetizers, consisiting of a rosemary basil focaccia and Then a grape focaccia, which had fennel and grapes in, it was amazing!
Mainly the night was spent taking turns, making pizzas in the oven and filled with constant talk of pizza, ranging from methods to the philosophies that we come to represent.  There pizza was excellent and My pizza was excellent.  We are using different methods that are garnering different results, but both are respectable and when they open up their place in Louisville I will be one of the first people there to critique and make sure nothing is lost, but I'm not worried they have a good concept and good heads on their shoulders.
The night also came with some learning experiences, one being the actual use of the oven, I got a crash course in the utility peel and the methodology surrounding oven maintenance.  One other thing that actually shocked me is that consistently across the board, pie after pie the came out just as they do in the Home oven, looking and tasting very similar...It is both a relief and shocker that I am actually able to achieve somewhat of Neapolitan pizza without huge wood oven.  Granted the home oven somewhat requires more work and is no where near as cool and as soon as I am able to build one you better bet concrete and bricks will be flying, but disparate times call for disparate measures...and I am disparate for good pizza.
Despite making loads of pizzas, there was to much good conversation and well good pizza to stop and take very many photos, but here I what I got,The crumb was great, but not as great as I have gotten from the Home oven and I attribute this to overproofing by an 1.5 or so...We didnt get started until later than I anticipated, but the pizza was Fantastic, hopefully they'll invite me over again soon!

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2011, 05:36:28 PM »
oh forgot to add he is using the plans for pompeii oven from forna bravo website in his pizza oven(42") and then he also has a barrel bread oven, but we didnt fire that up!

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2011, 10:41:48 PM »
Here is another pizza I made "blind".  Though I am amking these pies blind, im trying to keep them as consistant with one another as much as possible, and I the bakes have been staying very similar, fermenting at the same rates, cooking and eating very similar as if I have formed a cohesive repeatable recipe based on the senses alone.  I have been very pleased with these pizzas and the way my oven has been performing, with that said there are a couple of things that didnt turn out quite right...

1-the cheese:  The cheese was actually made by a friend a few days ago and at that point(the day it was made) It was fantastic, flash forward a few days I got rubbery cheese, granted it melted beautifully with only a few burns, better than low moist., worse than the stuff I get fresh made that day at the food coop, but even then the food coop cheese(made fresh in house daily) lasts longer than my friends cheese, perhaps this is because his tends to be slightly drier in general to theirs?
2-The pizzas underskirts were cooked to the girlfriends desire, if It were just for me the pizzas would have been more charred on the bottom, but hey you compromise.
As I said besides these two things the pizzas were great and cooked for about a minute thirty, not too long not too short...but should have went longer for the underskirt, but I would have had the stone hotter to begin with...Anyway here are some pics.

Set 1-Mini 9" pizza for lunch tomorrow and crumb shots of it
Set 2-My 12 pizza, notice lack of sauce girl friend wanted more to dip so I took one for the team...added extra OO to make up for it, underskirt, and crumb

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2011, 10:42:47 PM »
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Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2011, 10:43:46 PM »
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Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2011, 10:47:32 PM »
also to add I experimented with the stretching technique
With the smaller pizzas I stretched them as I normally do not going out really far, making sure there is a large really airy rim. Then for the larger pies, again per girlfriends request, I pressed out the dough further to the edge, sort of eliminating that large emphasized rim.  I dont like this and prefer the large more airy rims...I wont be stretching my dough that way again, what do you guys prefer, Large and Airy or smaller?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2011, 10:56:34 PM »
Wu, I have been a bit busy to respond.   I'm glad you had a good time baking in the WFO.  Maybe it's just me, but  I do see a difference in the crumb between your home oven and the WFO BUT it's not much, which says a lot for your techniques with the dough and baking in the home oven.  

I know you are crazy about your pies which is great.  Lots of members are also crazy about what they are doing and yet they all look so different to me.  I guess we all have different ideals.   I wonder if we got a bunch of us in the same room and made our pies for one another that we couldn't collectively decide what is best?  

As satisfying as my own pies are, I'm leaving the comfort zone in search of something new and possibly better.  Something different from my usual.  In the meantime, I think you are doing a fantastic job given the use of a home oven and hand kneading.  

I think that given time/experience, a wfo, and some experimenting that you will be able to get the 00 flour pies to sing a prettier song but time will tell.

Until then, keep up the good work.

As far as the rim size go, I really go back and forth.  Scott123, says that a thinner rim will puff up more because it has less weight to fight against.  I'm not sure I always get that.  I think other factors also come into play.  If the crust is really good then I often desire more rim.  If it's just okay which is often the case for me, I could care less how thick or thin it is. 

