Author Topic: This afternoon's bake  (Read 10758 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2224
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2011, 06:32:24 AM »
Wow,those look so damn tasty! Love the pies!
 :pizza:

Thank you Bill.

Matt


Online JConk007

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 3585
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2011, 08:27:41 AM »
Matt,
Thanks for the input, I am also a bit confused on the dough. And I dont want to hijack your thread either. peter feel free to move. I would like to see a pic of your dough before and after if you could next time its worth 1000 words. These shots are from a  6 hrs fridge 10 hrs room and 8 hr fridge and then 2 hr garage.  These are 260-275 G balls but expanded quite a bit after the room rise 65% and .2% IDY ? this dough wet  is not for the newbie as soon as you grab (cut it out ) it from the box completley deflates, but it easy to spread with a good amount of bench flour. pizza was just ok, nice rise in the crumb, but wondering  should I do a starter ? or knock down the hydration to 60%ish? Oh yeah you and Dellavechia inspired me to try the Marinara? A Bit of a mess?  I used a truffle oil on that and people really loved it . I will work on it.
appreciate your  help.
John
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 08:35:45 AM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2224
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2011, 09:04:18 AM »
Matt,
Thanks for the input, I am also a bit confused on the dough. And I dont want to hijack your thread either. peter feel free to move. I would like to see a pic of your dough before and after if you could next time its worth 1000 words. These shots are from a  6 hrs fridge 10 hrs room and 8 hr fridge and then 2 hr garage.  These are 260-275 G balls but expanded quite a bit after the room rise 65% and .2% IDY ? this dough wet  is not for the newbie as soon as you grab (cut it out ) it from the box completley deflates, but it easy to spread with a good amount of bench flour. pizza was just ok, nice rise in the crumb, but wondering  should I do a starter ? or knock down the hydration to 60%ish? Oh yeah you and Dellavechia inspired me to try the Marinara? A Bit of a mess?  I used a truffle oil on that and people really loved it . I will work on it.
appreciate your  help.
John

John,
No problem buddy; Great idea actually.  I'll post pictures right after mixing, after 24hours bulk, right after I form the panetti & the panetti just before use.  I use the same dough ball size as you; you will be really surprised on the difference in look.  My dough balls don't puff up at all during the final proof, they are flat & develop a sheen.  The panetti are extremely easy to stretch with zero resistance.  I'll take a crumb shot as well.  My pizza is very thin & soft & there is hardly any dough at all in the cornicone, it's mostly air.  Hope this helps.  BTW: Marinara is my favorite!

Matt

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21184
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2011, 10:00:09 AM »
Craig,

Quite often, the debate between bread and pizza ("pizza is not bread", or vice versa) has to do with the extent of gluten development. On one side is the notion that a dough should be developed (usually through intensive mixing) to full gluten development (this is a commercial bread maker approach); on the other side is the notion that the dough should be slightly underkneaded and let biochemical gluten development do the heavy lifting (this is the Lehmann approach). However, in Marco's case, when he said "pizza is not bread", I believe that it was in the context of using a starter for a Neopolitan dough, and where the distinction between bread and pizza is based on the amount of starter used. The first time that Marco discussed this subject was in his third post after joining this forum in February, 2005, at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679/topicseen.html#msg8679. The pertinent portion of that post (which is actually a good post to read for other reasons) is the following:

Having clarified the above, I can now tell you that the main difference in Naples between Pizza dough and Bread dough made both with CRISCETO (WILD YEAST STARTER) is in the amount of CRISCITO used.
In the pizza dough it has to be minimum, in percentage that vary from 1 to 5% of the water's weight, and it is only needed as fermenting agent, assuring a slow and appropriate fermentation.


Marco subsequently elaborated on the "pizza is not bread" theme at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3153.msg26814/topicseen.html#msg26814. What I believe that Marco was getting at in that post is that when one uses a natural leaven ("Crescito") above 5% of the formula water, you are in preferment territory and the attributes attendant a preferment, such as increased acid production, a more pronounced crust flavor, and strengthening of the dough, come into play, taking the dough away from the pizza realm to the bread realm.

