What is true Napoletana Pizza? What defines it?

[Jackie Tran]

So I've been really curious about this as I have read and seen vastly opposing views.

Does the VPN set the standard on this?   There was a post recently that pointed to the idea that the VPN standards are really just for Americans.  That a lot of the top places in Naples are not VPN certified.  Is this true?

Is the cornicione soft or is there a slight crisp?  Can it be either or?  Is there a veneer or not? I have read  descriptions of both.  Is the cornicione suppose to be puffy or flat?  Again, I've seen both.  What is more traditional?

Flour: I know 00 flours are typical, but how many are cutting in a small percentage of a stronger flour.  I've heard that some of the top guys are cutting in some manitoba flour.  Is this a deviation?  

Yeast: I've read CY is standard, but apparently it can also be done with other types of yeast.  Doesn't the source of yeast affect the texture, flavor?  So for the places that use starters/preferments, are they considered untraditional NP pizza?

Fermentation: What is standard or protocol?  12-16 hours?  I know Keste's does close to 40 hours.

Sauce: SM tomatoes a must?  I think most would say so, but then I've heard that plum tomatoes aren't even the sweetest.  Used commercially b/c of how meaty and firm they are that they can be packaged well so commerically they make sense.

Cheese:  Bufala - standard or not?  I've heard opposing views here.
Da Michele uses fiore di latte and finishes with a soybean oil?    Not olive oil? why not?  

Toppings:  I've heard the traditional toppings such as margherita & marinara.  I've read the Keste's uses some far out toppings like lemons.  Is this an abomination?  Acceptable?  

The oven:  I know Marco and others say you have to bake it in an Napoletana made/style oven which I don't believe.  What do the experts say?

Bake times:  At what point is it not considered NP pizza anymore?   Beyond 2 minutes?  What if someone kept everything traditional but wanted a slight darker crispier rim and baked it out a touch longer?  Is it no longer technically NP pizza?

The look of the pie?  Charring, leoparding?  Again I've read that too much leopard is undesireable but we see a big differences in char and leoparding from place to place.

Who cares right?  I'll just make the kind of pizza that makes me happy, but I'm curious to know how many die hard fans we have and their thoughts.  Who has had the real NP pizza?

Also is (real) NP really that good?  How do you know what you are eating and how it compares to the standard?   What places would represent the true standard?  Do I really have to go to Naples to find out for myself?

Is the pizza from Naples really that great?  Some say yes and others say no.  

Concerning a few of the top places like Keste's & UPN, I have heard vastly different reviews.  From the pizza is the best I've had to it's terrible!  I know right...consider the source.   But is it b/c our taste are so vastly different or b/c it's really not that great?  

I would think that if I tasted something of such magnitude, that it would be able to completely alter my opinion of pizza, my standards, etc.    True or not?

Should we avoid talking about these things?  Does it make us too uncomfortable?  Anyone else curious about these things?

Chau

[Bill/SFNM]

1. Is the pizza from Naples really that great?   

2. Should we avoid talking about these things? 

1. IMO, yes. Go for a week and find out for yourself. But just because it is so special doesn't mean that you can't make something you like better.

2. Yes, waste of time, IMO. See #1. It's all about finding out what you like rather than copying. Picasso studied Rembrandt, but progressed through many vastly different styles throughout his life.

[pizzablogger]

EDIT:

Bill, you just said more in half the words and drivel I just wrote earlier.

Good stuff.

[BrickStoneOven]

A lot of the questions are more commercial vs home. Do you need a neapolitan oven to make neapolitan pizza,no. But if you have a pizzeria; the last thing you want to worry about is the oven not operating properly. At home we can watch 1 maybe 2 pizzas at a time. But when your at commercial level you can't afford to put all your attention on one pie you have to keep your eye on all of them. Da Michele use seed oil because it's cheaper. I guess Jeff Varasano didn't really like the pizza when he visited Naples.

[Jackie Tran]

Okay Bill, I guess I'll have to plan a trip sometime in the future and see for myself.

I still think it's a worthy topic of discussion.   But I would amend my post to not say "true" NP pizza.  How about typical NP pizza.   I'm not interested in copying it for the sake of copying, just interested in studying it.  Learning about it and other styles helps me develop more of idea of what I like or don't like.  

Can someone give me some ideas about typical NP pizza?  

