Author Topic: This afternoon's bake  (Read 15082 times)

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Offline wheelman

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2011, 07:26:42 AM »
matt, can't wait to hear about that block of cheese.  this is a great thread, and another branch in the trail to explore.  I'm definately going to work on longer fermentation times and lower starter percentage.  here's my dough from this weekend. it's 2% of flower ischea, 65% hydration, 10 hr preferment, 12 hr bulk and 4 hr ball.  the balls don't grow much but they did seem a little over fermented and somewhat weaker than i'm used to (with less time in bulk). very airy though to open.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2011, 09:33:02 AM »
it's 2% of flower ischea

wheelman,

Just a note to remind you that, unlike in the U.S., where the ingredients are specified with respect to the weight of flour, in Naples the ingredients are specified with respect to the weight of water. I occasionally slipped on that and Marco (pizzanapoletana) corrected me. In Naples, they start with a fixed amount of water and then just add the amount of flour (and other ingredients) to achieve the desired consistency.

Peter

Offline wheelman

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2011, 10:23:58 AM »
thanks Peter,

that's an important point when trying to compare results.  i should have said 3% of the water weight in starter.  i also failed to mention my proofing temps.  - room temp for the preferment and 57F for bulk and ball. 
bill

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2011, 11:25:47 AM »
@wucactus1:  I'm still a beginner, but I will say that it wouldn't surprise me that UPN handles his dough more like bread than traditional Neo dough - my experience of Mangieri's pizza is that it was extremely bread-like and chewy, and much drier than traditional Neapolitan crust.  I'm sure the experts will address the why's and how's.

This was also my observation a few years ago at his EV location (breadlike and chewy, not so much drier - but one of the most flavorful - and sour - crusts I've tried). Based on my experience trying to recreate his recipe and workflow (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.0.html), I think it it is the result of the very large amount of starter used. It is a tradeoff between flavor and texture/tenderness. This is consistant with Matt's and other's comments in this thread about the differences between bread and pizza.

Craig
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2011, 11:57:10 AM »
Guys,

Another Marco tidbit that might be useful is where he said that for pizza he kept his Crescito (starter) in a solid state (65-70% hydration), at Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg12498/topicseen.html#msg12498.

Peter

Offline wucactus1

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2011, 11:57:26 AM »
thats interesting...Lately I have been doing the eyeball pies...and go in that order...Using water and then matching the flour mixing and stopping, mixing and stoppinguntil the feel I want is reached.  Its good to know my methodology is somewhat authentic, even if Im not using the right oven.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2011, 01:37:42 PM »
Guys,

Another Marco tidbit that might be useful is where he said that for pizza he kept his Crescito (starter) in a solid state (65-70% hydration), at Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg12498/topicseen.html#msg12498.

Peter

Good link Peter.

For Neapolitan pizzas, I have a separate stater that is kept at 60% hydration. I know that Toby has used starters maintained in the 50's for flavor profile reasons.

 I know BillSFNM keeps his starter around the same hydro as his finished formula for simplicity of calculation.
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline ponzu

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2011, 01:45:01 PM »
Guys,

Another Marco tidbit that might be useful is where he said that for pizza he kept his Crescito (starter) in a solid state (65-70% hydration), at Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg12498/topicseen.html#msg12498.

Peter

Pete-za,

If that's 70 % hydration by total starter weight as I believe is the normal method for calculating starter hydration, isn't that an exceptionally liquid starter?

AZ

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2011, 02:01:10 PM »
Alexi,

I believe Marco intended the hydration to be the traditional calculation of the weight of the starter water divided by the weight of the starter flour. So, for example, if you had 100 grams of flour for your starter, you would need 65-70 grams of water. That is not an exceptionally liquid starter. A poolish, which is quite liquid, has equal weights of flour and water and, hence, a hydration of 100%.

Peter


Offline ponzu

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2011, 02:06:10 PM »
Alexi,

I believe Marco intended the hydration to be the traditional calculation of the weight of the starter water divided by the weight of the starter flour. So, for example, if you had 100 grams of flour for your starter, you would need 65-70 grams of water. That is not an exceptionally liquid starter. A poolish, which is quite liquid, has equal weights of flour and water and, hence, a hydration of 100%.

Peter

Got it.  so about 40% hydration as calculated in the preferment calculator.

AZ

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2011, 02:15:56 PM »
Alexi,

That is correct. My recollection is that it was easier or more efficient to use percent of water rather than the classic hydration number to do the calculations for the preferment dough calculating tool.

Peter

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2011, 04:48:17 PM »
This picture is of a dough that barley rose. I forget what the hydration and how long the fermentation was but the starter was 5% of water and 100% caputo. It was probably around 60% hydration and 24hr fermentation. Everytime I'd use the starter it would barely rise which kind of worried me. Then I read the posts Peter linked early of Marco saying that you shouldn't expect to much rise.

thats interesting...Lately I have been doing the eyeball pies...and go in that order...Using water and then matching the flour mixing and stopping, mixing and stoppinguntil the feel I want is reached.  Its good to know my methodology is somewhat authentic, even if Im not using the right oven.

For speed mainly. If your balling as much dough as they have to; time is money. You can get a lot of dough balls done fast the way they do it at full speed. Chau's video is great because you can see him at full speed.