Never a shrinking violet, Marco on at least one occasion railed against the pizzas that Anthony Mangieri made, proclaiming Anthony's pizzas not to be authentic Neapolitan pizzas and based on bread versus pizza principles.

With respect to the epiphany that Matt had in terms of the degree of rising of the dough, I had the same epiphany but, in my case, it was a bit over six years ago. At that time, the forum was in its early stages (with around 500 members) and there were very few members experimenting with using natural leavening systems for pizza dough along the lines that Marco discussed and there was a lot of fumbling around in the dark as we were trying to learn (although Bill/SFNM was in the forefront of using the Caputo flour and, I believe, natural leavening). I believe my first attempt at a naturally leavened dough according to Marco's instructions was in Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9012.html#msg9012. In that post, I mentioned that the dough hardly rose at all. I thought that perhaps it was a weak starter that I was using but I had recalled that Marco said not to expect much rise in the dough, as one might experience, for example, with other leavening systems. My next experiment along the same lines was described at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9075.html#msg9075. In that post, I again commented on the lack of rise in the dough. In retrospect, maybe there was some rise but not enough to be perceptible visually. Eventually, other members joined the fray and started producing stellar Neapolitan style, naturally-leavened pizzas and, as they say, the rest is history. One of those members was Peter Taylor, who went on to develop the Raquel dough and, eventually, to start his own restaurant where he uses a naturally leavened dough.

My last experiments with a Marco style dough in the abovereferenced thread were described starting with Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807. I often get requests from members via PM for a dough formulation and instructions for making a Neapolitan-style pizza in a standard, unmodified home oven, and I refer them to Reply 94 for that purpose.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 01:15:26 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10616
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2011, 12:15:35 PM »
Thanks Matt and Pete.

That's were I thought you were headed with those comments but wanted to be sure and I think it is very important. I've observed the same things. Since working on my Reverse Engineering UPN project (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.0.html) in which the [Ischia] starter is about 25% of the total dough weight, I've steadily moved toward less and less starter (crisceto). After experimenting with the UPN formulation, I was using about 2% by flour weight.

In my convergence thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12371.0.html), I talked about 1.7% [Ischia] starter by flour weight (2.7% water weight). Today, my starter is about 0.75% - 1.0% of the flour weight (1.2-1.5% of the water weight) as seen in the various Mohicans posts.

I think both (high and low starter quantity) have a place and they are very different. My UPN dough is much more sour, and sometimes I prefer that. Other times I want that super-tender crust that just melts in your mouth that I get from the tiny starter quantity and long ferment. I'm also working my dough less and less each time and am excited about those results as well.

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline pizzablogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1334
  • Location: Baltimore
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2011, 01:07:01 PM »
Peter, I believe you may have been potentially referring to commercial, industrial scale bread making when mentioning that gluten should be fully developed through intensive mixing. Artisan bread baking usually utilizes shorter mix times and lets gluten complete its development during fermentation.

Matthew, your pies look delicious.......excellent bake!

Yes, the Caputo does not really rise much at all with a long fermentation using small amounts of crisceto. Mine do increase slightly in volume, but it is a slight lateral expansion more than a vertical lift....likely a sign of increased extensibility rather than real volume expansion.

One of life's great tactile experiences is taking a proofed dough ball out for shaping it and having it feel like a feather light air pillow in your hands!
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21184
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2011, 01:18:07 PM »
In my convergence thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12371.0.html), I talked about 1.7% [Ischia] starter by flour weight (2.7% water weight). Today, my starter is about 0.75% - 1.0% of the flour weight (1.2-1.5% of the water weight) as seen in the various Mohicans posts.