Chau

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2011, 11:13:02 PM »
Your right I do see a difference and remember thinking that the wfo crumbs werent as airy, not denser just the voids were smaller, not just on one pie but all...so it couldnt be a shaping thing, but the difference as you say was minimal and many things like the fact that this dough and starter was mixed at a different place( my parents home as opposed to my apartment) causing a change in temps or the fact that the dough did end up sitting around an hour past what I would consider the optimal time of use...ideal chit-chat, ugh...jk.
About the varying difference between users, I think this is what makes our pie unique from one another, It is noticeable that we all have a set style that is consistently repeated throughout out bakes.  Your crumb and pies are distinguishable from infoodels and his leapording, and from bills pale, but blistered light and feathery crust, to mine.  If we all pumped out the same pies it would be a very boring place, but because of these differences we have a community and something to talk about, we try to learn from one another and apply these difference to our own, see if they work/see if we like them then share our opinions in a land of cookie cutter pies this is non-existant...I couldnt tell you the last time I ordered papa johns sat down and was really like, "well huh this pizza was way better than that pizza, I wonder why?(insert laborious/tedious experiment to solve).

When you say leaving the comfort zone, what do you mean?  What formulas are you going to try and thing radically crazy, I would love to know so perhaps I could try as well.  I have been contemplating longer ferm times, but when I do the crumb seems to suffer...This is why I have settled at 12 hours, but perhaps this is my opportunity to leave the zone...

I would have to say that in all my experience scotts observations havent matched with my baking, I dont know but it seems tried and true for me, but his theory seems logical

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2011, 11:50:14 PM »
Wu, It would be boring if we all made the same pie that's for sure.  You are right, there wouldn't be a sense of learning from one another if we all did the same thing.  What I was getting at, is that I suspect you will be like me any others and change your mind over time about what is great.  Mainly b/c if you are as crazy as the rest of us, you will keep pushing to discover what is unknown to you.   No doubt if we all got in the same room we would be at different places.   By doing so, it would allow us to maybe experience the other levels out there.  

This is because I don't want to keep making the same pies.   Once I feel like I can gain some understanding or consistency, I move the target.  It's just my style and keeps me from getting too bored.  

I'm really going to make a strong effort with CY b/c I (for now) believe there is something there and I want to learn more about it.   I'm also temporarily dropping my hydrations by 5% points or so and will be playing around with more kneading and 00 flour.   I'll still keep somethings the same.   But just b/c I don't see success right away it doesn't mean that it's automatically not as good.  It might be b/c I haven't discovered some truths or learn some things that would make the difference.   I'll post pics soon if I find something new.

Chau
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 10:33:37 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2011, 10:18:25 AM »
It seems as though you are moving the target to what is more consistently done over in naples?  Using CY, lowering HR, and kneading more(perhaps not necessarily more, but using a different technique) seems to be what alot of these people are doing in the videos recently posted.  I look at their dough, these almost stiff pure white balls and have never been able to get this sort of appearance.  Though I have never dropped my HR past 63(ever), maybe this is why.  Its just the lower you go the more crumb will suffer?  When I see people in the youtube videos ball the dough like mozz, I wonder how they are developing enough gluten/air pockets to get a good open crumb.  My lack of prior knowledge about these techniques is very minimal and because of this I dont want to risk the failure, as I only make pizza 1/2 times a week.  If I can find some more info or vids maybe Ill take the dive, but i think I am going to jump out of the 12 hour ferm, and try to either go at least 18, maybe full 24...well see.  I would love to see pics as soon as you do these experiments

scott123

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2011, 03:44:56 AM »
Scott123, says that a thinner rim will puff up more because it has less weight to fight against.  I'm not sure I always get that.  I think other factors also come into play.  If the crust is really good then I often desire more rim.  If it's just okay which is often the case for me, I could care less how thick or thin it is.

I have brought up the weight concept, but it's only part of the story, and probably a small part.  The key component as to why thinner rims end up relatively puffier than thicker rims is water/steam generation. The same amount of water will take far longer to boil in a narrow pot than it will in a wide pot with greater contact with the heat source. A thicker rim will take longer to boil. Slower to boil = less steam generation = less volume.

Water plays a role in melting cheese as well. Too thick of a layer of sauce will slow the sauce from boiling and prevent the cheese from bubbling/melting properly. 

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Forget the scale-Use your eyeball!
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2011, 06:16:01 AM »
Thanks scott for the elaboration, Ill keep experimenting with it see if the results change, my girlfriend like a smaller rim, so maybe one day Ill stretch her pizzas out bake and come to find the rim larger and puffier than mine, this may upset her, but would be a great thing to figure out.


 

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