Kelly, I did not know that you've had the good fortune to visit so many places.  I would love to hear your take on these questions here or in private.  

Chau

[TXCraig1]

I really don't expect to get any straight answers here but it would be nice for a change.  

I'll give you a straight answer - as straight as I can - and straight out of your list:  Who cares. I'll just make the kind of pizza that makes me happy.

And I'll eat it with the people who make me happy, and with it I'll drink the kind of wine that makes me happy!  

CL

EDIT: This is not to suggest that I'm not eager to visit Naples at some point in the not-so-distant future with the primary purpose of the trip being to try real Napoletan pizza.

[TXCraig1]

I will throw this in. I have not been to Italy, but I think this is on topic.

I have an aunt and uncle that became absolutely hooked on pizza after visiting Naples. Before their trip, pizza was just another kind of food. Now, I get emails from them telling me in detail about the pies they are eating - while they are eating them. They remind me of me.

CL

[Jackie Tran]

I will throw this in. I have not been to Italy, but I think this is on topic.

I have an aunt and uncle that became absolutely hooked on pizza after visiting Naples. Before their trip, pizza was just another kind of food. Now, I get emails from them telling me in detail about the pies they are eating - while they are eating them. They remind me of me.

CL

Yes, definitely what I'm looking for.  What makes NP so special?  Why is it relatively so unknown, mysterious?  Why all the confusion about it?

Who cares right?  But apparently we do care.  Why does it seem to attract the most views or attention on the board?   Do we even know what we are excited about?

Just curious....

Chau

[andreguidon]

Chau,

those are allot of questions!! but i think there are guidelines not a standard...does the american burger have a standard or any traditional dish all over the world??
i think the guidelines (this is my opinion) is trying to use the ingredients and procedures that they use in Italy, like italian flours, italian canned tomatoes, fermentation longer than 6-8h, good fresh mozzarella, under 90s bake and etc...
concerning the flour, manitoba is not HG flour, manitoba is milled from soft wheat so technically this is OK....
what for me is the big difference is that pizza is a "fast-food" (please dont interpret this the wrong way) in Italy, and in the US or other countries where VPN has certified pizzerias, pizza has become a gourmet dish... and VPN only certifies margherita and marinara, the other toppings are Xtras that the pizzerias offer using the same dough... even in Naples the have other toppings, but the traditional is the marinara and the margherita...
so lets all make the pizza that makes us Happy!!

[RobynB]

Alternate title:  How Many Topics Can One Post Discuss?

Seriously, you have so many things to discuss in there, it's hard to focus.  I'd love to see a separate topic for a few of them, and discuss each that way.  A couple notes:  food is subjective.  Very very much so.  And expectations can mess with your head, too.  When I went to UPN, I was expecting something like what you describe as "I would think that if I tasted something of such magnitude, that it would be able to completely alter my opinion of pizza, my standards, etc."  That was not my experience of UPN.  My epiphany about the pizza I want to make came elsewhere.  Without having been to Naples, I'm going on the interpretations found here.  Some have rocked my world, some haven't. 

I think a lot of what you're asking is authenticity vs SOMETHING ELSE, be it better or worse.  Does neapolitan-style pizza have to be authentic (by VPN standards or some other standard) to be great?  I don't believe that to be true, because I think local, fresh, etc is more important in some ways than "authentic".  Are canned SM tomatoes imported from Italy, even the REAL ones and not the ones we normally get, better than tomatoes from my garden that I process myself?  If that were true, what about the basil - nobody is importing basil fresh from Italy, but we obsess over "authentic" cheese and tomatoes and olive oil.  I haven't been to Italy but I've been to Israel twice, and the ingredients there taste different from the same ingredients here.  No question about it.  So yeah, I bet the pizza made in Naples DOES taste different than here, more authentic.  So where we can, we import ingredients, and where we can't, we improvise and try to improve the result.  That's what we're all doing on this forum, right? 

[Jet_deck]

"What the VPN has done is take the legends and mix them with some traditions and come out with a marketing tool. "Authentic" and "traditional" sound good, and they allow the pizza place to buy into the myth of a Platonic ideal of pizza. "


http://www.forbes.com/2002/08/21/0821feat.html

What would you expect for an association started in 1988 to recognize 300 years of pizzamaking? A few hundred dollars will get you certified (if you pass), and sign with the puppet logo.