Craig,

That is what I recall because I remembered that you were using Marco levels of starter. I figured that you would provide chapter and verse.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21184
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2011, 01:27:37 PM »
Peter, I believe you may have been potentially referring to commercial, industrial scale bread making when mentioning that gluten should be fully developed through intensive mixing. Artisan bread baking usually utilizes shorter mix times and lets gluten complete its development during fermentation.

K,

You are partly correct and, to avoid confusion, I went back and amended my post. However, at the time I was thinking of people like Peter Reinhart, Alton Brown and Jeffrey Steingarten who have advocated developing the gluten structure enough to pass the windowpane test up front. More recently, as noted by John Fazzari elsewhere on the forum, Peter Reinhart has not been advocating full gluten development to the stage of passing the windowpane test up front. I have no idea as to why he has moved on that point. However, his doughs still tend to be high in hydration, which usually calls for mutiple stretch and folds, etc., during which I suppose the gluten structure is strengthened from what I have read in the Reinhart threads.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6960
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2011, 02:10:22 PM »
Matt, I am really curious to see the pre and post fermentation pics as well. 

Craig, on my previous bake, I made one of my typical doughs 75/25 (oo/hg) with 1.2% active ischia starter.  It was fermented at room temps of 75F for about 22h.   I proofed 4 balls up at about 240gm each in a small pyrex dish.  They expanded quite a bit, but I did note that the fermentation bubbles were tiny.  I wonder what is different about the 2 fermentation processes that some doughs will expand a lot and others not given the same starter culture and a long room temp fermentation. 

The only time I have notice that my doughs not expand much is when I do a minimal knead.  I think if the gluten is underdeveloped, it's possible for the dough to ferment and not expand much but still I usually see 50% expansion as oppose to a doubling or beyond.   The idea that a dough is fermenting and not expanding seems odd as fermentation does produce gas bubbles right? 

Matt some of my best crusts, the ones that are mostly air like you describe have been doughs that have exhibit about 50% rise during the proofing stage.  For awhile I was always looking to proof dough up high thinking this would equate to a bigger airier rim, but not always so. 

Sorry don't mean to hijack, but really curious about the idea of a no rise dough.  Can someone explain the science to me?

Chau


Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2224
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2011, 02:24:33 PM »

The only time I have notice that my doughs not expand much is when I do a minimal knead.  I think if the gluten is underdeveloped, it's possible for the dough to ferment and not expand much but still I usually see 50% expansion as oppose to a doubling or beyond.   

Matt some of my best crusts, the ones that are mostly air like you describe have been doughs that have exhibit about 50% rise during the proofing stage.  For awhile I was always looking to proof dough up high thinking this would equate to a bigger airier rim, but not always so. 


Chau



My mix time is about 10 minutes which brings me in between moderate to full gluten development; not enough to windowpane.  The amount of air in the cornicone is a result of the stretching method.  I know exactly what your referring to; it is much different in this dough in that you don't see any air in the cornicone until it hits the hearth & begins to expand.
How do you define a fully active culture?

Matt


Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2224
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2011, 02:27:23 PM »


Matthew, your pies look delicious.......excellent bake!

Yes, the Caputo does not really rise much at all with a long fermentation using small amounts of crisceto. Mine do increase slightly in volume, but it is a slight lateral expansion more than a vertical lift....likely a sign of increased extensibility rather than real volume expansion.

One of life's great tactile experiences is taking a proofed dough ball out for shaping it and having it feel like a feather light air pillow in your hands!

Thanks K!  I agree.  This time I proofed in a 6qt round Cambro container & got barely a 1/4".

Matt

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10616
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2011, 04:15:35 PM »
Matt,

What temperature are you fermenting at?

Thanks,
Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2224
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2011, 04:33:45 PM »
Matt,

What temperature are you fermenting at?

Thanks,
Craig

64-68 degrees

Matt


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6960
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2011, 04:44:22 PM »
My mix time is about 10 minutes which brings me in between moderate to full gluten development; not enough to windowpane.  The amount of air in the cornicone is a result of the stretching method.  I know exactly what your referring to; it is much different in this dough in that you don't see any air in the cornicone until it hits the hearth & begins to expand.
How do you define a fully active culture?