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2011, 06:12:43 PM »
As far as VPN type dough balling, of which Chau linked to an excellent video, this is perhaps the definative video I have seen on the topic.

The technique is pretty much perfectly illustrated and, interestingly, even though the video is not in English (Japanese), it is understandable none the less.

Somewhat long video, but the multiple angles of the hand forming and tearing off of the ball, including slower motion of him doing it with just his hands (no ball) so you can see the motion and finger positioning, is very helpful indeed.

I've sweated this guys entire video series far too many times, but highly informative!

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2011, 10:23:22 PM »
In re-reading this thread, it is clear that Matt is following the classic Marco method. On the matter of knead time, my recollection is that Marco disagreed with the idea of kneading the dough for 20 to 30 minutes, as some of the VPN instructions apparently called for. See, for example, Marco's famous "crap" post at Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13378.html#msg13378. Another critical component to Marco's method was using a fermentation temperature of 18-20 degrees C, or 64.4-68 degrees F, which is roughly the range that Matt used. What I did not think to ask Matt earlier is whether he was using a temperature control unit or whether he was using a room temperature of 18-20 degrees C. If the fermentation temperature is much higher than the range that Marco advocated, then it would be natural to see a significantly greater rise, just as would occur with commercial yeast. In this respect, I believe that K (pizzablogger) correctly stated the case.

There is still one mystery that has never been answered, and that is the significance of the bulk room temperature rise before division of the bulk dough into individual pieces. Marco always dodged and skirted that issue because I believed he wanted to reserve that discussion for the book that he was planning to write but which never did materialize. There have been attempts by the members, me included, to try to explain the significance of the bulk rise, but, without Marco's affirmation, we could not be sure of any of the many explanations that were offered.

Peter

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2011, 06:25:05 AM »
In re-reading this thread, it is clear that Matt is following the classic Marco method. On the matter of knead time, my recollection is that Marco disagreed with the idea of kneading the dough for 20 to 30 minutes, as some of the VPN instructions apparently called for. See, for example, Marco's famous "crap" post at Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13378.html#msg13378. Another critical component to Marco's method was using a fermentation temperature of 18-20 degrees C, or 64.4-68 degrees F, which is roughly the range that Matt used. What I did not think to ask Matt earlier is whether he was using a temperature control unit or whether he was using a room temperature of 18-20 degrees C. If the fermentation temperature is much higher than the range that Marco advocated, then it would be natural to see a significantly greater rise, just as would occur with commercial yeast. In this respect, I believe that K (pizzablogger) correctly stated the case.



Peter

Peter,
I have 3 different fermentation chambers & purposely chose the ambient temperature in my basement to keep my method as traditional as possible.  Increasing the temperature of the bulk fermentation will lead to a dough with more expansion which is not what I'm after.  Once I form the panetti I move the dough boxes to a warmer location for their final fermentation.

Matt

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2011, 05:13:30 PM »
I picked up some traditional Fior Di Latte; unheated, unstretched & made from virgin curd.  There have been alot of questions as to why the fior di latte in Italy looks different than the one that we are used to.  I have mentioned this before; what we are use to seeing in North America is fresh mozzarella & not fior di latte.  As you can, see fior di latte is not stored in water & has a crumbly consistency.  I will post some more pictures once I open it up.

Matt

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2011, 05:24:02 PM »
Matt,

Would you post a picture of the label.

Thanks,
Craig
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Offline andreguidon

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2011, 05:30:56 PM »
Hey Matt, i use something similar to you fior di latte...

http://www.yema.com.br/produtos/mozzarella_marguerita.html
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Offline JConk007

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2011, 05:32:50 PM »
The american style fiore d latte , they even call it Fresh Mozzerella I am trying for 1st time this weekend this 3 lbs $11.47 at RD
John
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Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2011, 05:33:35 PM »
Matt,

Would you post a picture of the label.

Thanks,
Craig

Craig,
The only label per say was the weight & price. I bought it right from the factory, it was made this morning.  

Matt

Offline Essen1

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2011, 05:52:56 PM »
As you can, see fior di latte is not stored in water & has a crumbly consistency.  I will post some more pictures once I open it up.

Matt

Is it safe to say that it is also not as wet as regular fresh mozza?

If that's the case, I might be able to use it in my home oven.
Mike

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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2011, 06:26:02 PM »
Matt is the FDL you got made from Agerolese milk? Does the place you bought the cheese from only sell locally or do they have distributors?

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2011, 06:40:10 PM »
Is it safe to say that it is also not as wet as regular fresh mozza?

If that's the case, I might be able to use it in my home oven.

Mikey,
I think it breaks down quite easily. You will have better luck using trece which is like fresh mozzarella but a little more dry & you can pull it apart in strands.

Matt

Offline Essen1

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2011, 07:40:06 PM »
Mikey,
I think it breaks down quite easily. You will have better luck using trece which is like fresh mozzarella but a little more dry & you can pull it apart in strands.

Matt

Thank you very much, Sir! 

Thing is, I have never seen Trece around here. Even a quick online search didn't give me any leads to sources in my area.
Mike

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Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2011, 08:25:47 PM »
Thank you very much, Sir! 

Thing is, I have never seen Trece around here. Even a quick online search didn't give me any leads to sources in my area.

What about nodini?


 

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