[Jackie Tran]

David, Da Michele is the most famous pizzeria in Naples right?  And they use seed oil b/c it's cheaper?     That doesn't make any sense.  Why not use yesterday's cheese b/c it's cheaper as well? Why fresh cheese?  Is the idea to make the best pizza possible or save $ and make a profit, or both?

I agree with your point about having an efficient oven for commercial use, but I  believe I read a post by Marco that said you can not make NP pizza without a NP oven.  Of course I don't believe that, but why would he say that?  Could it be true?  

Nice response Andre.  I like the idea of looking at those "standards" as guidelines.  I would imagine in Naples, there is one predominant style of pizza just like NY has a certain predominant style.  

Andre, I'm curious to know more about this manitoba flour that they use.   So is this the same Manitoba flour from Canada?
So it sounds like it comes down to preferences.  NP is definitely a certain style but it doesn't sound like it's written in stone despite what the VPN says.

Robyn - the many topics are all related to the NP style.  I'm simply trying to gather some opinions from the forum members on their own thoughts of NP pizza.  It doesn't have to be right or wrong.  I'd like to just discuss it.  What the heck is wrong with that???  Why are members hesitant about posting an opinion online?

You make a good point about fresh tomatoes vs canned.  Obviously we use canned SM b/c we can't get the real fresh SMs so that's silly that canned SM tomatoes is part of the standard.  

Gene - Nice find!  It seems as though the VPN has capitalized on the tradition of NP pizza.

I don't mind that Naples has a very special type of pizza or the original pizza, or that it's very good.  But until I can go and find out for myself, I'd like to hear from those who have had it.  What makes it so
good to you?  Including NP pizza here in the states.   How is it define in your opinion.  It doesn't have to be right or wrong.  

This is a flame free zone folks.  

Chau

[andreguidon]

Chau, about manitoba...

Wheat flour from the Milling and sifting of soft wheat from North America and Canada.

http://www.le5stagioni.it/le5stagioniITA/prodotti-manitoba.html

http://jennysfood.blogspot.com/2009/10/manitoba-flour-in-italy.html

[widespreadpizza]

Chau,  I never thought you would end up with all these questions,  not you.  I thought they had all been taken care of by now,  but I do know how wood ovens can ,ess with your head.  To summarize,  Marco provided us great wisdom,  but much of what he said applied to commercial operations.   Us mortals can only do what we can do with what we have,  meaning ingredients and ovens.  Your pizza is already better than 99% of the rest of the planets.  I know its that 1%magic you are looking for.  I am still lokking for it too.  Bottom line,  until I get to Naples,  I rest assured that the magic will be there waiting,  but until then I think most of us are doing pretty good.  -marc

[Jackie Tran]

Andre, thanks for the link and info.

  Marc, you would be surprise by how little I really know.   The WFO is fine and I can make a really good product with it already, something that  I enjoy a lot.   But for me, there's still uncharted territory like NP pizza.  And possibly undiscovered dimensions beyond that. I believe there are reasons why so many are so crazy about NP pizza and I would like to know those reasons.   I was just wondering how much of it is hyped up and how much is truth.   

I think when some of our members make it to the holy land, that we may gain 'true' understanding or have experiences like Jeff V. or Chris B. and that would be okay as well.   In the end, I may have to agree with Bill in that NP is it's own specialty but there are others one may prefer more.  No big deal...

Cheers,
Chau

[norma427]

Chau,

I really like the Manitoba flour that Paul (PaulsPizza) sent me.  If you are interested in the pictures of those pies made with Manitoba flour there are at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12290.msg119413.html#msg119413 baked in the deck oven with a starter (milk kefir)and also at Reply 40 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12290.msg121224.html#msg121224 using Paul’s Manitoba flour with a milk kefir starter.

Didn’t Paul also send you Manitoba flour to try?

To answer one of your questions on this thread about Neapolitan pies, I did get to taste Keste’s pizza and thought it was excellent.  In experimenting with other doughs in Steve’s (Ev) WFO, I also thought they did turn out very good too.  Steve did use John’s Keste’s clone different times in his WFO and had great results too.  I really don’t think, at least in my opinion, that to get a great Neapolitan pizza, you need to follow all the rules exactly.  I think it all is in personal taste or what someone expects from a Neapolitan pie.