Matt

Matt I use a 100% hydrated starter with 50/50 water and AP flour measured out on the scale.  When the starter domes and begins to receed in the center and sometimes the edges, it is fully active (mature) and beginning into overmaturation.  Still floats at this point, but often times I will also use it as it is in the process of doming.

I also taste the raw starters at different stages to note the acid formation.

Chau
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 04:46:21 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline pizzablogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1334
  • Location: Baltimore
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2011, 05:11:28 PM »
When the starter domes and begins to recede in the center and sometimes the edges, it is fully active (mature) and beginning into overmaturation.  
Chau

I concur.....that's when I ideally (given the time constraints of family, work, life, etc) use my culture as well.

I think the "no rise" fermentation is something specific to pizza doughs made with very small amounts of sourdough and 100% Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. In reality there has to be some volume expansion, but it is very minimal.

I would imagine that other flours which are not malted and have lower amylase enzyme activity like Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour would produce a similar fermentation characteristic.

Even if I cut in a small amount of malted flour, like KABF or KAAP, when I am low on Caputo, the volume expansion is completely different. I've mixed 15% KABF into the formula once and the volume expansion, while not dramatically so, was noticeably different than the 100% Caputo formulated dough. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6960
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2011, 05:21:53 PM »
That makes sense Kelly.  I add a bit of the HG flour for strength to help build gluten and tent up the air bubbles.  At least that is the idea right or wrong.  I also get a bit more browning and a bit of added crunch to the rim which I like.    

When I visited POMO in AZ, I noted that their caputo pizzeria balls also did not rise at all but did flatten out in their proofing trays.  I don't have a picture of the balls before but I'll see if it's in a video I took.  Here is the picture of the balls after they have fermented.  They don't appear to have "risen" but they do flatten out and there is some volume expansion, it just may be more difficult to quantify.   These also started out at your typical VPN size of 260gm.

Here's a video of Pizzaiolo Matteo balling dough.  This man was super nice and generous letting me back into their kitchen.  He has mad skills.  The video is a bit grainy but you can see the size of the ball prior to proofing. 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NzDJuykrqU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NzDJuykrqU</a>

Chau
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 05:48:16 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2224
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2011, 05:31:57 PM »

Thanks Chau & K.  There are so many different ways of refreshing/proofing/using starters that I'm alway's interested in other perspectives.  God knows I've tried every method known to man & at the end I ended up settling on the way that I did it on day 1 when I knew nothing about them.  Go figure!

Matt
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 06:07:14 PM by Matthew »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6960
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2011, 05:52:05 PM »
Okay video is up.   How true Matt.   I feel as though I have tried everything and still searching.   If anyone has discovered the holy grail of NP pizza, I would think you are one of the few.  I would really be interested in seeing some crumb shots as well if you have any.  Thanks for all your help and contributions.

Chau

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2224
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2011, 06:11:39 PM »
Okay video is up.   How true Matt.   I feel as though I have tried everything and still searching.   If anyone has discovered the holy grail of NP pizza, I would think you are one of the few.  I would really be interested in seeing some crumb shots as well if you have any.  Thanks for all your help and contributions.

Chau

Thanks Chau, the feeling is mutual.  I didn't take any crumb shots but will this weekend.   

Matt

Online JConk007

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 3585
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2011, 08:29:21 PM »
Great video . Yeah mad  skills!  Scale-  nah who needs it He probably does more balls in 1 day than I have done in my entire pizza life . 1st off,  I noticed my dough is so wet I dont thing I could do that with out sticking all over the place. What do you think the hydration is there ?  I am looking to get a dough more like the Keste and A mano dough spread not too much rise and workable. They say 100% caputo but my dough is also whiter?
Back to Amano for me I have a few more questions for the boys.  ??? Thanks for sharing.
John
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 08:31:19 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com


 

pizzapan