Caleb Schiff of Pizzicletta is soon going to be opening his pizza business in Flagstaff and posts on Slice about opening his own pizzeria. http://www.pizzicletta.com/Pizzicletta.html http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/05/building-a-pizzeria-behind-the-scenes.html and other posts on Slice about opening his own Pizzeria. Caleb has been to Italy and tasted many different Neapolitan pies and has a blog about his visit to Italy and tasting those pies if you are interested.   http://pizzicletta.blogspot.com/2010/11/balance-of-great-neapolitan-pizza.html Maybe Caleb could answer some of your questions if he has time.

Norma

[wucactus1]

Chau I can understand this drive to "need to know"  I have the same drive/obsession? with UPN and motorinos pizzas.  Are these pizzas VPN? No, but for some reason, they represent for me the gold standard of what I want to achieve.  There methods aren't exactly clear to me, but I want them to be clear, I want to know everything about their pizza and why it is the way it is.  Part of this is generated by the hype that surrounds them, both Mathieau and Anthony, but it is not just the hype that ensues my geekdom.  It is the respect I have from them and what they have done.  Having not eaten at a lot of neapolitan places, (only one actually---Its VPN and garbage, smashingtomato.com, horribly inconsistent and just plain bland) my scope of what pizza "should" taste like is narrow, not until this past weekend did I have another "neapolitan" pizza and I would have to say the results are very similar to what I am producing at home in the electric, but does this mean I have, like you I believe I have something, but IT I dont know...and This is where Motorino and UPN come in.  I am constantly visually comparing my pizzas to theirs, tracking down reviews and contrasting the taste descriptions with mine, hopefully someday I will get to try both places would love nothing more to be just blown away by their quality, but until then Im going to keep making my "nearlypolitan" pizzas and enjoying them as what they are to me...delicious and within my scope of reference the most neapolitan pizza I have had.  Its about context and frame of reference.  If looks like a duck, moves like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it must be a duck...the same goes for pizza...in some respect, but there are always the subtle differences in technique or process that separate us from one another and make the pizza making experience unique.  In my eyes the VPN at an exaggerated level is like the McDonalds of neapolitan pizza.  placing strict regulations on process and ingredients, where if done properly we could easily travel from place to place having the same boring pizza, just as I could get the same mcdouble here in kentucky or in asia.  "Quality" control at this level is inversely productive for the growth of something so artistic as pizza and would be detrimental to the community, experience, and culture that revolves around it...sorry if this incoherent stream of somewhat consciousness is confusing...you shouldnt expect anything more, its 11:30 and besides this thread the only other thing occupying my thoughts  is my late night cereal, speaking of cereal.

[RobynB]

wucactus1 - I've seen enough photos of your pizzas to know that you make some beautiful pies.  Yet for you, the "holy grail" is UPN / Motorino pizza, which you have never eaten?  How do you know you're not already there, or even better?  I understand being impressed with their success, but what makes you sure you would love their actual pizza so much?  I'm curious because I started my pizza obsession with a similar focus - I knew there was better pizza out there, I'd never actually had it but I just knew it had to exist.  I tried to make stuff at home with just recipes from some cookbooks and magazines, total failures, then finally discovered the online pizza goldmine of information.  From all I'd read I compiled a list of the pizza places I dreamed of trying.  I live in N. California, so obviously I'm hitting the ones in the Bay Area.  But interestingly enough, as I work my way through my list here, I'm finding a lot of surprises.  Some of the places that I most looked forward to have not impressed me that much or were very different than I expected.  I know our tastes are personal and subjective, but I also really wonder how much our expectations color our experiences... 

[wucactus1]

I only hopemy pizza isnt as good or better than theirs, It would be just wrong, Because I for one am not 100% satisfied with my pies as they are now, the texture is wonderful and the flavor is almost there 80%, there is just something missing, this result is good and I do believe I produce it consistently enough and would( I imagine) do well as a commercial pizza in the right environment, but for me to think that this pizza is as good as the "legends" would be sad.  I like to imagine, as you know, that there pizza is unattainable...a goal that cant be accomplished do to the perpetual complexity that it creates...Each time I make a pizza I hope it is there, but no matter what I want more and this more in theory can only be satisfied by one of their "perfect pizzas", but the sad thing is once and if I have them I will want to match it if i havent already and then push past it attaining something better than perfect...This again is a not so coherent post...more in the morning!

[wucactus1]

I dont think I have reached it yet...